DIY and How it is Affecting Pro Audio Developers etc..

I'll put it this way about the DIY Ric, our buddy Cat 5 has built (I think) 3 C-12's with the Tim Campbell capsule. His mics are honestly second to NONE IMO. I've heard them. One in particular is probably one the best sounding mics I've ever heard.

Granted Cat 5 might have somewhat of a magic tough with an iron and building, but to answer your question, yes. Sometimes it can be just a brand name and a bit of hype that sells the product.

Take Manley for example. Fine gear. Nothing in the world wrong with it and it's well designed stuff. But there is a good bit of lore that goes along with Manley. This one uses a Manley eq or that one uses a Manley compressor.

DIYers can do anything a developer can do and for pennies on the dollar in most cases. It may not look the same or have resale value as it's boutique counterpart but every much as good if not better in some cases.

My thought is, nobody sees what gear was used when listening to a record. It's all about the sound.

Is Cat 5's mic as good as a vintage C-12? Yes. Probably better than most. If your just worried about an end product of a great recording that is. If your looking for an investment along with good recording, then the AKG is the way to go I guess.

Should be a good thread.

I seriously need to learn how to solder. Prob said it 200 times. Need to make it happen

Great topic! cowboycoalminer nailed it with his response I think.

Hello 
I think cowboy pretty much nailed it, a couple things i would add..
   There is a natural and totally reasonable mystique that occurs with a lack of technical understanding pertaining to anything really, for an example, a few years ago i knew zero about audio electronics, i took the intimidating plunge into the DIY world, started learning, realized "hey this is pretty fun" and the results per $ ratio were blowing me away. Now i'm at the point where i'm making small changes to component values to steer projects into the sound i'm looking for, the mystique is going away in some ways for me, which is a really GREAT thing.
   That said, things still strike me as "magic", tubes, transformers and mic capsules are a big one. When i think of these three things, i get the same ewww?? feeling i used to get about certain circuits, i know little about their creation process, i know that some sound better and different than others, but i don't know exactly why?
   I honestly believe the reason equipment is such a hit and miss adventure these days, and the reason why vintage and diy equipment generally have such quality to them, is because... Back in the vintage days, and with DIYr's, all the parts they used/are using, were made to exacting military specs, with the highest quality ingredients, and the designers were/are trying to develope the absolute best end product they possibly could/can, no holds barred.
   Today the majority of parts manufacturers and circuit designs are basing outcome solely on bottom line profit margins, the capacitors, resistors, ic's, transformers, tubes, capsules are all selected with a "gettem to not break quickly so they don't come back as cheap as possible" mentality, and top quality is far from the mind set. Once in a while all the component and construction stars align with this approach, and you'll find a good one(this applies with musical instruments as well, and is especially true with modern guitars IME)

Think about it, (arbitrary) if Rode designs a really good mic circuit, they project they are going to sell 500,000 units, if they save $2 dollars on capacitors, they're going to put (pinky in corner of mouth) 1,000,000 dollars in their pocket, "who cares if the mic sounds marginally better with the more expensive caps, no one will notice"....says the CEO

as always JMO

great thread @rickfoxx

...I can chime in from the perspective of not actually building the DIY offerings myself (due to my admitted lack of skills, tools, patience, etc) but rather hiring an experienced builder to do the work for me...granted, the savings aren't as spectacular, but when compared to most of the reputable, branded variations, the actual savings and the added opportunity to detail the key components myself makes for a very viable option...I currently have 2 in my locker, and another in the build process...the one currently being built will cost me in the ballpark of $1500 and based on the proven credibility of the circuit and the top-shelf components being used, should compare with boutique versions ranging from a low of $3K to upwards of $6K...I believe, based on my own DIY mics and others I've heard, that there's no classic clone (using the best components available) that can't be had for much more than $2K...

...and when you consider the variance of sound among the remaining original examples of the classic tube mics, the boutique-brand factor is not so much an issue for me...I agree entirely with cowboycoalminer when he said, "My thought is, nobody sees what gear was used when listening to a record. It's all about the sound"...amen!...

...so if you've got the skills, a soldering iron, and a trusty multi-meter, you're even waaaaaaay further ahead of the curve...(and keep in mind, even if you have a build issue, you've got a community of capable DIY'ers more than willing to source out the problem...great community of guys!)...

Sure, but there are some aspects that no one seems to look at.  Honda might last a long time and be cheap, but it'll never ride as nice or look as nice as a Mercedes.  The Mercedes might last a long time and ride nicer than the Honda but it'll cost you more.

Then you look at small areas.  Mercedes will always have a nicer stereo and more sound deadening.  Honda will always be cheaper.

Mercedes uses tire sizes that are more expensive but handle better and stop better than Honda.  Honda will be cheaper, but more dangerous.

Mercedes will have standard options that Honda will charge a lot for.  Once fully optioned, Honda might not be that much cheaper.

And on and on.

So yeah there is plenty of room, but I think folks are generalizing that DIY somehow always gets you top quality for the cheapest price, which is certainly not true.  It can save you cash, but you will burn the savings in time.  

Also, the clone will always be a clone.  Some cloners have come very close to the real thing, while others are hit/miss.  Do you want to spend any money on something that might not deliver?  

I still say that DIY is first and foremost for the type of folks who want to learn and experience.  Those who expect to get something for nothing might be very disappointed.

I'm ok with that - I mean, I probably am more likely to have a DIY 47 than owning a vintage one - but what's wrong with someone that wants the real thing? It happens every day in the consumer market...Izod vs. GAP, Lexapro vs. Escitalopram, Paul Mitchell vs. Prell, etc. Some people would rather spend their money on a name brand. I'm not trying to be disagreeable, I just don't see why it's so upsetting to some...

And neither has to be the "right" way...

The emotional content always comes from what people source their pride (ego) from.

Some buy name brands because they want to use the best, because of the belief it is better.  Some want to because they think they are one-upping someone else and thus reinforcing their belief that they are better than others..

Same goes for DIY.  Some do it strictly for the learning, and may or may not take pride in doing so above someone else who can't/won't.  Others might think they are getting back at overpriced manufacturers, like "sticking it to the man", or something.  Others just believe they are one-upping the poor sod who bought some expensive thing and got taken advantage of.

But in any case, people get upset when you step on their beliefs, or otherwise cause them to question their beliefs.  People will always rage at something that threatens their belief security.

That's my 2 years of psychology in college for ya.

Maybe I'm just reading it wrong - but sometimes it feels like that is absolutely the case...Sometimes with DIY, I get the sense that it's kind of the "if you want to buy that, go ahead, but you're stupid"...it makes me roll my eyes sometimes.

No, I'd say you're not wrong.  In my DIY heavy days I got more than a few offhanded remarks about the end result of some of the projects.  Mics are a particular touchy subject to the DIY crowd I think.  To suggest that their baby is ugly is tantamount to murder in some folks eyes.  I bought a few pieces to build some mics back in the day (I won't mention brands, but it's parts that're being mentioned on this forum as well) and while they were OK, my Gefell mics which have the real parts still ate their lunches and took their milk money.  While the parts were supposed to be "just like the real thing", I found that they weren't.  They sounded fine, but they weren't as advertised.  I found that even in the DIY world, hype is there too.

I ended up selling the parts for more than I bought them for due to the hype. 

The other thing is that most of these hi end boutique manufacturers are actually just DIY guys that are building the items, branding them, and selling them for a profit right? Really, what makes a Flea 47 (not hating on Flea by any means, just an expensive name that came to mind) better than a DIY 47? Same circuit that they're using I imagine. They must just be making their own capsule? Maybe not even? Really, it just comes down to having their logo on the front vs. an unbranded body right?

Other boutique companies are making their own things. There was a thread about the Charter Oak compressor the other day. They're a fairly small company in the grand scheme. What's different about them vs. JohnnyDIY designing some compressor.

When does it stop being DIY and become a boutique company? If tonycamphd builds me a mic and charges me a few bucks for the build, does that make him not a DIYer anymore and a Boutique Company? How about if he files some paperwork, makes a site, and sticks a ToneBone badge on his mic? Now he's a boutique? I think the line is finer than we see with our eyes.

note to self.. ToneBone 47,, hmmmm lol, i love that
I believe flea uses Thiersch capsules and re brands as F47 F7, unless im mistaken, but i'm pretty sure that is the case.