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Post by ab101 on Feb 14, 2023 15:28:45 GMT -6
The recent UA layoffs, including David Bock, as well as this leads me to think that UA is desperately trying to raise some quick cash. They should have a special super low deal for customers that have been with them for years and already spent a couple thousand dollars on various UA plugs, let alone hardware items.
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Post by Quint on Feb 14, 2023 15:37:10 GMT -6
For me its simple, ua drew the ultimate 11, 114 plug ins line in the sand at $1200, great for the newbies Ua also knows, what in total everybody has paid buying plugs from it Ua has already made its money from us and knows that it can make enough deeply discounting too. So, if one new client gets 114 plugs for $1200, don’t expect heavily invested clients to drop another $1200 for a subset of the 114. If they have already paid more than $1200, way more, just be reciprocal and deposit the remaining licenses for U11 in their accounts. That would be treating everyone the same, as opposed to a two tiered pricing system that so blatantly favoured the least invested client. Ymmv . Just to provide a little counter balance, would you agree that the use you've gotten out of those plugins that you own, for the period of time in which you've owned them, has provided some level of value to you, financially or otherwise? If so, then it might be useful to do a little thought experiment on what that value might be in dollars, and then consider that you've gotten that amount of value from those plugins, over and above whatever it is that you would be paying to buy those plugins today, if you were starting from scratch today. I don't know what plugins you do or don't own, but let's just say, for discussions sake, that someone owned all of the plugins currently in the Diamond bundle, and that they have owned those plugins for five years. Spark contains those exact same plugins and costs $20/month. Over five years, if you were renting those plugins in Spark, that would come out to a total of $1200. If you own more plugins than that, or have owned them for longer, then obviously that total would need to go up by some amount, but I'm just providing this as a point of comparison so that it's a relatively apples to apples comparison. So let's say you've gotten $1200 of value from those plugins over the last five years. Now, let's say you individually paid roughly $50, on average, per plugin (when they were on sale or whatever) for those same plugins that are in the Diamond bundle, and there's, what, 25 plugins in that bundle?, then that comes out to a total of $1250. Again, I don't know what you paid, but let's just round that total up to an even $2000, in case you weren't as frugal on those purchases as I thought you were. If you consider that you effectively got five years worth of Spark by using the plugins you own over the last five years, then you could tack on the previously mentioned $1200 to the current $699 cost for the Diamond bundle, because you'd be paying $699 to use those plugins going forward, plus another $1200 for their use over the previous five years (remember, the newbie buying the $699 bundle today didn't get use of those plugins for the last five years like you did). That comes out to a total of roughly $1900, which is nearly the same amount as the aforementioned $2000 that was spent to individually buy those plugins outright. I know these numbers are not exactly what you spent, but I'm just pointing out that the value you got from those purchased UAD-2 plugins ain't worth nothing. It's not like they were purchased and then sat on a shelf. So, yeah, the newbie is only paying $699 today, but, once you consider that you got to use those same plugins for five years longer than the newbie, the net total costs start to even out a whole lot more. I can't buy a new car, drive it for five years, even if lit still looked brand new to this day, and go back to the dealer when I hear that they're selling the same car at blowout prices, and expect that they'll just give me back the difference in cash. I specifically used the car example because I think vehicles are a consumable much in the same way that plugins and software are consumable. Things advance. New models come out. Economies and markets change. You paid what you paid and everyone moves on. If you bought all of those plugins last week, I'd be more understanding of where you're coming from but if, as you've stated, you've gotten use out of these plugins for however long you've had them, I think you gotta just grin and bear it. Yeah, it still kind of sucks to think about how much you could have saved if you were buying these plugins now, but then it also would have sucked to not have use of those plugins for the years leading up to now. |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 14, 2023 15:44:36 GMT -6
I bought my Apollo the first week they were introduced. It truly was an all-in-one product and got me back into music production at home at a relatively affordable price. It did what they said it would do, flawlessly.
I stopped buying UAD plugs around 3-4 years ago, with a minor exception or two when a sale was on. During that time I upgraded to the black and then the X versions. The Apollo never failed me. It was 100% reliable, worked perfectly, was easy to install new plugs, and they sounded as good as any other brand plugs, or better. So, it was worth the investment. I always hated their policy of not being able to sell or trade plug-ins. I have many I never use. Still, no one forced me to buy them, I was seduced by overzealous online recommendations.
Since I do use their A/D-D/A it has worked for me. I rarely use their preamps, but they could come in handy one day. I have the Black Lion Audio mod, and have been very pleased since I got it. If I was starting over, I wouldn't buy an Apollo, I'd buy a higher end interface and get some of their plugs native. I'd guess the next generation will have a different memory system, not yet another incremental update. If I didn't have the BLA mod, I'd be tempted to let my Apollo go now.
UAD has made some stubborn and pointless decisions along the way, but you have to credit them for reliability and quality. Like kcat said, it's things like not pro-rating a bundle purchase or not offering substitutes that drive people nuts.
This is just the way it goes in a digital world. Today we get 10X the computational power for less than half of what it cost 7 years ago. But it's howling at the moon to be pissed about how much your old computer cost. Now UAD plugs are native and cheap, annoying, but not shocking.I hope I can afford to keep my Apollo when I eventually upgrade to an entirely new higher end system.
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Post by notneeson on Feb 14, 2023 16:32:35 GMT -6
Man, based on Spark I’m not sure these plugins are as good as Fuse or Pulsar. And I’m even less sure that my IK versions aren’t as good as UAD, albeit a little different. I mean, they’re good and all, but where’s the hype when you can finally justify it?
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 14, 2023 16:36:54 GMT -6
Quint after less than two years: no, and its a bit facetious to make a use argument when ua’s actions reverse its long standing business model, value proposition and undermine the cash value of these assets. Everyone has a right to their opinion, my opinion about UA has been quite negatively affected by this: time will tell.
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Post by jampa on Feb 14, 2023 16:48:40 GMT -6
Yea that must hurt
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Feb 14, 2023 17:51:34 GMT -6
Man, based on Spark I’m not sure these plugins are as good as Fuse or Pulsar. And I’m even less sure that my IK versions aren’t as good as UAD, albeit a little different. I mean, they’re good and all, but where’s the hype when you can finally justify it? FWIW the Spark versions do null with the DSP versions per seawell YouTube. |
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Post by notneeson on Feb 14, 2023 18:29:28 GMT -6
Man, based on Spark I’m not sure these plugins are as good as Fuse or Pulsar. And I’m even less sure that my IK versions aren’t as good as UAD, albeit a little different. I mean, they’re good and all, but where’s the hype when you can finally justify it? FWIW the Spark versions do null with the DSP versions per seawell YouTube. Yep, I know. I am just saying by contemporary standards I don't think UAD has the best sounding plugins. Good enough, sure. Tempting to buy? Meh, not hugely. Probably haven't for a while now. Maybe that's why people liked to crap on their perfectly OK convertors? When in doubt, blame conversion. I like Spark OK, I'm just not remotely blown away and it has taken the shine off the UAD reputation for me. And now this. |
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Post by Quint on Feb 14, 2023 18:29:45 GMT -6
Quint after less than two years: no, and its a bit facetious to make a use argument when ua’s actions reverse its long standing business model, value proposition and undermine the cash value of these assets. Everyone has a right to their opinion, my opinion about UA has been quite negatively affected by this: time will tell. You absolutely have a right to your opinion. I wasn't trying to say otherwise. I was simply pointing out that, like it or not, this is the general nature of software (not just UA), and many other goods we buy too. It is what it is. But at least you might consider that you did get some value out of using those plugins for the time that you had them up to now, minimal as you may feel it may be. UA has for sure pissed me off or frustrated me in past too, so I get it. But, bottom line, I'm just saying that, if you look at software as an "investment" or as something that's going to retain some kind of recoupable resale value, you're bound to be disappointed. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Feb 14, 2023 18:35:04 GMT -6
The recent UA layoffs, including David Bock, as well as this leads me to think that UA is desperately trying to raise some quick cash. They should have a special super low deal for customers that have been with them for years and already spent a couple thousand dollars on various UA plugs, let alone hardware items. Or is the company for sale? Look at our market growth! |
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Post by bossanova on Feb 14, 2023 19:06:47 GMT -6
FWIW the Spark versions do null with the DSP versions per seawell YouTube. Yep, I know. I am just saying by contemporary standards I don't think UAD has the best sounding plugins. Good enough, sure. Tempting to buy? Meh, not hugely. Probably haven't for a while now. Maybe that's why people liked to crap on their perfectly OK convertors? When in doubt, blame conversion. I like Spark OK, I'm just not remotely blown away and it has taken the shine off the UAD reputation for me. And now this. I was initially really taken with the reverbs, and then went head to head with with my non-UAD favorites and found that I liked my native favorites as much or better. I did like the compressors quite a bit though. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 14, 2023 19:36:11 GMT -6
Quint after less than two years: no, and its a bit facetious to make a use argument when ua’s actions reverse its long standing business model, value proposition and undermine the cash value of these assets. Everyone has a right to their opinion, my opinion about UA has been quite negatively affected by this: time will tell. You absolutely have a right to your opinion. I wasn't trying to say otherwise. I was simply pointing out that, like it or not, this is the general nature of software (not just UA), and many other goods we buy too. It is what it is. But at least you might consider that you did get some value out of using those plugins for the time that you had them up to now, minimal as you may feel it may be. UA has for sure pissed me off or frustrated me in past too, so I get it. But, bottom line, I'm just saying that, if you look at software as an "investment" or as something that's going to retain some kind of recoupable resale value, you're bound to be disappointed. Not certain we are having the same conversation ? By investment, i don’t think the value of plugs/ cards will increase. The established ua business model/proposition was high cost, very good sound, but closed environment requiring sharc dsp. As UA manipulates the used market by not allowing us to sell what ever we want, it distorts, compromises free market used pricing and buyers know you have no option, so you are lucky to get 30% of plug cost. Releasing native uadx plugs undermines the trad ua business model further in favour of the least invested client, offering them bundled at further discounts, just further undermines the sale of second hand ua plugs by putting further downward pressure on used prices to compete with the discounted uadx pricing and Ultimate 11 pricing. UA expected established clients to pony up and we did. Bottom line: seems to me it will be harder to sell cards and plugs. now. |
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Post by indiehouse on Feb 14, 2023 20:52:21 GMT -6
So third party resellers are able to sell UAD plugs now? Or was that a thing already? Saw that Plug-in Boutique and Sweetwater has them.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Feb 14, 2023 21:08:47 GMT -6
So third party resellers are able to sell UAD plugs now? Or was that a thing already? Saw that Plug-in Boutique and Sweetwater has them. Only in bundles for the last couple of years. |
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Post by jeremygillespie on Feb 14, 2023 21:15:48 GMT -6
I’m seeing this in such a different light I guess?
The money I’ve made from using the UAD plugins that
I really like and use on every mix / project have more than paid for themselves over and over again. So for me - I’ve gotten my value out
Of what I paid for. Quite a bit of value actually.
Now, add in the fact that I can just buy some bundles, run plugs off my computer processor and not have to worry about running out of dsp or purchasing a satellite? Oh wait and I can still use the dsp stuff I already have in case my computer hiccups? Killer! Keep my workflow and remove a hassle, score a write off all in the same process? Sign me up.
My mindset may also be slightly different as I NEVER look at a piece of software or computer hardware as something that I’ll ever see a return on in the form of a second hand sale. Guitars, drum kits, cymbals, any other instrument, compressors, eq’s? Hell yeah that’s written in as part of the investment. But not software. That money is gone as far as I’m concerned - research and demo before you buy. Sometimes it’s a gem and sometimes you get burnt.
I got a pint of haagen das last week for 7 bucks. Enjoyed the hell out of it. That stuff is 2 for $8 this week. Am I pissed?
I’ll let you know in a half hour when I finish all this ice cream.
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Post by wiz on Feb 14, 2023 23:22:59 GMT -6
I’m seeing this in such a different light I guess? The money I’ve made from using the UAD plugins that I really like and use on every mix / project have more than paid for themselves over and over again. So for me - I’ve gotten my value out Of what I paid for. Quite a bit of value actually. Now, add in the fact that I can just buy some bundles, run plugs off my computer processor and not have to worry about running out of dsp or purchasing a satellite? Oh wait and I can still use the dsp stuff I already have in case my computer hiccups? Killer! Keep my workflow and remove a hassle, score a write off all in the same process? Sign me up. My mindset may also be slightly different as I NEVER look at a piece of software or computer hardware as something that I’ll ever see a return on in the form of a second hand sale. Guitars, drum kits, cymbals, any other instrument, compressors, eq’s? Hell yeah that’s written in as part of the investment. But not software. That money is gone as far as I’m concerned - research and demo before you buy. Sometimes it’s a gem and sometimes you get burnt. I got a pint of haagen das last week for 7 bucks. Enjoyed the hell out of it. That stuff is 2 for $8 this week. Am I pissed? I’ll let you know in a half hour when I finish all this ice cream. I was kinda thinking along the same lines... doesn't really worry me...I gots what I gots...I do hope that my satellite and Apollo continues to be supported by MacOs and LUNA.. that's all that really matters to me.... cheers Wiz |
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Post by drsax on Feb 14, 2023 23:32:50 GMT -6
Some added perspective… I have almost all the UAD plugins. 194 plugins to be exact. I have been using them since the very beginning of the UAD ecosystem. I usually buy when on sale and have rarely paid full price. They have been rock solid, have not crashed my systems, and are still my favorite sounding plugins. I have never been charged an a upgrade fee. I have never been “WUPp’ed” like with my Waves plugins which I no longer use. I haven’t been charged for new versions like Avid has charged me. Waves has lost me as a customer because of their update policies, and I “own” (not subscription) licenses to a lot of their plugins. Didn’t even install them on my latest computer because it seems so unethical to me. On top of all that, the Apollo almost “no latency” system has been invaluable to me. So for me personally, I’m actually really happy that I get both the no latency UAD version and now the native version for no extra charge. Native users will not benefit from the no latency tracking. Although it may be slightly discouraging to see the price difference, I have uses for both versions. At the end of the day, I’ve used UA plugins on every song I’ve ever produced or mixed for the last 20 plus years. I have a LOT invested into them and I don’t feel like they owe me anything.
Now… one caveat… if Native users who buy, are able to get the no latency UAD versions for no additional charge… well, that’s a bit of a bummer for someone whose paid for 194 plugins like I have. But still… I use them every day I’m in the studio and they always get me great results. Again, I feel like they owe me nothing. They’ve paid themselves off over and over. Then again, these days there are so many world class plugins from different companies so there are plenty of other choices.
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Post by christopher on Feb 15, 2023 0:35:12 GMT -6
A buddy who has never recorded ever, just texted me a week ago he bought a massive UAD package and will start using LUNA. I mean I’m happy for him, and I think LUNA seems ideal. He doesn’t know how to arm a track yet.
I feel ya
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 15, 2023 1:12:31 GMT -6
Exactly, the newbies post at UA forum basically gloating about their low cost from purchasing Ultimate 11 for $1200 and used gear.
I am not saying ua gear doesn’t get the job done: just saying it bothers me that UA has largely undermined/reversed its business proposition.
A quote from a post above demonstrates how UA new model will undermine used sales, new model cheap native bundles: don’t need dsp
“add in the fact that I can just buy some bundles, run plugs off my computer processor and not have to worry about running out of dsp or purchasing a satellite”
I am just recording myself so ua gear was an investment in sound quality snd a large cost. I have sold my apollos , had 3, didn’t want to use luna and get sessions tethered to an apollo and now have 1 octo and some good plugs, but hardly use them, so its a sunk cost waste of money, that will now just be worth less on the used market.
So, i have lost/spent more money on UA than a new client now spends to have more plug ins, there’s the shift in value proposition.
Anyway, we all develop our own workflow and gear preferences.
I may just look on ua as a sunk cost now and will be unlikely to buy more plugs , actually at all, as what more do I really need, not much.
I’d rather have a few choice pieces of OB, but with being retired harder to afford.
May get some good news friday: re: my big tax bill, which would be some financial help.
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Post by thehightenor on Feb 15, 2023 2:33:49 GMT -6
I’ve always rolled with UA’s punches.
I’ve bought their DSP dongles (which have helped with CPU saving in the early days) I bought some full price plug-ins I should of waited for in a sale ….
But for me, I’ve been so chuffed with the quality and range on offer especially the reverbs and delays that I’ve turned a blind eye to getting fleeced (at times)
And just recently their new Motown chamber and EQ …. it’s another huge WOW from me - at least those came in a sale.
And to be honest I was surprised they are giving me a free Spark version of every DSP plugin I bought and not making me pay again!
I remain a huge fan of their plugin offerings.
I’ll probably pick up another Octo as well because once you have a nice little UAD DSP farm on the go - it really does free up your CPU for running intensive VI’s and intensive native plug-ins.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2023 3:20:15 GMT -6
I’m seeing this in such a different light I guess? The money I’ve made from using the UAD plugins that I really like and use on every mix / project have more than paid for themselves over and over again. So for me - I’ve gotten my value out Of what I paid for. Quite a bit of value actually. Now, add in the fact that I can just buy some bundles, run plugs off my computer processor and not have to worry about running out of dsp or purchasing a satellite? Oh wait and I can still use the dsp stuff I already have in case my computer hiccups? Killer! Keep my workflow and remove a hassle, score a write off all in the same process? Sign me up. My mindset may also be slightly different as I NEVER look at a piece of software or computer hardware as something that I’ll ever see a return on in the form of a second hand sale. Guitars, drum kits, cymbals, any other instrument, compressors, eq’s? Hell yeah that’s written in as part of the investment. But not software. That money is gone as far as I’m concerned - research and demo before you buy. Sometimes it’s a gem and sometimes you get burnt. I got a pint of haagen das last week for 7 bucks. Enjoyed the hell out of it. That stuff is 2 for $8 this week. Am I pissed? I’ll let you know in a half hour when I finish all this ice cream. You can resell software licenses not Waves plugins or Sonnox Oxford Inflator on KVR pretty easily. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2023 3:31:25 GMT -6
Man, based on Spark I’m not sure these plugins are as good as Fuse or Pulsar. And I’m even less sure that my IK versions aren’t as good as UAD, albeit a little different. I mean, they’re good and all, but where’s the hype when you can finally justify it? The Fuse stuff is even cooler because it's weird stuff that you can get a lot of different sounds from just thoughtlessly over driving them on different settings. They don't break up hard for a bit. I also love the Goodhertz stuff. Tupe is amazing while Faraday and Vulf hit hard. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 15, 2023 3:39:22 GMT -6
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 15, 2023 3:41:13 GMT -6
I’m seeing this in such a different light I guess? The money I’ve made from using the UAD plugins that I really like and use on every mix / project have more than paid for themselves over and over again. So for me - I’ve gotten my value out Of what I paid for. Quite a bit of value actually. Now, add in the fact that I can just buy some bundles, run plugs off my computer processor and not have to worry about running out of dsp or purchasing a satellite? Oh wait and I can still use the dsp stuff I already have in case my computer hiccups? Killer! Keep my workflow and remove a hassle, score a write off all in the same process? Sign me up. My mindset may also be slightly different as I NEVER look at a piece of software or computer hardware as something that I’ll ever see a return on in the form of a second hand sale. Guitars, drum kits, cymbals, any other instrument, compressors, eq’s? Hell yeah that’s written in as part of the investment. But not software. That money is gone as far as I’m concerned - research and demo before you buy. Sometimes it’s a gem and sometimes you get burnt. I got a pint of haagen das last week for 7 bucks. Enjoyed the hell out of it. That stuff is 2 for $8 this week. Am I pissed? I’ll let you know in a half hour when I finish all this ice cream. You can resell software licenses not Waves plugins or Sonnox Oxford Inflator on KVR pretty easily. But UA forces you to sell all or none, not individual licenses. |
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Post by gwlee7 on Feb 15, 2023 6:27:11 GMT -6
You can resell software licenses not Waves plugins or Sonnox Oxford Inflator on KVR pretty easily. But UA forces you to sell all or none, not individual licenses. Yep. You are either completely in or completely out. |
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