ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,906 
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Post by ericn on Mar 9, 2023 21:05:03 GMT -6
Don't be afraid to de-ess your overheads. That's exactly what I do. Good advice. Considering De easers are hit and misss dynamic EQ or play with side chain. Also since you are talking “ bright” you can deal with broader EQ. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 9, 2023 21:09:04 GMT -6
That's exactly what I do. Good advice. Considering De easers are hit and misss dynamic EQ or play with side chain. Also since you are talking “ bright” you can deal with broader EQ. I generally take the top off with a high shelf and then de-ess the whole kit to target high hat control. But high shelf does the heavy lifting. |
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Post by Hudsonic on Mar 10, 2023 6:01:30 GMT -6
You could consider making a strong move to Beyerdynamic MC 930 mics. An excellent darker cardioid made in Germany. Reasonable price too.
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Post by Omicron9 on Mar 10, 2023 10:58:11 GMT -6
If you have them available, try 414 bULS. I know they aren't SDCs but they are kind of the opposite of EBs and the newer 414s. I've been on the hunt for one of those at a reasonable price for a while. Seems like people want to trade them for bricks of gold these days. There was one for sale locally for $1k that looked like it had been fished out of the back of a dump truck. Sounded clean but I just couldn't work up the confidence to take a chance. Thing was seriously beat up. $1k. +1. Last time I looked at B-ULS prices (a year or 2 ago), I was stunned. But hey, they're "vintage," so that automatically makes them worth far more, right? <snark mode off> -09 |
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Post by Omicron9 on Mar 10, 2023 10:59:39 GMT -6
I don't find my Oktava 012's to be dark at all. I find them quite bright actually no matter what I run them through. I guess it's relative because I find all SDC's very bright and the 012's are at least tolerable enough that use them in some places. Following this thread with interest. I'd love to be able to set up some overheads where I don't immediately have to roll off the top. Agreed. I find the Oktava 012 to be brighter on top than the SM-81. -09 |
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Post by Omicron9 on Mar 10, 2023 11:00:46 GMT -6
I don't find my Oktava 012's to be dark at all. I find them quite bright actually no matter what I run them through. I guess it's relative because I find all SDC's very bright and the 012's are at least tolerable enough that use them in some places. Following this thread with interest. I'd love to be able to set up some overheads where I don't immediately have to roll off the top. I'm curious, why use SDCs at all? I'm kinda in the same boat, I almost always find any SDC too bright for what I want. Not necessarily 'bad' bright, but just so much air. I dunno, I feel like every few months I try to incorporate SDCs again, and still just prefer LDCs, dynamics, ribbons. For me, I mic just about everything in stereo. I can never get the stereo field or separation I want with LDCs. SDCs always bring the stereo field that I want. But that's just me. -09 |
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Post by Omicron9 on Mar 10, 2023 11:16:05 GMT -6
...snip...."Not for every project" being the key words here. I wish that these forums included everyone's typical style that they work in and their personal preference as well with every post. ...snip. Emphasis added. Good idea, gravesnumber9. I'm doing all acoustic/classical-type (solo and chamber) tracking. Studio; not live concerts. Strings and woodwinds. Accuracy; not color or character for pres. Someone suggested losing the Grace pres, but I love them. They're not going anywhere. I've had various Syteks, Millennias, True, etc. The Grace does exactly what I want for what I'm doing. Thanks to everyone for all the thoughtful suggestions; I really appreciate it. -09 |
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Post by drumsound on Mar 10, 2023 11:28:29 GMT -6
I've been on the hunt for one of those at a reasonable price for a while. Seems like people want to trade them for bricks of gold these days. There was one for sale locally for $1k that looked like it had been fished out of the back of a dump truck. Sounded clean but I just couldn't work up the confidence to take a chance. Thing was seriously beat up. $1k. +1. Last time I looked at B-ULS prices (a year or 2 ago), I was stunned. But hey, they're "vintage," so that automatically makes them worth far more, right? <snark mode off> -09 If I see a listing that says "vintage" or "rare" I generally don't even open the add. Those terms immediately mean "priced higher than should be." |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 10, 2023 11:36:47 GMT -6
+1. Last time I looked at B-ULS prices (a year or 2 ago), I was stunned. But hey, they're "vintage," so that automatically makes them worth far more, right? <snark mode off> -09 If I see a listing that says "vintage" or "rare" I generally don't even open the add. Those terms immediately mean "priced higher than should be." It's the audio gear equivalent of "charming" for houses. Oh the house is "charming?" So it's small and needs a ton of renovation. Got it. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 10, 2023 11:37:55 GMT -6
...snip...."Not for every project" being the key words here. I wish that these forums included everyone's typical style that they work in and their personal preference as well with every post. ...snip. Emphasis added. Good idea, gravesnumber9. I'm doing all acoustic/classical-type (solo and chamber) tracking. Studio; not live concerts. Strings and woodwinds. Accuracy; not color or character for pres. Someone suggested losing the Grace pres, but I love them. They're not going anywhere. I've had various Syteks, Millennias, True, etc. The Grace does exactly what I want for what I'm doing. Thanks to everyone for all the thoughtful suggestions; I really appreciate it. -09 See now this really makes a lot more sense for why you need stereo separation. Context is everything. |
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Post by EmRR on Mar 10, 2023 12:23:40 GMT -6
I'm doing all acoustic/classical-type (solo and chamber) tracking. Studio; not live concerts. Strings and woodwinds. Accuracy; not color or character for pres. Someone suggested losing the Grace pres, but I love them. They're not going anywhere. I've had various Syteks, Millennias, True, etc. The Grace does exactly what I want for what I'm doing. Thanks to everyone for all the thoughtful suggestions; I really appreciate it. -09 Ah, well then the MKH, or flat Neumann omni, or flat Schoeps are probably exactly what you wold want if in budget. The Line Audio are solid options too. I do wonder about the self noise of the Line Audio for some things, I've only used those as room ambience way back in a room with a PA, I can definitely hear the hiss bringing them up into the picture. |
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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 10, 2023 12:25:21 GMT -6
...snip...."Not for every project" being the key words here. I wish that these forums included everyone's typical style that they work in and their personal preference as well with every post. ...snip. Emphasis added. Good idea, gravesnumber9. I'm doing all acoustic/classical-type (solo and chamber) tracking. Studio; not live concerts. Strings and woodwinds. Accuracy; not color or character for pres. Someone suggested losing the Grace pres, but I love them. They're not going anywhere. I've had various Syteks, Millennias, True, etc. The Grace does exactly what I want for what I'm doing. Thanks to everyone for all the thoughtful suggestions; I really appreciate it. -09 Ahhh, that's helpful. Given all of that, it's a little harder to say whether you would dig the Soyuz or not. Some classical guys love them, some find them too colored. Doug's recommendation of the Senn MKH mics is a good one. As is plinker 's Line Audio suggestion. Also, have you ever tried any Earthworks? I wouldn't describe them as "dark," but I would describe them as "accurate." And regarding the Grace preamp, I think what people mean by "try a different pre" is just that you're clearly not wowed by any SDC's frequency content. Maybe it's time to think about the mic and mic pre as a "unit." You may love the Grace, but by your own admission, you don't love any of the "SDC+Grace" units. There's more than one way to get to a darker, more controlled top end. Microphone is one way. Mic Preamp is another. The Grace is presenting honestly what information arrives at its input. Maybe you need a pre that doesn't present the input information as honestly, but rather darkens the top. Maybe you only use that new preamp with your SDCs, and not on anything else. Just a thought. EDIT: Doug responded at the same time I did and beat me to some of my points! |
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Post by drumsound on Mar 10, 2023 14:15:07 GMT -6
If I see a listing that says "vintage" or "rare" I generally don't even open the add. Those terms immediately mean "priced higher than should be." It's the audio gear equivalent of "charming" for houses. Oh the house is "charming?" So it's small and needs a ton of renovation. Got it. 100% |
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Dark SDCs?
Mar 11, 2023 11:35:02 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by Tbone81 on Mar 11, 2023 11:35:02 GMT -6
Lulu fets fit the description of “dark” (or flat depending on you’re perspective).
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Post by trakworxmastering on Mar 11, 2023 12:46:07 GMT -6
Greetings. I've been looking for darker SDCs for instrument mic'ing. My two current faves, tho I wouldn't call them dark, are the AKG C-460-B and the venerable Shure SM-81. The top end on both is close to what I seek; although they're pretty flat, they can still be a bit more crispy than I want. Preamps are all Grace. I've tried many other well-known SDCs (Neumann, AKG, Gefell, Shure KSM series, Oktava, et. al.), and these two are the ones thus far. I'd still like to find something a little darker on top. Please don't say KM-84s, as that's way out of my budget, and I'm not a fan of maintaining vintage gear. I've tried various ribbons (Royer, Mesanovic, Cascasde), and they're just too dark on top and lack definition for what I want to hear. I'm going for clean/accurate, not vintage/muddy/saturated. I want to think there must be some happy medium between ribbons and the 81/460. Or maybe not. Suggestions? TIA, -09 Have you tried just putting a sock on it? |
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Post by mcirish on Mar 11, 2023 12:47:17 GMT -6
I never think of the Beywrdynamic MC930 as dark. It's just a really smooth mic with a nice lift in the top. Works great on so many things. I did a live televised new years thing during COVID and we put them up on a kit. I was surprised at how good they sounded. Really full without any harshness.
The Octave MK012 is my favorite on guitar and mandolin. It has a little upper mid push, just like a KM84. Very nice on acoustic instruments that need to be featured. I never even tried them on overheads though. I'm always using them for something else.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2023 12:56:45 GMT -6
Mojave 201-Fet is a decent sounding darker mic, however I just mainly go for neutral's that are happy to be EQ'd whatever way you want. There's plenty of those about, TLM 193 / 170 etc.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2023 12:59:13 GMT -6
Don't be afraid to de-ess your overheads. Also a small bit of blended chorus works well when smoothing stuff out, thickens it up a bit too. |
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Post by antipodesjosh on Mar 12, 2023 20:48:21 GMT -6
Vanguard v1s with the wide cardioid capsules could be an option, too:
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Post by Omicron9 on Mar 13, 2023 10:25:16 GMT -6
Good idea, gravesnumber9. I'm doing all acoustic/classical-type (solo and chamber) tracking. Studio; not live concerts. Strings and woodwinds. Accuracy; not color or character for pres. Someone suggested losing the Grace pres, but I love them. They're not going anywhere. I've had various Syteks, Millennias, True, etc. The Grace does exactly what I want for what I'm doing. Thanks to everyone for all the thoughtful suggestions; I really appreciate it. -09 Ahhh, that's helpful. Given all of that, it's a little harder to say whether you would dig the Soyuz or not. Some classical guys love them, some find them too colored. Doug's recommendation of the Senn MKH mics is a good one. As is plinker 's Line Audio suggestion. Also, have you ever tried any Earthworks? I wouldn't describe them as "dark," but I would describe them as "accurate." And regarding the Grace preamp, I think what people mean by "try a different pre" is just that you're clearly not wowed by any SDC's frequency content. Maybe it's time to think about the mic and mic pre as a "unit." You may love the Grace, but by your own admission, you don't love any of the "SDC+Grace" units. There's more than one way to get to a darker, more controlled top end. Microphone is one way. Mic Preamp is another. The Grace is presenting honestly what information arrives at its input. Maybe you need a pre that doesn't present the input information as honestly, but rather darkens the top. Maybe you only use that new preamp with your SDCs, and not on anything else. Just a thought. EDIT: Doug responded at the same time I did and beat me to some of my points! I've tried a half-dozen (or more now that I think about it) well-known/respected pres that aren't in the classical/clean category. I didn't want to list them out and sound like I was dumping on them. They were fine; just not what I wanted, and in fact made other things worse. "Worse" being all relative to my aesthetics; we all have our individual preferences and likes. Again, the Grace wins for me. But I do appreciate all suggestions; this thread has become both helpful and fascinating to me. Regards, -09 |
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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 13, 2023 10:50:05 GMT -6
Ahhh, that's helpful. Given all of that, it's a little harder to say whether you would dig the Soyuz or not. Some classical guys love them, some find them too colored. Doug's recommendation of the Senn MKH mics is a good one. As is plinker 's Line Audio suggestion. Also, have you ever tried any Earthworks? I wouldn't describe them as "dark," but I would describe them as "accurate." And regarding the Grace preamp, I think what people mean by "try a different pre" is just that you're clearly not wowed by any SDC's frequency content. Maybe it's time to think about the mic and mic pre as a "unit." You may love the Grace, but by your own admission, you don't love any of the "SDC+Grace" units. There's more than one way to get to a darker, more controlled top end. Microphone is one way. Mic Preamp is another. The Grace is presenting honestly what information arrives at its input. Maybe you need a pre that doesn't present the input information as honestly, but rather darkens the top. Maybe you only use that new preamp with your SDCs, and not on anything else. Just a thought. EDIT: Doug responded at the same time I did and beat me to some of my points! I've tried a half-dozen (or more now that I think about it) well-known/respected pres that aren't in the classical/clean category. I didn't want to list them out and sound like I was dumping on them. They were fine; just not what I wanted, and in fact made other things worse. "Worse" being all relative to my aesthetics; we all have our individual preferences and likes. Again, the Grace wins for me. But I do appreciate all suggestions; this thread has become both helpful and fascinating to me. Regards, -09 Hey, fair enough! Two other thoughts (can’t remember if anyone mentioned these in the thread or not): The Beyerdynamic M201 can sound excellent on acoustic instruments. I know it’s a dynamic, rather than a SDC, but it’s perhaps the most condenser-like dynamic I’ve come across. Very smooth and natural, and not muddy or cloudy like some dynamics can be. It’s fantastic on mandolin, and your Grace would love it. Another dynamic I think of here is the EV RE 15/16. They’re not made anymore, obviously, so that may knock them out of contention for you, but they’re wonderful and can really surprise you on a number of sources, including acoustic guitars and vocals. There’s no real low end buildup if you work them close because of the variable-d thing. And finally, as I mentioned before, Earthworks are worth a listen IMO, whether the omnis or the cardioids. They don’t have too much of a presence peak, and sound very natural to my ear. I hope you’ll keep reporting back with what you try (and have tried in the past!). |
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Post by Omicron9 on Mar 13, 2023 11:27:24 GMT -6
I've tried a half-dozen (or more now that I think about it) well-known/respected pres that aren't in the classical/clean category. I didn't want to list them out and sound like I was dumping on them. They were fine; just not what I wanted, and in fact made other things worse. "Worse" being all relative to my aesthetics; we all have our individual preferences and likes. Again, the Grace wins for me. But I do appreciate all suggestions; this thread has become both helpful and fascinating to me. Regards, -09 Hey, fair enough! Two other thoughts (can’t remember if anyone mentioned these in the thread or not): The Beyerdynamic M201 can sound excellent on acoustic instruments. I know it’s a dynamic, rather than a SDC, but it’s perhaps the most condenser-like dynamic I’ve come across. Very smooth and natural, and not muddy or cloudy like some dynamics can be. It’s fantastic on mandolin, and your Grace would love it. Another dynamic I think of here is the EV RE 15/16. They’re not made anymore, obviously, so that may knock them out of contention for you, but they’re wonderful and can really surprise you on a number of sources, including acoustic guitars and vocals. There’s no real low end buildup if you work them close because of the variable-d thing. And finally, as I mentioned before, Earthworks are worth a listen IMO, whether the omnis or the cardioids. They don’t have too much of a presence peak, and sound very natural to my ear. I hope you’ll keep reporting back with what you try (and have tried in the past!). Hi, theothermark.... Thank you for the suggestions of dynamics. I wouldn't have thought of those, but I know there are some exceptional dynamics out there, like my old fave the AKG D-224-E. I'd love to find another one of those to make a stereo pair. I've tried a couple of Earthworks years ago (can't recall the models), but the self-noise was way too high. I will investigate the M201; thank you! Kind regards, -09 |
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Post by Omicron9 on Mar 13, 2023 11:30:47 GMT -6
Oh.... meant to add this to my original post.
Another one I really like, tho it's a medium diaphragm, is the Shure KSM-32. It's pretty special IMO.
-09
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,906
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Dark SDCs?
Mar 13, 2023 16:32:03 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by ericn on Mar 13, 2023 16:32:03 GMT -6
Greetings. I've been looking for darker SDCs for instrument mic'ing. My two current faves, tho I wouldn't call them dark, are the AKG C-460-B and the venerable Shure SM-81. The top end on both is close to what I seek; although they're pretty flat, they can still be a bit more crispy than I want. Preamps are all Grace. I've tried many other well-known SDCs (Neumann, AKG, Gefell, Shure KSM series, Oktava, et. al.), and these two are the ones thus far. I'd still like to find something a little darker on top. Please don't say KM-84s, as that's way out of my budget, and I'm not a fan of maintaining vintage gear. I've tried various ribbons (Royer, Mesanovic, Cascasde), and they're just too dark on top and lack definition for what I want to hear. I'm going for clean/accurate, not vintage/muddy/saturated. I want to think there must be some happy medium between ribbons and the 81/460. Or maybe not. Suggestions? TIA, -09 Reading through this whole thread I think you’re at the point of looking for your Goldilocks mic. Congratulations you have entered the deep end of the Audio ocean. The suggestion of the mid sized dia. (U89, Beyer MCE834 etc) probably will serve you best, but this is going to be a long and expensive pursuit ( it’s also how many end up with huge mic lockers “ it was right on xxx and I’m keeping it because if I’m ever in that situation I know it works”). |
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Post by collywobble on Mar 15, 2023 11:22:19 GMT -6
See if you can find some of the old Sony SDCs. The C36 rolls off above 10k (I believe the C35 is the end address version of the same mic). The C55p is quite similar to a KM84 but not as extended in the highs.
The Austrian Audio OCC8 has grown on me, it's neither dark nor bright but very very smooth.
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