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Post by Johnkenn on May 5, 2014 14:59:34 GMT -6
I think aesthetics mean a lot to some people - myself included. Also - if I'm going to spend over $1000 on a DIY mic, that's usually a mic that I'm not going to be able to re-sell (if I don't like it) for more than a third of that price...I'm not hating on DIY - I would love to try some projects - but I've found that most of the time, you get what you pay for...Not ALL of the time, but most of the time.
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Post by jcoutu1 on May 5, 2014 15:03:02 GMT -6
The other thing is that most of these hi end boutique manufacturers are actually just DIY guys that are building the items, branding them, and selling them for a profit right? Really, what makes a Flea 47 (not hating on Flea by any means, just an expensive name that came to mind) better than a DIY 47? Same circuit that they're using I imagine. They must just be making their own capsule? Maybe not even? Really, it just comes down to having their logo on the front vs. an unbranded body right? Other boutique companies are making their own things. There was a thread about the Charter Oak compressor the other day. They're a fairly small company in the grand scheme. What's different about them vs. JohnnyDIY designing some compressor. When does it stop being DIY and become a boutique company? If tonycamphd builds me a mic and charges me a few bucks for the build, does that make him not a DIYer anymore and a Boutique Company? How about if he files some paperwork, makes a site, and sticks a ToneBone badge on his mic? Now he's a boutique? I think the line is finer than we see with our eyes. note to self.. ToneBone 47,, hmmmm lol, i love that I believe flea uses Thiersch capsules and re brands as F47 F7, unless im mistaken, but i'm pretty sure that is the case. Make sure you toss me some cash when you start marketing the ToneBone 47. I'll hype that as much as the day is long for ya.  Flea was just a name that came to mind. The capsule they're using is irrelevant. |
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Post by RicFoxx on May 5, 2014 15:03:18 GMT -6
The other thing is that most of these hi end boutique manufacturers are actually just DIY guys that are building the items, branding them, and selling them for a profit right? Really, what makes a Flea 47 (not hating on Flea by any means, just an expensive name that came to mind) better than a DIY 47? Same circuit that they're using I imagine. They must just be making their own capsule? Maybe not even? Really, it just comes down to having their logo on the front vs. an unbranded body right? Other boutique companies are making their own things. There was a thread about the Charter Oak compressor the other day. They're a fairly small company in the grand scheme. What's different about them vs. JohnnyDIY designing some compressor. When does it stop being DIY and become a boutique company? If tonycamphd builds me a mic and charges me a few bucks for the build, does that make him not a DIYer anymore and a Boutique Company? How about if he files some paperwork, makes a site, and sticks a ToneBone badge on his mic? Now he's a boutique? I think the line is finer than we see with our eyes. This is really one of the reasons I started this thread. Most businesses are just putting the parts together (sourcing) especially with this clone stuff (not all.) It's changing the pro audio field, I mean look at the Warm Audio stuff! |
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Post by jcoutu1 on May 5, 2014 15:08:02 GMT -6
I think aesthetics mean a lot to some people - myself included. Also - if I'm going to spend over $1000 on a DIY mic, that's usually a mic that I'm not going to be able to re-sell (if I don't like it) for more than a third of that price...I'm not hating on DIY - I would love to try some projects - but I've found that most of the time, you get what you pay for...Not ALL of the time, but most of the time. I'm with you on the aesthetics too. If the DIY stuff looks like homemade junk, I'm not interested. I don't care how good it sounds, it's gotta look pro too. I'm not sure how the resale is on these DIY things. The built CAPI pres seem to sell pretty well. I haven't really seen any legit DIY 47's for sale anywhere. I've seen some modded 460's or Joly stuff and that doesn't seem to fetch much, but I'm not sure about a $2000 DIY47. I bet something like that would fetch a pretty penny. People like you or I would grab one of those of for a third of the price without hesitation if they came up, but I'm not seeing them, and especially not seeing them that cheap. I guess the issue with that is that guys like us don't know what's actually in theis $2000 DIY mic that the guy is selling right? He could tell you that it's a Thirsch capsule or something, but I would have no idea. Could be loaded with an MXL and I'd have no idea. |
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Post by Johnkenn on May 5, 2014 15:14:44 GMT -6
jsteiger has done a killer job with aesthetics...His is a great example of turning something that already sounds fantastic into something that is flying off the shelves like hotcakes by combining great sound with professional look. I know some will poo poo what I'm saying, but I really do think it matters. Looks matter...how else can we explain Bro Country?
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Post by RicFoxx on May 5, 2014 15:23:55 GMT -6
Yeah, Im not talking about junky looking stuff. Im talking about well thought out articulated pieces of gear. Isntt most metal work done in the far east anyway...even on the high end side. I mean this is a killer look!  |
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Post by cowboycoalminer on May 5, 2014 15:57:11 GMT -6
The other thing is that most of these hi end boutique manufacturers are actually just DIY guys that are building the items, branding them, and selling them for a profit right? Really, what makes a Flea 47 (not hating on Flea by any means, just an expensive name that came to mind) better than a DIY 47? Same circuit that they're using I imagine. They must just be making their own capsule? Maybe not even? Really, it just comes down to having their logo on the front vs. an unbranded body right? Other boutique companies are making their own things. There was a thread about the Charter Oak compressor the other day. They're a fairly small company in the grand scheme. What's different about them vs. JohnnyDIY designing some compressor. When does it stop being DIY and become a boutique company? If tonycamphd builds me a mic and charges me a few bucks for the build, does that make him not a DIYer anymore and a Boutique Company? How about if he files some paperwork, makes a site, and sticks a ToneBone badge on his mic? Now he's a boutique? I think the line is finer than we see with our eyes. The line is indeed smaller than anyone cares to admit. If you saw Apogee's shop, you'd probably shit. No bigger than your local pawn shop. Burl?? A recording studio in Santa Cruz where a guy wanted to build a better converter for his studio. Call Burl sometime. I couldn't hardly hear what the guy was saying for the music in the background. Gear dudes are nothing more than music makers like us who are always looking to improve on what we already have. Nothing at all wrong with that. And then you have guys like Slate who are striving to perfect digital and boy do we love to crucify guys like that. But in reality, he's no different than the guy sitting in his shop with an iron trying out different parts. I love my vintage and boutique gear. They are precious instruments. But I also like finding great new products. It's all good. |
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Post by kidvybes on May 5, 2014 16:40:19 GMT -6
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Post by kidvybes on May 5, 2014 16:52:58 GMT -6
I haven't really seen any legit DIY 47's for sale anywhere. I've seen some modded 460's or Joly stuff and that doesn't seem to fetch much, but I'm not sure about a $2000 DIY47. I bet something like that would fetch a pretty penny. People like you or I would grab one of those of for a third of the price without hesitation if they came up, but I'm not seeing them, and especially not seeing them that cheap. I guess the issue with that is that guys like us don't know what's actually in theis $2000 DIY mic that the guy is selling right? He could tell you that it's a Thirsch capsule or something, but I would have no idea. Could be loaded with an MXL and I'd have no idea. ...seriously?...have you ever looked under the hood of your car? (lol)...the builders I'm referencing will send detail pics of the mics they build...you can easily verify the Thiersch capsule, AMI transformer, PIO caps, vintage NOS tube, etc...they can send you sample files before they ship...and the guys I buy from are more than willing to back up their product should there be an issue...some have studio businesses, so they're not out to play games...this is not eBay... ...you want a $2K U47 with a Thiersch capsule, AMI historic BV8 tranny, NOS metal tube, PIO caps and a Equinox body/headbasket?...feel free to PM me and I'll reply with referrals and pics... |
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Post by Johnkenn on May 5, 2014 17:10:45 GMT -6
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Post by jcoutu1 on May 5, 2014 17:36:32 GMT -6
I haven't really seen any legit DIY 47's for sale anywhere. I've seen some modded 460's or Joly stuff and that doesn't seem to fetch much, but I'm not sure about a $2000 DIY47. I bet something like that would fetch a pretty penny. People like you or I would grab one of those of for a third of the price without hesitation if they came up, but I'm not seeing them, and especially not seeing them that cheap. I guess the issue with that is that guys like us don't know what's actually in theis $2000 DIY mic that the guy is selling right? He could tell you that it's a Thirsch capsule or something, but I would have no idea. Could be loaded with an MXL and I'd have no idea. ...seriously?...have you ever looked under the hood of your car? (lol)...the builders I'm referencing will send detail pics of the mics they build...you can easily verify the Thiersch capsule, AMI transformer, PIO caps, vintage NOS tube, etc...they can send you sample files before they ship...and the guys I buy from are more than willing to back up their product should there be an issue...some have studio businesses, so they're not out to play games...this is not eBay... ...you want a $2K U47 with a Thiersch capsule, AMI historic BV8 tranny, NOS metal tube, PIO caps and a Equinox body/headbasket?...feel free to PM me and I'll reply with referrals and pics... I was specifically referring to a second hand custom job. If guy x has his buddie Tony build him a custom job and guy x is selling on craigslist for $700. Sure, I have some resources that I can check with to find out if it's legit, but a lot of people looking at this stuff might not have someone to turn to. The pool of potential buyers shrinks. Especially if I buy it and decide is not for me. At that point, it's changed hands a couple times and perhaps the builder has gone MIA now. I'm just agreeing with John's point about resale value dropping on a custom DIY job vs. a "real" brand. |
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Post by Johnkenn on May 5, 2014 17:49:52 GMT -6
If I KNEW I was going to hang on to a mic for perpetuity, I would definitely go the DIY route...Say, if I needed a pair of C12's for overheads or something...
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Post by kidvybes on May 5, 2014 17:57:05 GMT -6
I was specifically referring to a second hand custom job. If guy x has his buddie Tony build him a custom job and guy x is selling on craigslist for $700. Sure, I have some resources that I can check with to find out if it's legit, but a lot of people looking at this stuff might not have someone to turn to. The pool of potential buyers shrinks. Especially if I buy it and decide is not for me. At that point, it's changed hands a couple times and perhaps the builder has gone MIA now. I'm just agreeing with John's point about resale value dropping on a custom DIY job vs. a "real" brand. ...OK. I understand your point now, but the DIY forum also has a classifieds section, and as long as the original builder is a reputable member, there's going to be an audience for pre-owned DIY mics...I've been in the market for pre-built DIY clones, and there is a waiting list with certain reputable builders, and available mics listed in the classifieds sell quickly for substantial cost...I would compare their resale value to the Pearlman TM-1 which sells new for $1600 and pre-owned go for $1200-1300...I think many of the "real" brands take a 20-25% hit in resale value when initially resold...it's only in repeated resales that the price stabilizes...safest route is always to buy pre-owned from a reputable seller... ...and as these DIY mics become better known and the builders more reputable, supply and demand becomes a factor just like some of the boutique brands...at some point in time Pearlman was essentially a "DIY" brand, when he started out...Beesneez as well... |
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Post by kidvybes on May 5, 2014 18:00:51 GMT -6
If I KNEW I was going to hang on to a mic for perpetuity, I would definitely go the DIY route...Say, if I needed a pair of C12's for overheads or something... ...if my memory serves me well, didn't you spend around $800 to upgrade a mic I can buy in stock form pre-owned for $900-1000?...where's the resale value in that purchase?...only a knowledgeable buyer, possibly a member of this forum would know the value of Shannon's modification...(I know, you're never going to sell it...hmmm...time will tell)... ...it's actually, not very different from buying/selling a DIY clone, IMHO... |
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Post by Johnkenn on May 5, 2014 18:36:19 GMT -6
Yep. Gonna keep it. But if I don't - guess what - I wouldn't get back what I have in it. So I guess that proves my point. The difference was this: Shannon and his work.
I've said several times that I don't have anything against DIY...in fact, I think the U47 is probably pretty much an easy one to replicate...Wouldn't mind having one with historical parts and a really good M7...
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Post by dandeurloo on May 5, 2014 21:13:52 GMT -6
I don't think that anyone has a problem with someone wanting the real thing.. Maybe I'm just reading it wrong - but sometimes it feels like that is absolutely the case...Sometimes with DIY, I get the sense that it's kind of the "if you want to buy that, go ahead, but you're stupid"...it makes me roll my eyes sometimes. John I see and understand both sides of your above statement. It really depends on the piece of gear and price. I have a lot of DIY and a lot of great name brand gear that I couldn't build any better, surely not any cheaper. It all depends on the the price and the piece of gear. Just get tools you like and trust. |
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Post by jeromemason on May 5, 2014 22:00:44 GMT -6
I'm really into DIY. So far, I have built a Telecaster, that if I had bought from fender would of costed me over 2k. I built that for a shade under $700. I built a handwired Tweed Deluxe for a shade under $700 also, that would have costed me at least 3k for if I wanted the same sound. I've built 2 guitar pedals that each sell for (yes really) $400 a piece and I might have $50 in each, maybe. I also built a 500 series 1176 for about that same price. I wouldn't trade that piece of gear for near about anything.
Is it the price though? Well partly, but, more so because of the components. "They don't make em like they use to" and that's 100% true. Most of the big name manufacturers use cheap components in gear they are selling for outrageous prices. When you do DIY and you know that you're using the premium Capacitors and resistors, and opamps, and everything else that they used to make sure went into this kind of gear, you start to have a feeling of being taken by the companies.
Another factor, and this is totally on whether you have some experience with changing the design to your own taste, but sometimes I see something in the design and I might swap around a value here and there because of something I didn't like about the original. Now, that's purely taste, but when I built my Overdrive pedal, it derived off a design that was derived off a TS-9. It's almost like an evolutionary thing, and you can taylor the sound to your liking, how its going to suit you the best. In the case of that pedal, I wanted a smoother overdrive, mainly for country, so I adjusted some things and it was beautiful to my ears and fit my own needs.
I also think there are sooooo many people who are into this out there that probably have no idea that they could build a Hairball 1176 bluestripe for $600. But it makes more sense for them to just buy one already done with the UA name on it because they see a hell of a lot more advertisement from them than the do from Hairball. If people actually knew how much these big companies build these units for it might make them want to learn how to build their own gear. I got inspired to do it because of Putnam himself. I think it's pretty important and a big benefit of knowing what a circuit is doing, and being able to build it. It really gives you a better understanding of the gear, and also a lot more appreciation for it. But, like I said, most people get flooded by advertisements from the big boys that it's just wired into their heads they need to buy the name brand gear. That's what I think at least.
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Post by bakamo ichigei on May 8, 2014 17:05:33 GMT -6
Hi all, just wanted to add my experiences:
On the name recognition thing- the last couple of gigs I've gotten were actually directly because people found out that I build my own stuff. I guess when it comes to who to pick to capture your precious songs, clearly the obsessed freak is the choice. And yes, they are impressed/inspired by the package first and foremost. (specificaly talking about the mk47 in a equnox body)
Also, when I had to sell my matachung c12 I ended up getting 50 bucks more than I paid for the kit, because it was a complete, tested fully functioning microphone, not a pile of stuff in baggies. hmmm, I should probably donate that to the groupdiy forum, because really, I wouldn't have been able to do it without that resource.
DIY isn't for everybody though. Most of my musician friends think that recording themselves is more than enough diy, let alone building their own mics. They are plenty happy spending bucks to buy new stuff from reputable companies. They wouldn't bat an eye at spending thousands of dollars on a les paul, when you could feasibly build a very nice guitar yourself for much much less if you had some skill and time. But it wouldn't be a Gibson. For me diy is just how I roll with everything except dentistry.
It looks like there is more and more cross-pollination between diy and manufacturers and that's got to be a Very Good Thing.
I know for a fact that it's a great time to be a gear-obsessed audio nerd right now and only getting better.
P.s. been lurking awhile- you guys are great and I'm stoked to be here.
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Post by tonycamphd on May 8, 2014 17:41:17 GMT -6
@bakamo ichigei good to have you here!
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Post by Johnkenn on May 8, 2014 18:43:15 GMT -6
[quote author=" jeromemason" source="/post/23066/thread" timestamp="1399348844" I also think there are sooooo many people who are into this out there that probably have no idea that they could build a Hairball 1176 bluestripe for $600. But it makes more sense for them to just buy one already done with the UA name on it because they see a hell of a lot more advertisement from them than the do from Hairball. If people actually knew how much these big companies build these units for it might make them want to learn how to build their own gear. I got inspired to do it because of Putnam himself. I think it's pretty important and a big benefit of knowing what a circuit is doing, and being able to build it. It really gives you a better understanding of the gear, and also a lot more appreciation for it. But, like I said, most people get flooded by advertisements from the big boys that it's just wired into their heads they need to buy the name brand gear. That's what I think at least. [/quote] You guys seem to be missing a very important point. I don't know HOW to build one myself. I have butchered an electric putting in pickups, but putting in pickups and this shit is ENTIRELY a different ballgame. It's not worth anything if it doesn't work. |
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Post by tonycamphd on May 8, 2014 19:07:40 GMT -6
Johnkenn you are right, there are people who absolutely cannot do that stuff, they have terrible hand eye coordination, and poor dexterity in their hands, they also suck at playing guitar, which YOU definitely do NOT! So stop making excuses, we saw that job you did on the diffusor(and we forgive you for that lol), we know YOU CAN DO IT!!!! Dont fight it anymore JK, just drink the kool aid and be happy bro 
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Post by Johnkenn on May 8, 2014 22:10:28 GMT -6
I would love to try to put together a DIY 47...but I certainly wouldn't want to buy it and screw it up...
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Post by dandeurloo on May 8, 2014 22:26:54 GMT -6
Microphones are not a good place to start DIY. One of Jeff's vp26 or vp312's or a Bo Hanson di. They are cheap and lots of support, plus they sound great. Get something simple done and have some success.
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Post by watchtower on May 8, 2014 23:25:04 GMT -6
I got into DiY because I knew that unless I hit the lottery, I would never be able to afford the mics I wanted (the classics). Since I'm just a young guy, my desire for these mics is somewhat unwarranted - I've never used any of the originals. I am definitely a "want to have the brand name if possible" type of guy, but when it comes to expensive items, I have to make exceptions. I also really like flexibility, and having options, and I found that DiY was pretty much the only way to have complete control of what I wanted. I was tired of modders not offering what I wanted, or making alterations/trade-offs/compromises that I didn't want. I decided the only way to get the "real deal" was to build DiY clones myself. A little research turned into A LOT of research, and that plus the challenge or learning how to solder and put it all together like a puzzle is fulfilling to me. I can easily see how that would not be something fun for someone else, and how it might seem like a time-sucker. I'm the type of guy who over-thinks, over-researches, and likes to learn.
A bonus is that I never sell gear, so I don't care at all about resale value. These mics are more for my own collector's spirit. I don't NEED ALL of the ones I currently have, or the ones I plan to build. I also find the fact that I build mics seems to be more impressive to local friends/clients than if I had famous brands that they don't recognize.
I guess I got into DiY to save money, but ultimately I enjoy the whole process - complete control/customization, money savings, the research, learning about electronics and soldering, the overall challenge, adding to my mic cabinet/collection, etc. I don't feel as though I'm sacrificing anything. Even if there were some magic quality in the vintage originals over the clones, I simply can't afford the vintage originals anyway, so it doesn't bother me. If they WERE within reach, maybe I would wonder more how the clones compared (not that I think they don't live up to the challenge), but as it stands now, I just know I have two amazing mics that I built. This gives me immense pride, and it feels so good to use those mics that I put so much time into.
While I began my DiY journey in the field of mics, I would agree that it's probably not the easiest starting point. Actually, my first DiY project was a reamp box 7 or so years ago that never wound up working right. Really it was just me ordering some knobs, a metal box and a transformer and asking my dad to solder some wires together haha
For whatever reason, I don't have all that much interest in DiY preamps, EQs, or compressors. I pretty much only care about mics.
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Post by wiz on May 8, 2014 23:25:51 GMT -6
build a set of VU meters....
JLM Audio does a kit
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