olionajudah
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just learning .. one mistake at a time
Posts: 48
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Post by olionajudah on Aug 16, 2022 12:34:36 GMT -6
There are some available for about $20 from dependable sellers. $20 from someone you can trust is not bad At all. Probably a silly question, so forgive me ..but I honestly do not know how to discern a dependable valve seller from the rest.. I've only ever purchased replacement valves from manufacturers (Mercury, Chandler) or from Bowie. Perhaps this is what is meant by dependable, but if anyone has additional personal referrals, I'd love to keep 'em in my 'rolodex'. Bowie has been exceptional to work with as far as sourcing NOS valves as far as I'm concerned... and I've also been happy with manufacturer supplied valves (most often russian units IIRC). Also, with regards to the 6s6b, being a subminiature, and a replacement for the AC701, I assume the leads are soldered, rather than socketed in place... and the photo seems to bear this out. Would you aspiring M49v owners expect to purchase spares? .. and if so, would you also expect to handle the replacement yourselves? (after the 1 year warranty period ends of course) or would you likely send them to Neumann or your own tech? I assume Neumann will offer a reasonably priced replacement service for these, but I also assume we can expect a long life out of these.. or whatever tube ends up coming equipped in these new mics.
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Post by ab101 on Aug 16, 2022 13:13:54 GMT -6
I have had great experiences with tubedepot.com I do not believe they have the 6s6b. And tube depot is expensive. I have received tele ef806s tubes from them that have performed well, along with other tubes. I have also had great experiences with www.kcanostubes.com/I have also bought tubes from Manley and Rode, though it has been some years. Sometimes buying from a reputable pro manufacturer that is not depending on tube sales, is a good way to go, especially if they are hand picking them from a large lot. It would be nice if Neumann placed a spare in its mic kit if they have a large quantity of these tubes. Does this mean that a bad tube cannot happen from a reputable dealer? Of course it can happen. Sometimes a tube goes for some reason that is not the fault of the dealer. I like to talk to people and establish a relationship. A dealer that uses reliable tests and great reviews is always helpful. Google people. Look for reviews, good and bad. Sadly, unlike socketed tubes, this is a little more risky. With socketed tubes, it is easier to swap them and test them. So, for instance, if they are inexpensive, one could buy 3 or 5 of them, and then use the best one. With the subminiatures that have to be soldered in place, that is a lot more cumbersome. And if this is all a headache, that is why we have Klaus who can be sent the mic and check everything, and I assume change out the tube if needed.
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Post by EmRR on Aug 16, 2022 14:04:29 GMT -6
12AX7's and guitar amps have really muddied the waters for the way people think about tubes, noise, and reliability.
These should likely never need replacing, just as there are many many well working AC701K's and VF14's still in the wild after all these years. Sub-mini's generally all have much higher transconductance than typical plug-in tubes, and I think that plays into noise, life, etc. Most are rated for extreme altitude and G forces for use in military planes, missles, etc. The typical thing of dropping your guitar amp a foot and afterwards having a noisy tube isn't at all in play in the same way. "Wild boogie action" rating, as Angela Instruments used to say when referring to such tubes.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,098
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Post by ericn on Aug 16, 2022 15:22:04 GMT -6
$20 from someone you can trust is not bad At all. Probably a silly question, so forgive me ..but I honestly do not know how to discern a dependable valve seller from the rest.. I've only ever purchased replacement valves from manufacturers (Mercury, Chandler) or from Bowie. Perhaps this is what is meant by dependable, but if anyone has additional personal referrals, I'd love to keep 'em in my 'rolodex'. Bowie has been exceptional to work with as far as sourcing NOS valves as far as I'm concerned... and I've also been happy with manufacturer supplied valves (most often russian units IIRC). Also, with regards to the 6s6b, being a subminiature, and a replacement for the AC701, I assume the leads are soldered, rather than socketed in place... and the photo seems to bear this out. Would you aspiring M49v owners expect to purchase spares? .. and if so, would you also expect to handle the replacement yourselves? (after the 1 year warranty period ends of course) or would you likely send them to Neumann or your own tech? I assume Neumann will offer a reasonably priced replacement service for these, but I also assume we can expect a long life out of these.. or whatever tube ends up coming equipped in these new mics. Bowie is the definition of a trusted source as for the rest I would have to do some research.
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Post by reddirt on Aug 16, 2022 15:36:16 GMT -6
Your search could start and end with Bowie. IME totally dependable/knowledgeable etc. Cheers, Ross
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olionajudah
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just learning .. one mistake at a time
Posts: 48
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Post by olionajudah on Aug 16, 2022 19:37:56 GMT -6
Yes, my experience dealing with Bowie was perfect. He was absolutely great.
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Post by Ward on Aug 17, 2022 6:59:05 GMT -6
There are some available for about $20 from dependable sellers. $20 from someone you can trust is not bad At all. I bought three . . . just in case.
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Post by Omicron9 on Aug 17, 2022 8:49:23 GMT -6
Your search could start and end with Bowie. IME totally dependable/knowledgeable etc. Cheers, Ross +1 for Bowie. Not only knowledgeable and dependable, but a totally nice and helpful person as well. -09
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Post by Vincent R. on Aug 17, 2022 10:24:43 GMT -6
Bowie is the way to go until you find yourself looking for a tube he doesn't sell, which has happened to me a couple of times. So I do enjoy hearing other options as well. I have also used www.Tubedepot.com and www.upscaleaudio.com.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Aug 17, 2022 10:41:37 GMT -6
Bowie is the way to go until you find yourself looking for a tube he doesn't sell, which has happened to me a couple of times. So I do enjoy hearing other options as well. I have also used www.Tubedepot.com and www.upscaleaudio.com. Upscale is primarily a high end consumer dealer, they have a pretty good reputation in the audiophile world.
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Post by ab101 on Aug 17, 2022 11:18:11 GMT -6
If Neumann is really hand picking these tubes, how are they testing them? What is happening to the rejects? Are the rejects back out on the market? Are they soldering them into mics and listening as part of the test? If that is the case, then if someone really wants to know if their tube is as good as the one Klaus says is indistinguishable from the AC701, then it seems that it makes sense to contact Klaus.
Another option might be buying the tube from Beesneez or Flea who uses this tube in their mics. But unless they are testing the tube they are selling in a microphone, then I am not sure it is going to be on the level of the hand picked Neumann tube. And yes, Neumann may actually be selecting some tubes and rejecting others. I remember talking to a mic manufacturer about a particular tube, and it was interesting how many were rejected. I am not sure how this applies to the particular tube at issue, in terms of reject rate. As I understand from reading, even some AC701s get rejected.
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Post by EmRR on Aug 17, 2022 12:05:36 GMT -6
Well, they build a giant test jig that can burn in and test 100 tubes at a time, with circuit constants replicated. That’s what I’ve seen a few places and what was also done historically for critical apps. The real cost on a large batch is a couple $ apiece, they can afford to toss them.
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Post by michaelcleary on Aug 17, 2022 14:34:26 GMT -6
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Post by EmRR on Aug 17, 2022 14:49:21 GMT -6
well then
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Post by mattcollen on Aug 17, 2022 15:00:25 GMT -6
👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻 Great news!
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Post by seawell on Aug 17, 2022 15:34:40 GMT -6
That’s awesome! I hope they’ve pulled it off and that they continue to go down the line in bringing back the classics. I’d rather them figure it out now while there are still good vintage units to compare against.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Aug 17, 2022 15:38:58 GMT -6
Well, they build a giant test jig that can burn in and test 100 tubes at a time, with circuit constants replicated. That’s what I’ve seen a few places and what was also done historically for critical apps. The real cost on a large batch is a couple $ apiece, they can afford to toss them. What Doug said, you build a jig burn them in test to your standard. In the early stages you figure out your probable reject rate, up it a bit in your projections, same with cost of tubes do to inflation and since it’s become public speculation.
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Post by ab101 on Aug 17, 2022 16:21:20 GMT -6
Apparently, the tube is still a mystery. See below - from Klaus's review: "***Though the tube in my prototype specimen in March looked similar to a 6S6B, a Russian military type, it was not a 6S6B (Neumann did not fully rub out the label, so I could clearly identify it). That tube was changed out on the mic's second trip to Oregon. As the i.d. on the new tube was completely removed, I cannot confirm whether it’s the same or a different type that will be used in the serial M49V (see above)." Quote from Klaus Heyne article: Neumann M49V: Complete Tear Down and Analysis germanmasterworks.com/publish/articles/GalleryOfGreats/Neumann-M49V%3A-Complete-Tear-Down-and-Analysis.html © Klaus Heyne, 2022
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Post by reddirt on Aug 17, 2022 16:41:19 GMT -6
If Klaus' review doesn't ease concerns, well what will. Thank god I simply don't have anywhere near the money or temptation would weigh heavy. Cheers, Ross
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Post by stevenlmorgan on Aug 17, 2022 16:47:23 GMT -6
Apparently, the tube is still a mystery. See below - from Klaus's review: "***Though the tube in my prototype specimen in March looked similar to a 6S6B, a Russian military type, it was not a 6S6B (Neumann did not fully rub out the label, so I could clearly identify it). That tube was changed out on the mic's second trip to Oregon. As the i.d. on the new tube was completely removed, I cannot confirm whether it’s the same or a different type that will be used in the serial M49V (see above)." I read the same today, looks similar to 6S6B but isn’t. Tube will purposely remain a mystery, “sounds great when S4 is opened.” “S4, the left, vertical one selects between linear bass reproduction, with a response flat down to the low teens (switch in the up position), and an audible low frequency cut (down position)” “I recommend to keep the low-end switch in the M49V in the linear (up) position: the new tube breathes more freely when not choked down via negative feedback.)” Copyright Klaus Heyne, quotes used as allowed per article. germanmasterworks.com/publish/articles/GalleryOfGreats/Neumann-M49V%3A-Complete-Tear-Down-and-Analysis.html
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Post by chessparov on Aug 17, 2022 21:22:32 GMT -6
Did Klaus ever fully explain the new tube "humming along"? (Did it forget the words?) Chris
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olionajudah
Full Member
just learning .. one mistake at a time
Posts: 48
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Post by olionajudah on Aug 17, 2022 23:22:59 GMT -6
Apparently, the tube is still a mystery. See below - from Klaus's review: "***Though the tube in my prototype specimen in March looked similar to a 6S6B, a Russian military type, it was not a 6S6B (Neumann did not fully rub out the label, so I could clearly identify it). That tube was changed out on the mic's second trip to Oregon. As the i.d. on the new tube was completely removed, I cannot confirm whether it’s the same or a different type that will be used in the serial M49V (see above)." “S4, the left, vertical one selects between linear bass reproduction, with a response flat down to the low teens (switch in the up position), and an audible low frequency cut (down position)” “I recommend to keep the low-end switch in the M49V in the linear (up) position: the new tube breathes more freely when not choked down via negative feedback.)” Copyright Klaus Heyne, quotes used as allowed per article. germanmasterworks.com/publish/articles/GalleryOfGreats/Neumann-M49V%3A-Complete-Tear-Down-and-Analysis.htmlthe 'operating manual' seems to indicate that the m49v will will ship with S4 the low cut engaged (down). "At the lower electrical cut-off frequency of 30 Hz (-3 dB), a fixed high-pass filter takes effect in order to attenuate very low frequency interferences. The cut-off frequency can be lowered to 12 Hz with an internal switch S4 in the microphone." ..Might be worth requesting from the dealer before they ship unless you are ready to open the mic yourself. As Klaus mentions, this will not void the warranty, assuming nothing is damaged in the process. Thanks for sharing!
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Post by Vincent R. on Aug 18, 2022 8:46:19 GMT -6
I read through the Klaus M49V breakdown. So it's not a 6S6B-V. I will say the 5703 looks remarkably like the 6S6B-V and they are equivalents, but a little different. Just putting that out there. lol. I also read through Klaus' M49 history post, which was linked in his M49V breakdown article. germanmasterworks.com/publish/articles/GalleryOfGreats/Neumann-M49.htmlSo, the high pass filter was implemented during the M49B production? The M49B seems to be the preferred version of the microphone, but is that with or without the high pass engaged? What frequency does the high pass begin to roll off? I have (2) FleA 49s and I'm pretty sure one is implementing the high pass and the other is not, so I'm curious.
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olionajudah
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just learning .. one mistake at a time
Posts: 48
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Post by olionajudah on Aug 18, 2022 9:19:17 GMT -6
I read through the Klaus M49V breakdown. So it's not a 6S6B-V. I will say the 5703 looks remarkably like the 6S6B-V and they are equivalents, but a little different. Just putting that out there. lol. I also read through Klaus' M49 history post, which was linked in his M49V breakdown article. germanmasterworks.com/publish/articles/GalleryOfGreats/Neumann-M49.htmlSo, the high pass filter was implemented during the M49B production? The M49B seems to be the preferred version of the microphone, but is that with or without the high pass engaged? What frequency does the high pass begin to roll off? I have (2) FleA 49s and I'm pretty sure one is implementing the high pass and the other is not, so I'm curious. Take all this with a grain of salt, but from my reading, the m49b version introduced a 'fixed low cut' filter (per Klaus' linked history post) selectable via an internal wire switch. If this original brochure is to be believed, the cutoff appears to be @ 40hz. recordinghacks.com/pdf/neumann/M49-M50.pdfAssuming all this is accurate, it seems they may have lowered this to 30hz on the V .. and of course provided the facility to disengage the negative feedback circuit entirely (per the original/a version), lowering sensitivity down to 12hz.. again by my reading only. I'm inferring from Klaus' writing that the differences here may have to do with the new tube.. as with the *very slight* hardness in the mids when the negative feedback circuit is engaged. Makes me wish they were shipping with S4 negative feedback circuit disengaged. I'm tempted to request this from my dealer now, but I'm not sure it's worth any delivery delay that might introduce. In practice I doubt this will matter much to me.. but it would remove the temptation to open the mic myself, which I'd honestly rather not do.
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Post by Vincent R. on Aug 18, 2022 10:08:44 GMT -6
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