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Post by antipodesjosh on Mar 16, 2023 2:37:49 GMT -6
The Austrian Audio OCC8 has grown on me, it's neither dark nor bright but very very smooth. Yeah I have a pair of these, they are indeed smooth! They sound pretty true to source, I use them as choir mics for live sound. I do think I want another pair with more of an obvious flavour, though. |
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Post by copperx on Mar 16, 2023 10:47:33 GMT -6
If you change your mind on vintage, the Schoeps M221B tube SDC might be a better choice than the KM84.
On the cheaper side of things, have you tried the Shure KSM141 specifically? It is dark.
Have you tried the ribbon Coles 4038? Not too expensive for what it is, and the first ribbon I would try for strings. Modern, and you can get a matched pair for about 3k.
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Post by Ward on Mar 16, 2023 11:30:48 GMT -6
DARK?  I wouldn't classify the Beyer MC930s as dark.... But since we're on the subject, OG (moldy old) AKG C460s are neutral, which in today's world means dark. |
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Post by ab101 on Mar 16, 2023 12:43:11 GMT -6
My Sennheiser 8040s might be considered a little bit dark. If you can find the 8020s (the omnis) they have more bottom.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Mar 16, 2023 13:07:04 GMT -6
See if you can find some of the old Sony SDCs. The C36 rolls off above 10k (I believe the C35 is the end address version of the same mic). The C55p is quite similar to a KM84 but not as extended in the highs. The Austrian Audio OCC8 has grown on me, it's neither dark nor bright but very very smooth. As the resident Sony mic fan and the guy who hogs the Sony SDC’s of the 7 I own the only one I would call “ dark “ is a C36 that took way to much physical abuse before I bought it. I waited till today because I knew I would have the chance to put a couple up on a nice Martin this AM. While compared to most modern SDC’s the Sonys are a bit rolled off the way they distort in the HF kind of like a KM84 reminds me more of a flat mic rather than a dark or dull mic. I have said this before and I will say it again concepts like Bright, Dark, or Dull have as much to do with how a transducer distorts as the Freq. Response, the frequency response is very easily measured and described in fairly precise terms such as “ roll off “ or “ Boost” and we can attribute an approximate corner Freq and Decibel value. How a transducer distorts unfortunately is a world of less precision where our use of descriptive language serves us far better. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Mar 16, 2023 13:09:05 GMT -6
Greetings. I've been looking for darker SDCs for instrument mic'ing. My two current faves, tho I wouldn't call them dark, are the AKG C-460-B and the venerable Shure SM-81. The top end on both is close to what I seek; although they're pretty flat, they can still be a bit more crispy than I want. Preamps are all Grace. I've tried many other well-known SDCs (Neumann, AKG, Gefell, Shure KSM series, Oktava, et. al.), and these two are the ones thus far. I'd still like to find something a little darker on top. Please don't say KM-84s, as that's way out of my budget, and I'm not a fan of maintaining vintage gear. I've tried various ribbons (Royer, Mesanovic, Cascasde), and they're just too dark on top and lack definition for what I want to hear. I'm going for clean/accurate, not vintage/muddy/saturated. I want to think there must be some happy medium between ribbons and the 81/460. Or maybe not. Suggestions? TIA, -09 I’m going to throw this out there, what sample rate and conversion are you using? Because both have definite effects on the sound of HF. |
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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 16, 2023 20:20:45 GMT -6
Greetings. I've been looking for darker SDCs for instrument mic'ing. My two current faves, tho I wouldn't call them dark, are the AKG C-460-B and the venerable Shure SM-81. The top end on both is close to what I seek; although they're pretty flat, they can still be a bit more crispy than I want. Preamps are all Grace. I've tried many other well-known SDCs (Neumann, AKG, Gefell, Shure KSM series, Oktava, et. al.), and these two are the ones thus far. I'd still like to find something a little darker on top. Please don't say KM-84s, as that's way out of my budget, and I'm not a fan of maintaining vintage gear. I've tried various ribbons (Royer, Mesanovic, Cascasde), and they're just too dark on top and lack definition for what I want to hear. I'm going for clean/accurate, not vintage/muddy/saturated. I want to think there must be some happy medium between ribbons and the 81/460. Or maybe not. Suggestions? TIA, -09 I’m going to throw this out there, what sample rate and conversion are you using? Because both have definite effects on the sound of HF. That's a really great point, Eric. |
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Dark SDCs?
Mar 16, 2023 22:15:26 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by copperx on Mar 16, 2023 22:15:26 GMT -6
I’m going to throw this out there, what sample rate and conversion are you using? Because both have definite effects on the sound of HF. That's a really great point, Eric. Is it? I'm really interested in this. I mean, can that effect can even be compared to the effect of a microphone? |
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Post by RealNoob on Mar 16, 2023 22:22:04 GMT -6
Not dark but certainly "round": The Beesneez LuLu FETs ~800 for a pair plus shipping. I use them as live overheads all the time. While mixing, the master has 3db top added and at times, I can still a bit to taste on the drum bus. I have never had to soften them or de-ess them. beesneezproaudio.com/product/lulu-fet-pair/?wmc-currency=USD |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Mar 17, 2023 6:10:57 GMT -6
That's a really great point, Eric. Is it? I'm really interested in this. I mean, can that effect can even be compared to the effect of a microphone? He is hearing something in the HF he describes as bright with pretty much everything he try’s so looking at common denominator as well as the fact that HF and often brightness is a common complaint about digital, so it’s at least worth some investigating. |
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Post by Omicron9 on Mar 17, 2023 9:46:44 GMT -6
Greetings. I've been looking for darker SDCs for instrument mic'ing. My two current faves, tho I wouldn't call them dark, are the AKG C-460-B and the venerable Shure SM-81. The top end on both is close to what I seek; although they're pretty flat, they can still be a bit more crispy than I want. Preamps are all Grace. I've tried many other well-known SDCs (Neumann, AKG, Gefell, Shure KSM series, Oktava, et. al.), and these two are the ones thus far. I'd still like to find something a little darker on top. Please don't say KM-84s, as that's way out of my budget, and I'm not a fan of maintaining vintage gear. I've tried various ribbons (Royer, Mesanovic, Cascasde), and they're just too dark on top and lack definition for what I want to hear. I'm going for clean/accurate, not vintage/muddy/saturated. I want to think there must be some happy medium between ribbons and the 81/460. Or maybe not. Suggestions? TIA, -09 I’m going to throw this out there, what sample rate and conversion are you using? Because both have definite effects on the sound of HF. Usually 24/96. |
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Post by Omicron9 on Mar 17, 2023 9:56:27 GMT -6
Not dark but certainly "round": The Beesneez LuLu FETs ~800 for a pair plus shipping. I use them as live overheads all the time. While mixing, the master has 3db top added and at times, I can still a bit to taste on the drum bus. I have never had to soften them or de-ess them. beesneezproaudio.com/product/lulu-fet-pair/?wmc-currency=USDThanks, @robsmith. The FR curve on these looks promising. Yes, I know you can't tell how a mic is going to sound/perform from an FR curve, but it can give you some basic idea of what to expect. The downside here is that I'm in the US, and I don't want to deal with a company in Australia. Sometimes gear has to be shipped back to the manufacturer for maintenance/repair, and shipping to/from AUS isn't something that appeals to me. Side note having nothing to do with audio: WHY do mic makers paint mics? My opinion only: It looks incredibly cheap/cheesy, and it's going to wear and look even worse over time. And the Beesknees logo: I don't even have the language skills to describe that, other than "yeesh." <rant mode off> Thanks, -09 |
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Post by ab101 on Mar 17, 2023 10:28:51 GMT -6
Not dark but certainly "round": The Beesneez LuLu FETs ~800 for a pair plus shipping. I use them as live overheads all the time. While mixing, the master has 3db top added and at times, I can still a bit to taste on the drum bus. I have never had to soften them or de-ess them. beesneezproaudio.com/product/lulu-fet-pair/?wmc-currency=USDThanks, @robsmith. The FR curve on these looks promising. Yes, I know you can't tell how a mic is going to sound/perform from an FR curve, but it can give you some basic idea of what to expect. The downside here is that I'm in the US, and I don't want to deal with a company in Australia. Sometimes gear has to be shipped back to the manufacturer for maintenance/repair, and shipping to/from AUS isn't something that appeals to me. Side note having nothing to do with audio: WHY do mic makers paint mics? My opinion only: It looks incredibly cheap/cheesy, and it's going to wear and look even worse over time. And the Beesknees logo: I don't even have the language skills to describe that, other than "yeesh." <rant mode off> Thanks, -09 Some interesting questions. Does Sennheiser and Neumann repair in the U.S.? There are so many great products made outside the U.S., including Flea, Gyraf, Buzz Audio, Beesneez, Tube Tech (Cl1b), etc. The U.S. is probably a big market for a lot of companies. So it would seem to make sense to have U.S. places for repairs under warranty or a fast track way of repairing under warranty without the customer enduring shipping costs. Having said that, I have never experienced any real problem with buying from overseas. As far as Beesneez goes, Ben has committed to better communication and it appears like he is doing that already. Since I am a project studio person I do not really care about the paint, logo or names like Flea. All these various mic makers are creating a competitive environment which benefits everyone, in fact with so much competition, it benefits the consumer perhaps more than the maker. I really doubt the homes that line the beaches of Malibu are owned by pro audio boutique designer/makers. |
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Post by drumsound on Mar 17, 2023 10:35:20 GMT -6
Not dark but certainly "round": The Beesneez LuLu FETs ~800 for a pair plus shipping. I use them as live overheads all the time. While mixing, the master has 3db top added and at times, I can still a bit to taste on the drum bus. I have never had to soften them or de-ess them. beesneezproaudio.com/product/lulu-fet-pair/?wmc-currency=USDThanks, @robsmith. The FR curve on these looks promising. Yes, I know you can't tell how a mic is going to sound/perform from an FR curve, but it can give you some basic idea of what to expect. The downside here is that I'm in the US, and I don't want to deal with a company in Australia. Sometimes gear has to be shipped back to the manufacturer for maintenance/repair, and shipping to/from AUS isn't something that appeals to me. Side note having nothing to do with audio: WHY do mic makers paint mics? My opinion only: It looks incredibly cheap/cheesy, and it's going to wear and look even worse over time. And the Beesknees logo: I don't even have the language skills to describe that, other than "yeesh." <rant mode off> Thanks, -09 I've never been a fan of that logo or it's size compared to the mics. I'd like to see more manufactures powder coat in different colors, but that's just because I'm bored with silver or black mics. I have an iSK B2 from the early run and they sent 2 bodies. It was shipped with a white body installed, but a blue optional body was included. I swapped them immediately. |
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Post by RealNoob on Mar 17, 2023 10:37:06 GMT -6
I have the LuLu's and an LDC from BN. the power supply I. haven't had a lick of issues with the LuLu's. I have had them 10 years, I think.
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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 17, 2023 15:49:16 GMT -6
That's a really great point, Eric. Is it? I'm really interested in this. I mean, can that effect can even be compared to the effect of a microphone? I mean, depending on your converters, yeah, it can make a very noticeable difference. But as he's already tracking at 24/96, I would say it's probably a moot point. |
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Post by collywobble on Mar 17, 2023 17:08:39 GMT -6
As the resident Sony mic fan and the guy who hogs the Sony SDC’s of the 7 I own the only one I would call “ dark “ is a C36 that took way to much physical abuse before I bought it. I waited till today because I knew I would have the chance to put a couple up on a nice Martin this AM. While compared to most modern SDC’s the Sonys are a bit rolled off the way they distort in the HF kind of like a KM84 reminds me more of a flat mic rather than a dark or dull mic. Tell me more about the other six. I find these Sony mics fascinating and there is so little info about them out there. I've only recently managed to track down a C55p, which seems really cool. |
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ericn
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Dark SDCs?
Mar 17, 2023 17:54:12 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by ericn on Mar 17, 2023 17:54:12 GMT -6
As the resident Sony mic fan and the guy who hogs the Sony SDC’s of the 7 I own the only one I would call “ dark “ is a C36 that took way to much physical abuse before I bought it. I waited till today because I knew I would have the chance to put a couple up on a nice Martin this AM. While compared to most modern SDC’s the Sonys are a bit rolled off the way they distort in the HF kind of like a KM84 reminds me more of a flat mic rather than a dark or dull mic. Tell me more about the other six. I find these Sony mics fascinating and there is so little info about them out there. I've only recently managed to track down a C55p, which seems really cool. Yeah, the Sony’s fly under the radar but most of those who have been around know them well. C36 is the side address version of the C35, I have been told electronics and capsule are the same as your C55, but in a more traditional pencil package. For those of you who are not familiar the C55 is where Blue got the idea for the Dragonfly, the capsule can be positioned in either end addresses, side addresses or In between, very versatile but a bit bulky. The C535 ( don’t confuse it with the AKG stage vocal condenser) same capsule quieter electronics, C536 is the side address version of the C535. It was actually one of my C535’s that was picked over the KM84 in the Giant Tape Op SDC shoot out Mike Jasper did years ago in the unobtainable category. Very similar to a KM84 except that the Sonys feel like they have a touch of compression. There was a rumor a 535 was used on Clapton’s unplugged as the main guitar mic, it wasn’t I asked Dave Hewitt. Dave did tell me he had some C535’s and C48’s that were stolen years ago. Our own Rob Schnaph has said he likes the Omni version but I have yet to confirm an Omni was ever available. Sony C series are great true condenser’s the C500, C48, and C37/38 family are all quality LDC’s, however the vintage prices fluctuate. The Dynamics are not that impressive, The older Sony wireless systems were great except for the dynamic capsules and were used by many Broadcasters, NFL and NCAA teams ( yeah I sold a bunch of them). The ECM electret Lavs are Still used by all kinds of Broadcasters, but avoid the non LAV ECM’s over time they lose output level and I hate that fact because for simple easy set up inexpensive single point stereo work I sold a ton of the ECM M/S mics, 20 years later I feel guilty that these people have a very, very quiet but nice sounding mic. |
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Post by collywobble on Mar 18, 2023 3:28:02 GMT -6
Thanks Eric.
The only ones I have are the C36 and the C55. There is definitely a difference in sound between them -- the C36 rolls off sharply above 10k whereas the C55 keeps going to at least 15k. I wonder what the cause of that is, if they have the same capsule and electronics?
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Post by Omicron9 on Mar 19, 2023 8:47:23 GMT -6
Is it? I'm really interested in this. I mean, can that effect can even be compared to the effect of a microphone? I mean, depending on your converters, yeah, it can make a very noticeable difference. But as he's already tracking at 24/96, I would say it's probably a moot point. When I say it's a bit brighter than I want, I don't mean the recorded tracks (well obviously they are, too). I mean the mics. This is with monitoring right off the interface, not the DAW or recorded tracks. In fact, this is doing mic tests without the DAW even being powered on. -09 |
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Post by Omicron9 on Mar 19, 2023 8:50:08 GMT -6
Not dark but certainly "round": The Beesneez LuLu FETs ~800 for a pair plus shipping. I use them as live overheads all the time. While mixing, the master has 3db top added and at times, I can still a bit to taste on the drum bus. I have never had to soften them or de-ess them. beesneezproaudio.com/product/lulu-fet-pair/?wmc-currency=USDThanks, @robsmith. The FR curve on these looks promising. Yes, I know you can't tell how a mic is going to sound/perform from an FR curve, but it can give you some basic idea of what to expect. The downside here is that I'm in the US, and I don't want to deal with a company in Australia. Sometimes gear has to be shipped back to the manufacturer for maintenance/repair, and shipping to/from AUS isn't something that appeals to me. Side note having nothing to do with audio: WHY do mic makers paint mics? My opinion only: It looks incredibly cheap/cheesy, and it's going to wear and look even worse over time. And the Beesknees logo: I don't even have the language skills to describe that, other than "yeesh." <rant mode off> Thanks, -09 A bit more clarity, as I was thinking this but didn't type it. Stupid brain. Painted SDCs that get mounted in a tight body-gripping mic clip would, I'd think, get scratched by the mic clips and that paint would flake off and further deteriorate before long and look less than ideal. Plus again, and just my opinion: I'm perfectly happy with bare-metal mics. The painted ones remind me too much of the MXL painted mics and again, to me, look super cheap. Just one person's preferences. Or.... perhaps painted-mic makers could offer an unpainted option? Might even be a few $ cheaper, too. -09 |
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Post by drumsound on Mar 19, 2023 10:37:51 GMT -6
Thanks, @robsmith. The FR curve on these looks promising. Yes, I know you can't tell how a mic is going to sound/perform from an FR curve, but it can give you some basic idea of what to expect. The downside here is that I'm in the US, and I don't want to deal with a company in Australia. Sometimes gear has to be shipped back to the manufacturer for maintenance/repair, and shipping to/from AUS isn't something that appeals to me. Side note having nothing to do with audio: WHY do mic makers paint mics? My opinion only: It looks incredibly cheap/cheesy, and it's going to wear and look even worse over time. And the Beesknees logo: I don't even have the language skills to describe that, other than "yeesh." <rant mode off> Thanks, -09 A bit more clarity, as I was thinking this but didn't type it. Stupid brain. Painted SDCs that get mounted in a tight body-gripping mic clip would, I'd think, get scratched by the mic clips and that paint would flake off and further deteriorate before long and look less than ideal. Plus again, and just my opinion: I'm perfectly happy with bare-metal mics. The painted ones remind me too much of the MXL painted mics and again, to me, look super cheap. Just one person's preferences. Or.... perhaps painted-mic makers could offer an unpainted option? Might even be a few $ cheaper, too. -09 If the bodies are powder coated they should take anything a recording engineer throws at them. The powder coat car chassis for a reasons. |
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Post by Omicron9 on Mar 20, 2023 11:19:21 GMT -6
A bit more clarity, as I was thinking this but didn't type it. Stupid brain. Painted SDCs that get mounted in a tight body-gripping mic clip would, I'd think, get scratched by the mic clips and that paint would flake off and further deteriorate before long and look less than ideal. Plus again, and just my opinion: I'm perfectly happy with bare-metal mics. The painted ones remind me too much of the MXL painted mics and again, to me, look super cheap. Just one person's preferences. Or.... perhaps painted-mic makers could offer an unpainted option? Might even be a few $ cheaper, too. -09 If the bodies are powder coated they should take anything a recording engineer throws at them. The powder coat car chassis for a reasons. Thanks for the clarification, drumsound; I didn't know that. Score 1 point for paint durability, but I still think they look like poop. That said, paint on a mic body wouldn't prevent me from buying it if it were the right mic. -09 |
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Post by revevague on Mar 25, 2023 11:29:21 GMT -6
Chiming in to say the Line Audio CM4 are fantastic. I got them a couple years back and they have such a wonderful mellow top end. Really easy to use and EQ. Also really affordable (I think I got the pair from Nohype Audio). The only downside is they are super small and you have to be careful not to cover the vents when using the microphone clip.
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Post by Locomotive Audio on Mar 27, 2023 15:27:36 GMT -6
86b-2 better? Not sure. If you are updating the 286 with a few twists and making it cheaper i am not sure if the term better applies. Although i have not used a 286 i would be interested in testing the two out. Frankly, I hope the 286a is better because I have it and appears to be the hand-wired version. But for the sake of the wonderful Locomotive people and their customers, I hope the 86b-2 is great. I have a hard time believing that Locomotive would put out anything that is not great. Hey Guys, Locomotive 86B-2 is the same circuit as the 286A. Just not hardwired. :-) |
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I wouldn't classify the Beyer MC930s as dark....
