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Post by notneeson on Feb 15, 2023 16:01:14 GMT -6
Was lurking up to now (at work). Will try to do a proper review of this Thread soon. FWIW I agree with John K/et al... UA should give more credit literally and figuratively, to loyal pa$t customers. I hope in any event, that Dr. Sax visits us more often, whenever he can. I enjoy his music and posts too.  Chris I’ll be around. I enjoy this group… and thanks for the kind words man. Guess sometimes I get a bit tired of too much off topic and complaining. Times are tough and real life is complicated for so many… so in past years, coming to this forum and actually sharing knowledge about gear and tech has been an escape for me. I enjoy your posts too 👍 Yeah, this is a hot topic because some of our friends here feel burned, and others feel like a company they admire is under fire. Totally understandable. So I also want to reiterate how great the company is around here in general, present company included and with a shout out to John as curator in chief. |
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Post by tkaitkai on Feb 15, 2023 16:04:06 GMT -6
I imagine that I’m one of the types of person at whom this move is targeted: I’m doing this professionally, but I’ve literally never used a UAD plugin, because I’ve never wanted to buy their DSP or interfaces. I’ve certainly considered it many times over the years, but I’ve always found good sounding native plugins to do what I need. Honestly, the growth of Luna is one of the things that’s been most interesting to observe as an outsider these past couple years. Anyway, now that at least some of these plugins are available to me, i find myself curious: How is the LA2A “bundle”? How about the 1176 “bundle”? I have other things that I use for those now, obviously, but I wonder what the UAD offerings are actually like in comparison.
Oddly enough, the 1176 collection is pretty much the only thing I miss since I got out of UAD. They were my go-to compressors for years, and they all
sound great (including the MKIs).
Of course, there's "better" stuff out there, but the UAD 1176s have a sound, and it was a sound I often liked. I don't really miss anything else, tbh. The LA3A and Pultecs were good, but Black Rooster and NoiseAsh fill that need for me. Never really cared for the LA2As. I almost always preferred the IK 670 to the UAD Fairchild.
That said, I've had my eye on the Hitsville verb since it came out. Now that it's perpetual, I might have to give it a try.
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Post by gwlee7 on Feb 15, 2023 16:33:10 GMT -6
I agree...not much more to say about it all. It initially rubbed me the wrong way. Those that weren't rubbed the wrong way won't be convinced by me to be rubbed the wrong way...I'll get over it. This statement sums up my whole life’s experience. |
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Post by tasteliketape on Feb 15, 2023 16:34:24 GMT -6
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Post by sirthought on Feb 15, 2023 16:38:54 GMT -6
Yep you can get them at several outlets like Sweetwater and VK. It's just going to give you a code that you redeem on UA's site. I know I've spent more money than I should. Someone starting off today buying one of those bundles will be getting a great price per plugin. I know if I had just bought the big bundle years ago I would have just gotten it over with at less money in the end. LOL |
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Post by viciousbliss on Feb 15, 2023 16:39:02 GMT -6
DSP is still relevant because of the limitations of single core computing power. Almost every plug I use is oversampled or on DSP, so when I work at 44k, it's just about the same as if I was at 96k. Dopamine may be the only one I really use that doesn't oversample aside from the Cranesong stuff. If I got a new computer with the best processor and doubled my single core power, I'm not sure it would yield an ability to run many times more instances of plugins that sit on a single core. I always knew UAD would convert the stuff to native. The ones they have converted aren't much. So many of their heavy hitters are DSP-only still. If they could do something so we could run a lot more plugins on our satellites, I'd be thrilled. Technology is only going to move faster.
Making music like this has a shelf life. Within 5 years or less this stuff we're using now could seem archaic in comparison. At some point technology will enable people to generate band members to work with and emulate all hardware perfectly. Then create things that take what's great about the best hardware and go beyond that. And there will come a day where an AI will be able to just create content for everyone. Want to hear a hypothetical Metallica album from 1990 that would have existed had they not gone with Bob Rock? Done. How about a Bon Scott AC/DC album that could have existed instead of Back in Black? Also possible one day. Full immersion VR will enable people to inhabit a virtual world where they where they can be a big music superstar in the era of their choice.
Giving us the UAD-X versions for free is awesome. I love that I can now take the lower usage DSP stuff and throw it on native while saving the DSP for more demanding things. If only I could run stuff like Satin, Azure 2, and DRC2 on my Octo. If UAD could make some deals like that and not charge us much for the DSP versions, I'd be inclined so I can put off building a new computer. I'd say just use what you can while you can because the exponential tech curve is going to knock down most barriers to entry in most industries eventually.
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Post by Quint on Feb 15, 2023 16:40:00 GMT -6
Can the person who sold their house to you come back a year later, when it's worth $100,000 more than what you paid for it, and say that they are owed some portion of that $100,000? If UA's prices go UP, can they come back to every old customer and ask for the difference? Fair play would be fair play, if everything is retroactive. At some point sales are final. I know UA has done some partial bundle discounts before, but they chose not to this time. That said, Drew at the UA forum did mention that "something" is coming for DSP folks. He didn't go into details, but it was in the context of this conversation we're having right now, so we might yet be surprised. Like I said, I get the frustration. I'd be frustrated too, and have been in these situations myself before. I've been really frugal, and always waited for sales, but I bet I've still spent close to $3k on UAD plugins over the last 10 years. So it's not like I'm not looking at recent bundle prices and wishing I had been able to save that money. But then I wouldn't have been able to use those plugins over the last 10 years either, as I talked about in one of my previous posts. Anyway, I've learned to just view UA as bringing a lot more good to the table than bad. As an example, this new Luna release is seriously awesome. Game changer for me, really. Once hardware inserts come, and maybe a few other more minor things, I'm gonna feel like Luna offers everything I want. its got nothing to do with old prices? This happened only a few weeks ago, why are you okey with ua offering its least invested client , its best price for Ultimate 11 at $1200 and at the same time expected the most invested client to also pay $1200 for fewer plug ins? Companies should reward their best customers, not punish them. It has everything to do with old prices because you're comparing old prices you paid to new prices that others are paying now. If you think it's reasonable to expect that you're owed something that wasn't part of the deal when you made the original purchase, then it should be equally reasonable for UA to go back to customers and ask for more money if/when the sale price goes up at a later date. It sounds silly when couched in those terms, and that's because it is silly, but I'm just trying to make a point. I mean, if the total price you paid, for all of the UA plugins you own, had recently gone UP, I bet you wouldn't be contacting UA to offer to pay them the difference now, would you? The main difference here, I guess, is that I don't see any of this as punishment or as being fundamentally unfair. Just because UA has been generous with prorated bundle purchases in the past, that doesn't mean that they're required to continue to do so into perpetuity (i.e., give you the rest of the plugins for free or prorated or offer you some kind of voucher), especially if market dynamics are changing, or things are moving in a native direction, or prices are naturally trending down and profit margins are getting smaller, which they all are. It's just the way things are and I accept that. |
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Post by teejay on Feb 15, 2023 16:57:33 GMT -6
I’ll be around. I enjoy this group… and thanks for the kind words man. Guess sometimes I get a bit tired of too much off topic and complaining. Times are tough and real life is complicated for so many… so in past years, coming to this forum and actually sharing knowledge about gear and tech has been an escape for me. I enjoy your posts too 👍 Yeah, this is a hot topic because some of our friends here feel burned, and others feel like a company they admire is under fire. Totally understandable. So I also want to reiterate how great the company is around here in general, present company included and with a shout out to John as curator in chief. "As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another." Different people, different backgrounds, different opinions, different approaches, mutual love and passion for music and gear. There will always be some disagreements, sometimes with very strong opinions. However, the vast majority of members here can thankfully discuss in a manner of civility, listening to and respecting each other's position, seeing both sides, and agreeing to disagree if need-be. I, for one, am better for it, and it's how I've learned from some of the best in the industry here...ultimately helping me grow as a musician and recordist. (I can't say it's helped me save money nor curbed my desire for trying more gear, though!  ) Beyond that I've met some really great guys here who have enriched my life, and who I never would have met otherwise. And yes, all made possible by our Admin who continues to provide this small haven in cyberspace. |
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Post by drumsound on Feb 15, 2023 17:26:12 GMT -6
drumsound ah, forgive me, let’s use your situation as a test case: ah, you bought your plugs and satellite second hand: right? So, now that you don’t need the dsp and can buy bundles of native plugs at about 25% of retail, would you be prepared to pay the same price for your used gear or would you just buy native plugs, if they were cheaper ? We’d all buy the cheaper plugs, unless the card and second hand plugs were heavily discounted or unless, some key plugs you wanted were included? Other than a few plugs with licensing issues preventing UA from selling natively(neve), it would seem all UA plugs will go native. a new octo is still $1200 plus tax, for a few hundred more you can buy a screaming m2 pro with way more processing speed and capacity, why buy a new octo now? When I made the deal I made, I was happy with it. There's a lot of "I paid X for something but times and technology change and THEY only have to pay Y" on just about everything. I look at it as a waste of my time to worry about those type of things. I've got things to do, both in and out of the studio, so I'm just don't give a shit if the deal I made months or years ago has been 'made worse' by changes in both technology and business modes. I was a late adopter to Pro Tools. I was able to get native software and 32 I/O for about 25% of what a similar system would have cost an early adopter. I thank those early adopters because they they not only used the primitive versions, they reported bugs, suggested features, helped pave the way for 3rd party plugin developers and any number of other things that allowed the software to develop. Plus in that time computers got better, and kept getting better. The DAW a large scoring room in LA put together in 2005 was probably ridiculously expensive, couldn't do a 1/4 of what the M1 MAC I bought last year can do, and they paid quite a bit to have the I/O and the power for what looks like a basic session today. That's just how it goes. I pay what I pay for shit if I think it works in my budget for what I need or want it to do. Then I get it and I use it. If someone else pays less for it, good for them. In the mean time I got records to make. |
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Post by gwlee7 on Feb 15, 2023 17:29:41 GMT -6
Yeah, this is a hot topic because some of our friends here feel burned, and others feel like a company they admire is under fire. Totally understandable. So I also want to reiterate how great the company is around here in general, present company included and with a shout out to John as curator in chief. "As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another." Different people, different backgrounds, different opinions, different approaches, mutual love and passion for music and gear. There will always be some disagreements, sometimes with very strong opinions. However, the vast majority of members here can thankfully discuss in a manner of civility, listening to and respecting each other's position, seeing both sides, and agreeing to disagree if need-be. I, for one, am better for it, and it's how I've learned from some of the best in the industry here...ultimately helping me grow as a musician and recordist. (I can't say it's helped me save money nor curbed my desire for trying more gear, though! ) Beyond that I've met some really great guys here that have enriched my life, and who I never would have met otherwise. And yes, all made possible by our Admin who continues to provide this small haven in cyberspace. The problem with clicking the like button multiple times is I have make sure I left it on “like”. You have summed my thoughts about RGO in general perfectly. |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 15, 2023 19:09:05 GMT -6
Most of RGO's earliest members came over from the original mammoth size Apollo thread at the site that should not be named. That thread had over a million views, and that was ages ago. From the beginning, RGO was a welcome relief from the nonsense that pervaded discussions elsewhere. I've made a few real friends here, plus valued online friends and have been helped by them in so many ways, I'm truly grateful. In a way, Real Gear proves that the promise of a true internet community could actually be a real thing.
So, those of us who have had their Apollos for 10 years have experienced every policy decision UAD has made, and over that time, were frustrated by some obviously boneheaded positions. Those decisions are not necessarily money making ones, just theories that didn't workout so well, but UAD didn't respond to customer outreach often, if ever.
That's part of why UAD's moves bug us sometimes, even though they have some good reasons, but mainly it feels like a money grab on their part sometime. Apple charges $29.95 for a cable that should cost $4.99 at most, because they can. So maximizing profit isn't unprecedented, it's just that sometimes the true supporting customers feel taken for granted. Once you're fully invested in an Apollo system, it's not so easy to change. When every plug-in they make is available native, I suspect some long term customers will move on.
That is unless they pull off a miracle at the next trade show. Personally, I've been very satisfied with the Apollo system overall. If only they wouldn't keep milking every last cent they can out of loyal customers. It is their prerogative though.. free market, etc.
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Post by ragan on Feb 15, 2023 20:07:28 GMT -6
I’m of kind of a weird two minds about UA. I think being locked to underpowered DSP is pretty lame, and I liked the sonics of the Symphony better, so I was glad to get out. But I also really liked working on Apollos. The real-time DSP was pretty fun. In an odd way, the fact that UAD plugs will be native makes it more likely I’d consider moving back to an Apollo rig. Knowing that I wouldn’t be completely locked into DSP dongle (a non-starter for me mostly) and could use the plugs natively makes me consider UA land (and maybe even Apollo land) as a more viable option.
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Post by the other mark williams on Feb 15, 2023 21:35:27 GMT -6
I’m of kind of a weird two minds about UA. I think being locked to underpowered DSP is pretty lame, and I liked the sonics of the Symphony better, so I was glad to get out. But I also really liked working on Apollos. The real-time DSP was pretty fun. In an odd way, the fact that UAD plugs will be native makes it more likely I’d consider moving back to an Apollo rig. Knowing that I wouldn’t be completely locked into DSP dongle (a non-starter for me mostly) and could use the plugs natively makes me consider UA land (and maybe even Apollo land) as a more viable option. Bingo. Couldn't agree more. |
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Post by copperx on Feb 16, 2023 2:21:38 GMT -6
Within 5 years or less this stuff we're using now could seem archaic in comparison. At some point technology will enable people to generate band members to work with and emulate all hardware perfectly. Then create things that take what's great about the best hardware and go beyond that. And there will come a day where an AI will be able to just create content for everyone. Want to hear a hypothetical Metallica album from 1990 that would have existed had they not gone with Bob Rock? Done. How about a Bon Scott AC/DC album that could have existed instead of Back in Black? Also possible one day. I'd like to bury my head in the sand and pretend this isn't going to happen, but it is inevitable. AI has made great strides in a few years and today Google Research can create music from a text prompt (in case you've been living under a rock, here's the relevant paper: google-research.github.io/seanet/musiclm/examples/ ). Music will be a commodity. There will still exist the same 0.01% human performers that make it big, but by and large, mediocrity will be automated. The top performers will be better than AI, but mediocre musicians will be unable to compete against AI. Right now ChatGPT can create better lyrics than many people I know. I'm still going to try to enjoy these few years that remain, but I'm sure in 10 years the world will be unrecognizable. Music and other low hanging fruit endeavors will be largely automated. I really hope I'm wrong, but all the evidence points to the contrary. |
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Post by thehightenor on Feb 16, 2023 4:12:02 GMT -6
Within 5 years or less this stuff we're using now could seem archaic in comparison. At some point technology will enable people to generate band members to work with and emulate all hardware perfectly. Then create things that take what's great about the best hardware and go beyond that. And there will come a day where an AI will be able to just create content for everyone. Want to hear a hypothetical Metallica album from 1990 that would have existed had they not gone with Bob Rock? Done. How about a Bon Scott AC/DC album that could have existed instead of Back in Black? Also possible one day. .... but I'm sure in 10 years the world will be unrecognizable. 10 years. copperx my friend, the world is unrecognisable to me now! |
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 16, 2023 5:45:37 GMT -6
its got nothing to do with old prices? This happened only a few weeks ago, why are you okey with ua offering its least invested client , its best price for Ultimate 11 at $1200 and at the same time expected the most invested client to also pay $1200 for fewer plug ins? Companies should reward their best customers, not punish them. It has everything to do with old prices because you're comparing old prices you paid to new prices that others are paying now. If you think it's reasonable to expect that you're owed something that wasn't part of the deal when you made the original purchase, then it should be equally reasonable for UA to go back to customers and ask for more money if/when the sale price goes up at a later date. It sounds silly when couched in those terms, and that's because it is silly, but I'm just trying to make a point. I mean, if the total price you paid, for all of the UA plugins you own, had recently gone UP, I bet you wouldn't be contacting UA to offer to pay them the difference now, would you? The main difference here, I guess, is that I don't see any of this as punishment or as being fundamentally unfair. Just because UA has been generous with prorated bundle purchases in the past, that doesn't mean that they're required to continue to do so into perpetuity (i.e., give you the rest of the plugins for free or prorated or offer you some kind of voucher), especially if market dynamics are changing, or things are moving in a native direction, or prices are naturally trending down and profit margins are getting smaller, which they all are. It's just the way things are and I accept that. All good, but, we disagree, its the way UA decided it would be, as it could have easily remedied it’s inequity and chose instead to financially favour the new client and overcharge the established client. Ok with you, not with me |
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Post by thehightenor on Feb 16, 2023 7:44:12 GMT -6
Without sounding lazy and to save me reading this very long thread.
What has UA done wrong that’s ruffled some peoples feathers?
Is it because they are favouring new customers and not rewarding their loyal customers (like me) who made them so successful!
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Feb 16, 2023 9:31:59 GMT -6
I’m of kind of a weird two minds about UA. I think being locked to underpowered DSP is pretty lame, and I liked the sonics of the Symphony better, so I was glad to get out. But I also really liked working on Apollos. The real-time DSP was pretty fun. In an odd way, the fact that UAD plugs will be native makes it more likely I’d consider moving back to an Apollo rig. Knowing that I wouldn’t be completely locked into DSP dongle (a non-starter for me mostly) and could use the plugs natively makes me consider UA land (and maybe even Apollo land) as a more viable option. Same here. Already had the thought of "maybe I shouldn't have sold my x8". |
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 16, 2023 9:41:05 GMT -6
Without sounding lazy and to save me reading this very long thread. What has UA done wrong that’s ruffled some peoples feathers? Is it because they are favouring new customers and not rewarding their loyal customers (like me) who made them so successful! Offering bundles for $699 that cost some of us $3000 plus without offering any recompense to those people. It is what it is. |
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Post by Quint on Feb 16, 2023 9:43:45 GMT -6
I have, at times in the past, considered moving away from UA, but I always ended up sticking around. When Luna came out, I was automatically intrigued, and even made the move to Mac, just to be able to use it.
With these recent moves by UA, I'm definitely glad I stuck it out. Luna is looking to be a pretty great system, especially once they get a few other things implemented, like hardware inserts.
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Post by thehightenor on Feb 16, 2023 11:42:38 GMT -6
Without sounding lazy and to save me reading this very long thread. What has UA done wrong that’s ruffled some peoples feathers? Is it because they are favouring new customers and not rewarding their loyal customers (like me) who made them so successful! Offering bundles for $699 that cost some of us $3000 plus without offering any recompense to those people. It is what it is. That includes me too! As I said, it happened to me with Emagic when Apple bought them out and offered all my $3000 of software for $149. Boy, that grated for a while, I was so p*ssed, I swopped to Cubase on PC (been there ever since) UA did it to me with dropping support for the UAD-1 cards, I was an early adopter, I had two of them that cost me $1200 and overnight they became essentially land fill. As you say - it is what it is. |
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 16, 2023 11:55:06 GMT -6
Ua offered people cash to transition to uad2.
Respectfully, literal end of life tech transition was a little different?
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 16, 2023 12:06:24 GMT -6
We’ve probably squeezed enough juice out of this topic. It’s just devolving into differing opinions and I don’t think anyone is going to change anyone’s mind. Feel free to start another topic on the updates.
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) Beyond that I've met some really great guys here who have enriched my life, and who I never would have met otherwise. And yes, all made possible by our Admin who continues to provide this small haven in cyberspace.
