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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2014 23:54:44 GMT -6
I would love to try to put together a DIY 47...but I certainly wouldn't want to buy it and screw it up... John, I am near sure you don't want to build a 47 as a first time DIY experience. You might be better off to build maybe an awesome DI that can easily hold up against anything money could buy (the Bo Hansen DI) and afterwards maybe a kit from Jeff, then read a while at groupdiy about LDC building, and theeeen.....  Best regards, Martin |
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Post by tonycamphd on May 9, 2014 1:03:07 GMT -6
Here ya go Johnkenn , pcbgrinder.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=60&product_id=73 the bo hansen Di sounds really great! As in better than DI's 20 times the price, i have a bunch, and this is the first one i reach for, it kills on bass, and it's easy and fun as hell to build, i promise you'll get a feeling of accomplishment that is awesome when you're done. If you run into any problems, there is a ton of support(starting right here), and once you solve whatever? problem, the feeling of accomplishment is even GREATER. |
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Post by Johnkenn on May 9, 2014 10:59:55 GMT -6
Well obviously I wouldn't start with a mic - I was just making the point that I didn't want to spend money and screw it up.
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Post by ben on May 9, 2014 13:21:08 GMT -6
That's the free market. Companies aren't out to screw you anymore than they have to. Why would they alienate their lifeline and lose those customers? Trust me, companies have wrung out every bit of profit/performance they can out of how the world works. Because we've demanded so much for so little, we've shipped all of our jobs overseas and the product has suffered for it. Companies are out to make as much money as possible, for as little cost as possible. That's where the DIY'ers and boutique companies come in. They are willing to spend more, make less, but put out a product that will compete with the best gear available. I find it hard to believe that a mic such as a Neumann u87ai, for example, is selling for $3600. I've watched the price go up and up over the years, with no change in design or components. Before the recording revolution, before any newbie knew of the Neumann name, these mics were much less expensive. I think some of these companies are taking advantage of the hype by putting out products of lesser build quality, and charging more than necessary. Why? Because they can get it! Take the TLM49... Those mics can rarely be repaired. If there's something wrong, you usually need to change out the whole circuit board. That way, you have to go back to the company to buy the parts instead of repairing them in-house with off-the-shelf components. Another reason for the hype-hype, IMO, is a lack of experience on the part of the buyer. I've been there, and I know that I used to buy gear based on hype because 1) I deferred to the judgement of someone who knew more than I and 2) there was no place around me to hear these pieces of gear. A lot of times, it's "buy, then try" for those who don't know what they are really looking for. Unless you have an unlimited amount of money, this method can only take you so far. Boards like this, combined with research and sound clips, helps to weed out the hype and get to what really matters... the sound. |
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Post by svart on May 9, 2014 13:45:25 GMT -6
That's the free market. Companies aren't out to screw you anymore than they have to. Why would they alienate their lifeline and lose those customers? Trust me, companies have wrung out every bit of profit/performance they can out of how the world works. Because we've demanded so much for so little, we've shipped all of our jobs overseas and the product has suffered for it. Companies are out to make as much money as possible, for as little cost as possible. That's where the DIY'ers and boutique companies come in. They are willing to spend more, make less, but put out a product that will compete with the best gear available. I find it hard to believe that a mic such as a Neumann u87ai, for example, is selling for $3600. I've watched the price go up and up over the years, with no change in design or components. Before the recording revolution, before any newbie knew of the Neumann name, these mics were much less expensive. I think some of these companies are taking advantage of the hype by putting out products of lesser build quality, and charging more than necessary. Why? Because they can get it! Take the TLM49... Those mics can rarely be repaired. If there's something wrong, you usually need to change out the whole circuit board. That way, you have to go back to the company to buy the parts instead of repairing them in-house with off-the-shelf components. Another reason for the hype-hype, IMO, is a lack of experience on the part of the buyer. I've been there, and I know that I used to buy gear based on hype because 1) I deferred to the judgement of someone who knew more than I and 2) there was no place around me to hear these pieces of gear. A lot of times, it's "buy, then try" for those who don't know what they are really looking for. Unless you have an unlimited amount of money, this method can only take you so far. Boards like this, combined with research and sound clips, helps to weed out the hype and get to what really matters... the sound. I hear ya, but what you are saying is waaay over-generalized. All of the companies I've worked for want to make money, that's the nature of business. None of them wanted to take advantage of the customer. All of them spent the money needed to develop good products that the customers wanted and needed. There is always talk of the bottom and top lines but it's understood that sometimes you make more money, sometimes you make less, but as long as the income comes in and keeps you afloat, it's rarely considered to drop quality. I'm not saying there aren't folks out there who just take as much as possible from the customer, but those companies don't last because bad reviews travel fast. If neumann continues to sell the U87 for the price they do and people continue to buy it, then there is nothing to criticize. You know you'd do the same thing in their shoes in order to feed the families of the people that work for you. I just think DIY has scewed the viewpoint of products a bit. It starts with "wow, look at what I can make for cheap!" and eventually turns into "wow, why are these companies charging so much for something I can make for 1/2 price!!" What has happened is that you have fooled yourself into believing that companies can run on only the costs of the parts you need to make something, which is not true. Well, you don't have employees to pay, health and unemployment insurance to pay, business insurance, taxes on buildings/income/workers comp, teams of lawyers, spending money to buy tools, software, computers, licenses for technology, licenses for testing (FCC/CE, etc), electricity for extra test equipment, water for the persons who take 50 dumps a day, accountants, and overpriced business suites. If you added up your time, the electricity, the water, the heat, the tools, the computers, the parts+overhead, the room you work in, the overtime you'd have to pay an employee on the sunday afternoon you build your kit and add a little profit to keep the business going, you'd start to have a small idea of the true costs of doing business. It's probably 3-4x what you paid for your kit.. Which would equal the cost to buy the product new.. Running a full business costs a ton more than running one out of the house with family members or just assembling kits and selling them on Ebay. I guess what I'm getting at is that the costs of DIY you see online only include the parts costs and rarely count all the intangible costs, and that has fooled a lot of people into thinking that businesses are screwing people. |
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Post by tonycamphd on May 9, 2014 14:10:23 GMT -6
Companies are out to make as much money as possible, for as little cost as possible. That's where the DIY'ers and boutique companies come in. They are willing to spend more, make less, but put out a product that will compete with the best gear available. I find it hard to believe that a mic such as a Neumann u87ai, for example, is selling for $3600. I've watched the price go up and up over the years, with no change in design or components. Before the recording revolution, before any newbie knew of the Neumann name, these mics were much less expensive. I think some of these companies are taking advantage of the hype by putting out products of lesser build quality, and charging more than necessary. Why? Because they can get it! Take the TLM49... Those mics can rarely be repaired. If there's something wrong, you usually need to change out the whole circuit board. That way, you have to go back to the company to buy the parts instead of repairing them in-house with off-the-shelf components. Another reason for the hype-hype, IMO, is a lack of experience on the part of the buyer. I've been there, and I know that I used to buy gear based on hype because 1) I deferred to the judgement of someone who knew more than I and 2) there was no place around me to hear these pieces of gear. A lot of times, it's "buy, then try" for those who don't know what they are really looking for. Unless you have an unlimited amount of money, this method can only take you so far. Boards like this, combined with research and sound clips, helps to weed out the hype and get to what really matters... the sound. I hear ya, but what you are saying is waaay over-generalized. All of the companies I've worked for want to make money, that's the nature of business. None of them wanted to take advantage of the customer. All of them spent the money needed to develop good products that the customers wanted and needed. There is always talk of the bottom and top lines but it's understood that sometimes you make more money, sometimes you make less, but as long as the income comes in and keeps you afloat, it's rarely considered to drop quality. I'm not saying there aren't folks out there who just take as much as possible from the customer, but those companies don't last because bad reviews travel fast. If neumann continues to sell the U87 for the price they do and people continue to buy it, then there is nothing to criticize. You know you'd do the same thing in their shoes in order to feed the families of the people that work for you. I just think DIY has scewed the viewpoint of products a bit. It starts with "wow, look at what I can make for cheap!" and eventually turns into "wow, why are these companies charging so much for something I can make for 1/2 price!!" What has happened is that you have fooled yourself into believing that companies can run on only the costs of the parts you need to make something, which is not true. Well, you don't have employees to pay, health and unemployment insurance to pay, business insurance, taxes on buildings/income/workers comp, teams of lawyers, spending money to buy tools, software, computers, licenses for technology, licenses for testing (FCC/CE, etc), electricity for extra test equipment, water for the persons who take 50 dumps a day, accountants, and overpriced business suites. If you added up your time, the electricity, the water, the heat, the tools, the computers, the parts+overhead, the room you work in, the overtime you'd have to pay an employee on the sunday afternoon you build your kit and add a little profit to keep the business going, you'd start to have a small idea of the true costs of doing business. It's probably 3-4x what you paid for your kit.. Which would equal the cost to buy the product new.. Running a full business costs a ton more than running one out of the house with family members or just assembling kits and selling them on Ebay. I guess what I'm getting at is that the costs of DIY you see online only include the parts costs and rarely count all the intangible costs, and that has fooled a lot of people into thinking that businesses are screwing people. good points, but how do you explain companies like wunder, flea, nordic etc? They are garage type shops right? with very low overhead in comparison to the biggies, they are certainly profiting off the hype selling mics as high as $8K no? I mean i have a wood lathe in my shed, that could make repeatable wood bodies like the nordic mic, at a fraction of the cost of a cloned machined housing of original spec, and regardless of the voodoo, you(certainly) and i know a circuit is exactly that, and it's function performs in direct correlation to the quality of it's parts. voodoo shmoodoo the funny thing about the DIY nay sayers is, if more people got into Diy, it would force the retailer prices to come way down for the naysayers themselves, another welcome side effect would be a greater user base understanding of the tech side, which in turn would de mystify and quell the voodoo hype BS that is rampant when it comes to this stuff. of course as always, JMO |
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Post by ben on May 9, 2014 14:34:36 GMT -6
If neumann continues to sell the U87 for the price they do and people continue to buy it, then there is nothing to criticize. You know you'd do the same thing in their shoes in order to feed the families of the people that work for you. Yes, I would! lol. If you added up your time, the electricity, the water, the heat, the tools, the computers, the parts+overhead, the room you work in, the overtime you'd have to pay an employee on the sunday afternoon you build your kit and add a little profit to keep the business going, you'd start to have a small idea of the true costs of doing business. It's probably 3-4x what you paid for your kit.. Which would equal the cost to buy the product new.. I agree. And don't forget, when your DIY kit breaks down, there's no warranty! There's always going to be a market for brand name gear, but maybe the growing DIY market will keep some of the prices in check. |
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Post by svart on May 9, 2014 14:38:47 GMT -6
good points, but how do you explain companies like wunder, flea, nordic etc? They are garage type shops right? with very low overhead in comparison to the biggies, they are certainly profiting off the hype selling mics as high as $8K no? I mean i have a wood lathe in my shed, that could make repeatable wood bodies like the nordic mic, at a fraction of the cost of a cloned machined housing of original spec, and regardless of the voodoo, you(certainly) and i know a circuit is exactly that, and it's function performs in direct correlation to the quality of it's parts. voodoo shmoodoo the funny thing about the DIY nay sayers is, if more people got into Diy, it would force the retailer prices to come way down for the naysayers themselves, another welcome side effect would be a greater user base understanding of the tech side, which in turn would de mystify and quell the voodoo hype BS that is rampant when it comes to this stuff. of course as always, JMO Those guys make hundreds, to at most a couple thousand mics a year across all their lines.. Neumann and Sennheiser make tens to hundreds of thousands if not millions of mics across all their lines, and therefor probably employ many hundred employees around the world.. There and many orders of magnitude of difference here. If Wunder/Flea/Etc made hundreds of thousands of mics, they'd need factories full of non-free machines and many more non-free employees rather than a bench in a garage and a few friends they've hired to help out. Then again, they can sell for whatever they like because they are small too. The mindset out there is that the "little guy" has something more personal to offer and people will pay for that too. If people buy something for 8K$ from them, then I'm glad for them. Now, is it worth 8k? who knows! I certainly can't afford that to give it a try. I agree that there is a *little* voodoo involved, but I don't see any manufacturers really pushing the envelope in the smoke-and-mirrors department. Most just suggest that something will be better than something before it and the rest is sitting back and allowing folk's imaginations of being the next CLA take off. If anything, I've found my DIY allowed me more time to understand exactly how much work is involved in full product development. Since then I've taken that knowledge and applied to my day job. My day job involves designing from the ground up, not simply laying out clones of products already done, so I need a lot more supporting equipment than a person putting together a kit. I have a bench in a lab and my bench has 250K$ worth of test/measurement gear and my work computer has another 50K$ worth of design/simulation software on it. |
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Post by Johnkenn on May 9, 2014 18:13:37 GMT -6
I hear ya, but what you are saying is waaay over-generalized. All of the companies I've worked for want to make money, that's the nature of business. None of them wanted to take advantage of the customer. All of them spent the money needed to develop good products that the customers wanted and needed. There is always talk of the bottom and top lines but it's understood that sometimes you make more money, sometimes you make less, but as long as the income comes in and keeps you afloat, it's rarely considered to drop quality. I'm not saying there aren't folks out there who just take as much as possible from the customer, but those companies don't last because bad reviews travel fast. If neumann continues to sell the U87 for the price they do and people continue to buy it, then there is nothing to criticize. You know you'd do the same thing in their shoes in order to feed the families of the people that work for you. I just think DIY has scewed the viewpoint of products a bit. It starts with "wow, look at what I can make for cheap!" and eventually turns into "wow, why are these companies charging so much for something I can make for 1/2 price!!" What has happened is that you have fooled yourself into believing that companies can run on only the costs of the parts you need to make something, which is not true. Well, you don't have employees to pay, health and unemployment insurance to pay, business insurance, taxes on buildings/income/workers comp, teams of lawyers, spending money to buy tools, software, computers, licenses for technology, licenses for testing (FCC/CE, etc), electricity for extra test equipment, water for the persons who take 50 dumps a day, accountants, and overpriced business suites. If you added up your time, the electricity, the water, the heat, the tools, the computers, the parts+overhead, the room you work in, the overtime you'd have to pay an employee on the sunday afternoon you build your kit and add a little profit to keep the business going, you'd start to have a small idea of the true costs of doing business. It's probably 3-4x what you paid for your kit.. Which would equal the cost to buy the product new.. Running a full business costs a ton more than running one out of the house with family members or just assembling kits and selling them on Ebay. I guess what I'm getting at is that the costs of DIY you see online only include the parts costs and rarely count all the intangible costs, and that has fooled a lot of people into thinking that businesses are screwing people. good points, but how do you explain companies like wunder, flea, nordic etc? They are garage type shops right? with very low overhead in comparison to the biggies, they are certainly profiting off the hype selling mics as high as $8K no? I mean i have a wood lathe in my shed, that could make repeatable wood bodies like the nordic mic, at a fraction of the cost of a cloned machined housing of original spec, and regardless of the voodoo, you(certainly) and i know a circuit is exactly that, and it's function performs in direct correlation to the quality of it's parts. voodoo shmoodoo the funny thing about the DIY nay sayers is, if more people got into Diy, it would force the retailer prices to come way down for the naysayers themselves, another welcome side effect would be a greater user base understanding of the tech side, which in turn would de mystify and quell the voodoo hype BS that is rampant when it comes to this stuff. of course as always, JMO Hey Tony - just wanted to mention this as I've seen you say this a number of times...the Nordic 47v or whatever is a metal body and looks just like a 47. I'm not saying that changes your point at all, just wanted to clear that up. And btw - I have zero idea as to whether they're decent mics or not. |
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Post by Johnkenn on May 9, 2014 18:20:11 GMT -6
Yeah - it's just simple supply and demand. Capitalism. I have no problem with it. People are obviously buying the product and in the end, if it's not worth the price that's paid, then the market will adjust it. And maybe it's just how you look at it...A vintage 251 can cost upwards of $18k. Looking at it that way, an $8000 Tele USA version is a bargain. It's only worth it if it's worth it to you.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2014 18:56:20 GMT -6
Well,
there have been some changes of paradigms in the gear DIY community from the times of RO "Techtalk"/beginning of GroupDIY until now, that might lead to wrong conclusions about the price of DIYing stuff.
Back then, people tried to re-engineer and -built stuff, that was actually unobtanium.
They did not really want to interfere with the business of the big guys. Everybody tried to learn about the good old stuff, how it was made, research, collecting old schematics, discussing it, trying to understand how stuff works. Cloning first...
Then there were ideas of improvement, first original designs, shared freely to the community. Mostly under the strict "non-commercial use only" common sense. No kits. People made some PCBs for themselves, shared them "under the hood" maybe, sourced all the parts stuff themselves, which was a main PITA sometimes.
Then there was a major hype on all the "good old analog" stuff, some guys made a good deal selling the backyard junk of the broadcast stations, which made the major companies consider making re-issues, boutique builders grew up everywhere.
The business and the DIY community took influence on each other.
Cheap asian companies improved their low quality products after mods from the DIYers, pro builders followed the DIY community boards, a DIY market started to rise to make building easier, starting with groupbuys of parts developing to businesses.
Everybody seemed to profit from the freedom of information and discussion.
Nowadays you can build a high quality design from a kit with step-by-step manuals with near zero knowledge of electronics.
But, this was not, what DIY was all about in the first place.
Don't get me wrong, i really appreciate the fact, that more musicians and producers/engineers can get more easily into building their own gear, picking up knowledge about their daily tools, demystifying the black boxes.
But - they are easily misleaded, when it comes to the total cost of a DIY build.
Time and knowledge is mostly underestimated.
Your kit might be working out goood right out of the box. If you take your time and do alot reading along the process of building. But, there are many things you can mess up, if you don't.
It is not rocket science. But it is electronics, a special area of electronics with it's own rules (audio).
The deeper you dive into it, the more respect you get for the developers of original designs.
The good thing - if you make errors, you learn from it. You can fix it. Learn more.
The knowledge about gear you get from DIYing is a major benefit you will never have by just buying a factory new brand product.
If you consider this at least as a secondary goal of your DIY activities, DIY undoubtly pays off, really. Even if your DIY projects take much longer, than you expected, even if you mess up things, have to debug, blow up parts, have to fix things and study circuits and PCBs over and over...learning is making errors.
If you just want to save some bucks, you may be disappointed in the end....
Just my personal point of view....
Best regards,
Martin
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2014 20:10:55 GMT -6
(A small anecdote comes to my mind...about HOW FRIENDLY very respected pro builders sometimes reacted to the DIY communties' activities...:
Mr. George Massenburg one day registered at GroupDIY, and made a - very polite - post to please remove schematics of his very own original designs of in-production opamps. Which, of course, was done immediately...!)
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Post by kidvybes on May 26, 2014 15:23:38 GMT -6
...just a heads-up on some nice pre-built DIY tube mics being offered for sale by one of the guys who clones the original PCBs and offers the kits...these are all his own prototypes, some of which are documented on the website's build threads...some have re-skinned Neumann capsules, others have the Chinese C12/K47 capsules (great candidates for a Sensay upgrade?)...take a look: groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=56224.0Attachment Deleted |
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Post by kidvybes on May 28, 2014 17:41:31 GMT -6
...hmmm...I bit!...bought the M269c prototype...I will report back once I have it and record some vocal tracks...I already purchased his M49b prototype a while back and I'm more than pleased with it on female vocals...
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Post by dandeurloo on May 28, 2014 22:10:12 GMT -6
I might sell my m269 as well? I love it but I like things in pairs and I only have the one.
Where did he get the wood box for the mics do you know?
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Post by quintosardo on May 30, 2014 3:40:23 GMT -6
I think that very often DIY doesn't make it really cheap, if you count your efforts in the bill. It is great for some products, though, mainly where marketing is a great slice of the final price.
I don't think DIY can affect companies. People don't buy things because they are not available DIY. Some guys can really do every single thing themselves (tracking, mixing, mastering, public relations, administration, repairs, maintenance, etc etc etc) but they cannot do everything.
DIY is really great and forces you to really understand things. Building a mic, for example, is a great and useful experience. You have to focus on mechanics, resonances, amplification, filtering, vibrations, materials, it is also useful when you go back to tracking, because you can think of the mics you are going to use from a different perspective.
My experience with a ribbon mic was a nightmare, but real fun.
Now I'm afraid I'm looking into building condenser capsules... :/
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Post by kcatthedog on May 30, 2014 4:32:04 GMT -6
Hmm interesting read; I think diy is like anything, you have to do your homework and especially for a newbie, like me, be realistic about your build capacity and knowledge and then go with the known quantities
for example, the matador/chunger mike builds, they call it do it yourself but it is more like you are buying a completely QC'd model kit that just needs assembly, they did all the reverse engineering (right) and parts selection etc. and created a thread for support, unless you can't read, see and or solder; you can't get it wrong and you end up with a first class mike that also looks great.
There is also the intangible of discovering a new interest and maybe something that really engages you or possibly disengages you: I loved my diy c12 build experience, love to do more, my buddy hated his experience with another diy project, never do again; different strokes, but he still has a great sounding inexpensive mike that he uses all the time!
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Post by kidvybes on May 30, 2014 8:11:55 GMT -6
Where did he get the wood box for the mics do you know? Hi Dan...the wood box for the 47 came with the Alctron kit, but I have no idea where he sourced the 2 boxes he used for the 67 and 269...they don't look like the ones I've seen on eBay...I'll ask him... *UPDATE Dany replied with info...the boxes he paired with the 67 and 269 builds were sourced thru Oliver at AMI: www.tab-funkenwerk.com/id121.htmlAttachments:
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Post by tonycamphd on May 30, 2014 8:36:30 GMT -6
This will come as a shock, but I think DIY RULES! 8)
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Post by jimwilliams on May 30, 2014 10:29:26 GMT -6
"Pro audio developers" have mostly moved on to other industries. There is little demand for pro audio developers when there is no supporting recording industry. DIY is a tiny fraction of that and as no effect.
Having some engineering chops does make for lower cost gear, whatever that's worth. A vibrant recording/music industry would provide many more opprotunities and options, but that is gone.
Decades ago I had crappy recording gear and amazing artists to record.
Now I have amazing recording gear and crappy artists to record.
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Post by tonycamphd on May 30, 2014 10:57:02 GMT -6
lol, i yaay DIY, then the one guy i go to for all things over my head that i need to have kill, chimes in  Seriously Fella's, if you want hi-fi brilliant sound, Jim Williams has an unbelievable combo of ears/electronics chops that is very rare. |
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Post by quintosardo on May 30, 2014 11:14:29 GMT -6
"Pro audio developers" have mostly moved on to other industries. There is little demand for pro audio developers when there is no supporting recording industry. DIY is a tiny fraction of that and as no effect. Having some engineering chops does make for lower cost gear, whatever that's worth. A vibrant recording/music industry would provide many more opprotunities and options, but that is gone. Decades ago I had crappy recording gear and amazing artists to record. Now I have amazing recording gear and crappy artists to record. This is one thing which makes me wonder what's happening. Music is art, after all, doesn't have to be linked to money. Why I hear a lot of people saying music level is going down, not only recording industry? Did good musician exist because there was money there??? |
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Post by tonycamphd on May 30, 2014 11:29:32 GMT -6
"Pro audio developers" have mostly moved on to other industries. There is little demand for pro audio developers when there is no supporting recording industry. DIY is a tiny fraction of that and as no effect. Having some engineering chops does make for lower cost gear, whatever that's worth. A vibrant recording/music industry would provide many more opprotunities and options, but that is gone. Decades ago I had crappy recording gear and amazing artists to record. Now I have amazing recording gear and crappy artists to record. This is one thing which makes me wonder what's happening. Music is art, after all, doesn't have to be linked to money. Why I hear a lot of people saying music level is going down, not only recording industry? Did good musician exist because there was money there??? No, good musicians existed because there wasn't money there, they did it for the love of it, they were cultured, they studied what came before them, then the 50's/60's hit, the musicians started to focus on only what was in front of them, the players of the 70's emulated the 60's, the 80's emulated the 70's, the 90's emulated the 80's the 2000's emulated the 90's, now the 2010's are emulating the 2000's, this is called Devolution IMO, popular music is not art anymore, it's focus group cookie cutter BS, there are a few points of light, but the really talented people are obscured by the Kardashianites, garbage in/garbage out. it's really quite sad. |
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Post by kidvybes on Aug 7, 2014 15:55:51 GMT -6
...recently returned from a relaxing couple of days at the "Powder-Coat Spa"...
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Post by sinasoid on Aug 7, 2014 16:40:59 GMT -6
...recently returned from a relaxing couple of days at the "Powder-Coat Spa"... Beautiful! |
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