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Post by thehightenor on Aug 18, 2022 13:01:43 GMT -6
Klaus Heyne has implied numerous times that clones of the U47 never truly capture the correct sound of an original U47 as they do not have the correct tube and nothing
can compensate for this fact - so critical and important is the VF-14 to the sound of the U47. I always thought this seemed a reasonable conclusion.
My Wunder CM7 was good, very good perhaps, but no cigar.
Now apparently, and fortunately for Neumann that's not a critical issue with this newly reissued Neumann 49v
Reading from the above link.
The Tube
One of the most sensitive aspects of a manufacturer's claim that an expensive tube mic was faithfully reissued is the choice of tube. No internet discussion of this rumoured mic launch was more heated and opinionated: how can an M49 be called an M49 without an AC701?
In my mind, it can, but only if two criteria are met:
1. It has to sound identical.
2. 2. A replacement has to comply with the same noise specs and reach similar longevity
I'm hoping, when Neumann eventually reissue the U47 and use an alternative tube to the VF-14, it also meets with Mr Heyne's stamp of approval.
For I shall buy one of whatever valve archives this previously impossible achievement and fit one post haste in my Wunder CM7 and
revel in the knowledge my clone is now in all but name a real U47.
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Post by reddirt on Aug 18, 2022 13:31:20 GMT -6
thehightenor does your CM7 have a Neumann Capsule?
Cheers, Ross
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Post by drbill on Aug 18, 2022 13:42:47 GMT -6
RE: categorizing the AC701 as neutral or not having that much impact on the sound of the vintage Neumann's..... My experience is pretty much the opposite. I have tried / used / owned a lot of vintage Neumann's in the studio's (I have not owned a U47 though), and my impression is that the AC701 absolutely brings an intangible to the party that cannot be understated. This mystery push to make the unidentified tube the sonic equal of an AC701 definitely leaves me suspicious. -- Kla** or no Kla**. I respect the man immensely, but too much of this smells like marketing to me. I would be SOOOOO happy to be proved wrong, but I honestly don't think so. If this new tube is the equivalent to an AC701, why have so many of the classic Neumann DOA mics not been retrofitted with this *new* tube in the past? If it's a complete match with no change of transformer or other circuitry, Neumann should be proud of their find and should be retrofitting vintage 50's, 49's, 269's, 53's, 54's, etc. with these new (old) equivalent tubes. If that question can be answered to a satisfaction, my doubts may be assuaged - a bit. Until then, I remain wishfully optimistic, but experientially cautious. thehightenor - re: the eventual re-release to the U47 and a VF14 "replacement".... unless I'm mistaken, Kla** has already mentioned that there IS no "acceptable" replacement for the VF14 available. So that would preclude Neumann from a 47 re-release that was a legit "clone" of the original. |
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Post by thehightenor on Aug 18, 2022 14:19:04 GMT -6
thehightenor does your CM7 have a Neumann Capsule? Cheers, Ross I was informed the M7 in my 15 year old Wunder CM7 was built by an old capsule maker who had previously and for many years made M7 capsules in Germany and was at the time making capsules for Wunder. I therefore conclude, my capsule is of a enviable pedigree. Now there's so much BS and urban myth surrounding clones that frankly I don't know if the information I was given by the dealer who told me he got this information from Mike at Wunder is true. But I like to think it's true and I choose to swim in the warm bath of this potential truth/ illusion. It certainly sounds fabulous and the capsule looks absolutely beautifully hand made with incredible precision - it's also aged beautifully and sounds very mellow and rich. Alas it only has a EF14 tube (I just sourced a spare NOS EF14 in tested A++ state that cost me $500!) So as pointed out numerous times by professional mic experts it fails to truly capture the sound of the U47. Having used several original U47's they are of course correct, thus my hope for a replacement valve from Neumann! After all, as proven by the M49V re-issue the world does work in mysterious ways :-) |
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ji43
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Post by ji43 on Aug 18, 2022 15:21:41 GMT -6
Can anyone confirm if you order with one of the options selected (specifically the S4 highpass bypassed), will this delay the build of the mic? Someone posted that mics ordered with the stock config will ship faster...seems easy enough to do myself, though after reading Klaus' review, and also after removing S2 in my U67 reissue, I think I will want the filter bypassed.
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Post by Chad on Aug 18, 2022 15:31:21 GMT -6
Can anyone confirm if you order with one of the options selected (specifically the S4 highpass bypassed), will this delay the build of the mic? Someone posted that mics ordered with the stock config will ship faster...seems easy enough to do myself, though after reading Klaus' review, and also after removing S2 in my U67 reissue, I think I will want the filter bypassed. My salesman confirmed with me my order would be delayed if I made any changes, so I asked for it to be “stock“. |
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Post by Chad on Aug 18, 2022 15:45:24 GMT -6
thehightenor does your CM7 have a Neumann Capsule? Cheers, Ross I was informed the M7 in my 15 year old Wunder CM7 was built by an old capsule maker who had previously and for many years made M7 capsules in Germany and was at the time making capsules for Wunder. I therefore conclude, my capsule is of a enviable pedigree. Now there's so much BS and urban myth surrounding clones that frankly I don't know if the information I was given by the dealer who told me he got this information from Mike at Wunder is true. But I like to think it's true and I choose to swim in the warm bath of this potential truth/ illusion. It certainly sounds fabulous and the capsule looks absolutely beautifully hand made with incredible precision - it's also aged beautifully and sounds very mellow and rich. Alas it only has a EF14 tube (I just sourced a spare NOS EF14 in tested A++ state that cost me $500!) So as pointed out numerous times by professional mic experts it fails to truly capture the sound of the U47. Having used several original U47's they are of course correct, thus my hope for a replacement valve from Neumann! After all, as proven by the M49V re-issue the world does work in mysterious ways :-) I asked Mike Castoro of Wunder Audio who makes their M7 capsules, and found out it’s a Thiersch Mylar skinned Swiss-made Wunder backplate. (I believe this is also mentioned somewhere on their website.) |
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Post by thehightenor on Aug 18, 2022 16:09:06 GMT -6
I was informed the M7 in my 15 year old Wunder CM7 was built by an old capsule maker who had previously and for many years made M7 capsules in Germany and was at the time making capsules for Wunder. I therefore conclude, my capsule is of a enviable pedigree. Now there's so much BS and urban myth surrounding clones that frankly I don't know if the information I was given by the dealer who told me he got this information from Mike at Wunder is true. But I like to think it's true and I choose to swim in the warm bath of this potential truth/ illusion. It certainly sounds fabulous and the capsule looks absolutely beautifully hand made with incredible precision - it's also aged beautifully and sounds very mellow and rich. Alas it only has a EF14 tube (I just sourced a spare NOS EF14 in tested A++ state that cost me $500!) So as pointed out numerous times by professional mic experts it fails to truly capture the sound of the U47. Having used several original U47's they are of course correct, thus my hope for a replacement valve from Neumann! After all, as proven by the M49V re-issue the world does work in mysterious ways :-) I asked Mike Castoro of Wunder Audio who makes their M7 capsules, and found out it’s a Thiersch Mylar skinned Swiss-made Wunder backplate. (I believe this is also mentioned somewhere on their website.) I bought one of his very early mics, I was told my capsule was part constructed by an ex Berlin Neumann employee who had come out of retirement and was skinning M7's for Mike. Now I was told this by my then dealer who I bought a lot of gear from and I had no reason not to trust his word - as I said it may be truth or more clone making urban myth. My CM7 is from 2006, I'm sure Mike has different arrangements now anyway. I like to run with these things, it makes me sing better :-) |
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Post by aremos on Aug 18, 2022 16:34:00 GMT -6
I'm hoping, when Neumann eventually reissue the U47 and use an alternative tube to the VF-14, it also meets with Mr Heyne's stamp of approval. I think Dr.Bill addressed this but here's the full quote (& in context) from Klaus on why Neumann won't release a U47:
"My experience with any of the AC701-powered Neumann, AKG and Schoeps mics has been that this triode never was much of a “sound machine” in the first place. I find the AC701 to be about the most neutral of tubes I have encountered, with a timbre that is subtle to non-detectable, and with a dynamic behavior different from that of the triode-wired EF86 and VF14 pentodes. With these two, tube timbre plays a vital role in the signature sounds of the U67****, and especially the U47, whose reissue, to my mind, would be unthinkable with any other tube than a VF14."
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Post by thehightenor on Aug 18, 2022 16:47:59 GMT -6
I'm hoping, when Neumann eventually reissue the U47 and use an alternative tube to the VF-14, it also meets with Mr Heyne's stamp of approval. I think Dr.Bill addressed this but here's the full quote (& in context) from Klaus on why Neumann won't release a U47:
"My experience with any of the AC701-powered Neumann, AKG and Schoeps mics has been that this triode never was much of a “sound machine” in the first place. I find the AC701 to be about the most neutral of tubes I have encountered, with a timbre that is subtle to non-detectable, and with a dynamic behavior different from that of the triode-wired EF86 and VF14 pentodes. With these two, tube timbre plays a vital role in the signature sounds of the U67****, and especially the U47, whose reissue, to my mind, would be unthinkable with any other tube than a VF14."
It is true on my HEDD 192 it has two tube FX's Triode and Pentode. It is extremely difficult to hear the effect of the triode knob and very easy to hear the effect of the pentode knob. That said, Neumann did reissue the U67. The unthinkable may be thinkable to the Sennheiser accounts department (a cynical moment there) maybe there will, maybe there won't be a U47 re-issue. We're there's a will there's a way - as the saying goes. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Aug 18, 2022 16:57:38 GMT -6
RE: categorizing the AC701 as neutral or not having that much impact on the sound of the vintage Neumann's..... My experience is pretty much the opposite. I have tried / used / owned a lot of vintage Neumann's in the studio's (I have not owned a U47 though), and my impression is that the AC701 absolutely brings an intangible to the party that cannot be understated. This mystery push to make the unidentified tube the sonic equal of an AC701 definitely leaves me suspicious. -- Kla** or no Kla**. I respect the man immensely, but too much of this smells like marketing to me. I would be SOOOOO happy to be proved wrong, but I honestly don't think so. If this new tube is the equivalent to an AC701, why have so many of the classic Neumann DOA mics not been retrofitted with this *new* tube in the past? If it's a complete match with no change of transformer or other circuitry, Neumann should be proud of their find and should be retrofitting vintage 50's, 49's, 269's, 53's, 54's, etc. with these new (old) equivalent tubes. If that question can be answered to a satisfaction, my doubts may be assuaged - a bit. Until then, I remain wishfully optimistic, but experientially cautious. thehightenor - re: the eventual re-release to the U47 and a VF14 "replacement".... unless I'm mistaken, Kla** has already mentioned that there IS no "acceptable" replacement for the VF14 available. So that would preclude Neumann from a 47 re-release that was a legit "clone" of the original. That or you and Klaus are really in complete agreement, the tone you love is his transparency, and you might like this tube🥸 Who knows ? When it becomes common knowledge you will have to try one. My take, first it will be interesting to see if all 49’s have capsules tensioned to Klaus’s preferred tension and if this becomes standard for K47/49 capsules. Second I think while maybe not dead on copies I think for the money we will realize the Flea is a bargain. |
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Post by ab101 on Aug 18, 2022 17:30:58 GMT -6
Second I think while maybe not dead on copies I think for the money we will realize the Flea is a bargain. Flea may very well be a bargain and most people do not pay extra because of the "name." |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Aug 18, 2022 17:38:36 GMT -6
Second I think while maybe not dead on copies I think for the money we will realize the Flea is a bargain. Flea may very well be a bargain and most people do not pay extra because of the "name." What will be I interesting to see is if one of the many capsule manufacturers gets a hold of a 49v and starts to tension their version to mimic Klaus! Add in the eventual revealing of the new tube and the definitive reissue could lead to even better clones. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Aug 18, 2022 21:12:54 GMT -6
I asked Mike Castoro of Wunder Audio who makes their M7 capsules, and found out it’s a Thiersch Mylar skinned Swiss-made Wunder backplate. (I believe this is also mentioned somewhere on their website.) I bought one of his very early mics, I was told my capsule was part constructed by an ex Berlin Neumann employee who had come out of retirement and was skinning M7's for Mike. Now I was told this by my then dealer who I bought a lot of gear from and I had no reason not to trust his word - as I said it may be truth or more clone making urban myth. My CM7 is from 2006, I'm sure Mike has different arrangements now anyway. I like to run with these things, it makes me sing better :-) Man I have heard so many stories that contradict each other for most manufacturers and who makes their capsules that unless I hear it from the manufacturer sitting next to his capsule supplier I take it all as BS. |
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Post by thehightenor on Aug 19, 2022 5:18:10 GMT -6
I bought one of his very early mics, I was told my capsule was part constructed by an ex Berlin Neumann employee who had come out of retirement and was skinning M7's for Mike. Now I was told this by my then dealer who I bought a lot of gear from and I had no reason not to trust his word - as I said it may be truth or more clone making urban myth. My CM7 is from 2006, I'm sure Mike has different arrangements now anyway. I like to run with these things, it makes me sing better :-) Man I have heard so many stories that contradict each other for most manufacturers and who makes their capsules that unless I hear it from the manufacturer sitting next to his capsule supplier I take it all as BS. I know right. People say FleA make the metal work for Wunder, I’ve heard Mike say no they don’t - but often these things are “at the time” and things change where things are sourced. Actually I did speak to Mike 14 years ago when I bought CM7 and I do remember him telling me my capsule was skinned by the very same person the dealer described, so unless my memory is faulty on this point, I’m fairly certain my capsule isn’t the same as he’s having them made now. One thing Mike did do is tweak my capsule to suit my voice and it’s a beautiful fit - like a glove to a hand. In my very humble option the performance of my CM7 justifies it’s price and the price difference to other clones like the FleA 47. I checked my receipt and I payed 3K for my CM7 - they’re now 6.5K so these higher end mics do seem to be a reasonable investment. |
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tclay
New Member
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Post by tclay on Aug 19, 2022 8:00:16 GMT -6
Speaking of tube suppliers, does anyone have any recommendations for the UK or Europe?
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Post by chessparov on Aug 19, 2022 8:45:51 GMT -6
"I like to run with these things, it makes me sing better" I dunno. I might even do a little dancing. But running? You must be using an extra long cable. Maybe wireless?  Chris |
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Post by mcirish on Aug 19, 2022 10:18:21 GMT -6
I was informed the M7 in my 15 year old Wunder CM7 was built by an old capsule maker who had previously and for many years made M7 capsules in Germany and was at the time making capsules for Wunder. I therefore conclude, my capsule is of a enviable pedigree. Now there's so much BS and urban myth surrounding clones that frankly I don't know if the information I was given by the dealer who told me he got this information from Mike at Wunder is true. But I like to think it's true and I choose to swim in the warm bath of this potential truth/ illusion. It certainly sounds fabulous and the capsule looks absolutely beautifully hand made with incredible precision - it's also aged beautifully and sounds very mellow and rich. Alas it only has a EF14 tube (I just sourced a spare NOS EF14 in tested A++ state that cost me $500!) So as pointed out numerous times by professional mic experts it fails to truly capture the sound of the U47. Having used several original U47's they are of course correct, thus my hope for a replacement valve from Neumann! After all, as proven by the M49V re-issue the world does work in mysterious ways :-) I asked Mike Castoro of Wunder Audio who makes their M7 capsules, and found out it’s a Thiersch Mylar skinned Swiss-made Wunder backplate. (I believe this is also mentioned somewhere on their website.) I have a CM7/M7 and it is a Thiersch Red. I had to have mine replaced some years ago as it was making some crazy noises. I don't know if Mike changed manufacturers of capsules over the years But I've had mine for probably 15 years and it came with the Thiersch. OK... back to the other subjects. I was on the Beesneez site and I noticed Ben is using the 6S6B tube in his M49 mic. Makes me wonder if Neumann got the idea of using that tube from Ben. |
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Post by ab101 on Aug 19, 2022 10:34:56 GMT -6
... I was on the Beesneez site and I noticed Ben is using the 6S6B tube in his M49 mic. Makes me wonder if Neumann got the idea of using that tube from Ben. ... Klaus says it is not a 6S6B tube. However, it is possible with FleA and Beesneez (and others) using the 6S6B, this may have led Neumann to a similar tube. Correction added: Klaus said that in regard to the prototype received from Neumann, it was not a 6S6B as it was marked, obviously as something else. Then Klaus said that in his 2nd receipt, the marking of the tube was removed, so he is not sure about the identity of the tube. (See post below by michaelcleary.) |
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Post by michaelcleary on Aug 19, 2022 11:00:05 GMT -6
... I was on the Beesneez site and I noticed Ben is using the 6S6B tube in his M49 mic. Makes me wonder if Neumann got the idea of using that tube from Ben. ... Klaus says it is not a 6S6B tube. However, it is possible with FleA and Beesneez (and others) using the 6S6B, this may have led Neumann to a similar tube. To be fair, he said the tube in his 1st sample was similar but not a 6S6B. The tube in the next sample was different but he could not identify it so it is possible that it might be a 6S6B, at least thats how I read it. Quote below. "Though the tube in my prototype specimen in March looked similar to a 6S6B, a Russian military type, it was not a 6S6B (Neumann did not fully rub out the label, so I could clearly identify it). That tube was changed out on the mic's second trip to Oregon. As the i.d. on the new tube was completely removed, I cannot confirm whether it’s the same or a different type that will be used in the serial M49V (see above)." |
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Post by recordingengineer on Aug 19, 2022 11:33:16 GMT -6
Yes, that whole part is weirdly-worded; I imagine on purpose.
I noticed how he said that in the prototype, what it was not, but also did not say what it was, even though he also said that he knew. It also does NOt say the second delivery or the release version is or is not a 6S6B
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Post by michaelcleary on Aug 19, 2022 12:04:37 GMT -6
Yes, that whole part is weirdly-worded; I imagine on purpose. I noticed how he said that in the prototype, what it was not, but also did not say what it was, even though he also said that he knew. It also does NOt say the second delivery or the release version is or is not a 6S6B So, you're saying there's a chance...... |
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Post by thehightenor on Aug 19, 2022 12:12:51 GMT -6
I asked Mike Castoro of Wunder Audio who makes their M7 capsules, and found out it’s a Thiersch Mylar skinned Swiss-made Wunder backplate. (I believe this is also mentioned somewhere on their website.) I have a CM7/M7 and it is a Thiersch Red. I had to have mine replaced some years ago as it was making some crazy noises. I don't know if Mike changed manufacturers of capsules over the years But I've had mine for probably 15 years and it came with the Thiersch. OK... back to the other subjects. I was on the Beesneez site and I noticed Ben is using the 6S6B tube in his M49 mic. Makes me wonder if Neumann got the idea of using that tube from Ben. Interesting, it the capsule or housing red in some way? |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Aug 19, 2022 12:38:16 GMT -6
I have a CM7/M7 and it is a Thiersch Red. I had to have mine replaced some years ago as it was making some crazy noises. I don't know if Mike changed manufacturers of capsules over the years But I've had mine for probably 15 years and it came with the Thiersch. OK... back to the other subjects. I was on the Beesneez site and I noticed Ben is using the 6S6B tube in his M49 mic. Makes me wonder if Neumann got the idea of using that tube from Ben. Interesting, it the capsule or housing red in some way? It’s just how Thirsch distinguishes the 2 different diaphragm materials. |
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Post by ab101 on Aug 19, 2022 12:55:11 GMT -6
Klaus says it is not a 6S6B tube. However, it is possible with FleA and Beesneez (and others) using the 6S6B, this may have led Neumann to a similar tube. To be fair, he said the tube in his 1st sample was similar but not a 6S6B. The tube in the next sample was different but he could not identify it so it is possible that it might be a 6S6B, at least thats how I read it. Quote below. "Though the tube in my prototype specimen in March looked similar to a 6S6B, a Russian military type, it was not a 6S6B (Neumann did not fully rub out the label, so I could clearly identify it). That tube was changed out on the mic's second trip to Oregon. As the i.d. on the new tube was completely removed, I cannot confirm whether it’s the same or a different type that will be used in the serial M49V (see above)." Thank you. I updated my post. Clearly, Klaus is saying the prototype was not a 6S6B. As to the tube on the "second trip" to Klaus, the only thing I can discern is that the i.d. was removed and Klaus cannot confirm if it's the same (likely meaning "same as in the prototype) or a "different type" that will actually be in the mic someone purchases from Neumann. Maybe some of you or Klaus can state more. |
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