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Post by timcampbell on Jan 2, 2021 0:31:24 GMT -6
I've been telling people at gearslutz about this thread, haha. It's an RGO exclusive so I'm trying to spread the word. I wonder if we'll be overun?
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Post by chessparov on Jan 2, 2021 2:47:24 GMT -6
I wonder if Tommy James, still has his own personal 251? The one he recorded "Crimson & Clover" and "Crystal Blue Persuasion" on. Fantastic vocals on those songs... Chris
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Post by ChaseUTB on Jan 2, 2021 7:36:40 GMT -6
Is this thread being cleaned up or posts deleted? If so can a little context be added please cuz I’m a little confused. Everyone seems to be cordial & genuinely excited about this mic imo. Is Tim making a 251 mic in the same price category as Heiserman? ( know he makes a wonderful ck12 capsule idk about mics ) If Dolly is the goal sound why are you wanting more scooped sound? What does it mean to reject a mic? How do you reject 7 out of 8 251’s? Why is the sound varying so much w/ this mic? So many questions so many rejects ( the mics not you guys )
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Post by timcampbell on Jan 2, 2021 8:38:03 GMT -6
Is this thread being cleaned up or posts deleted? If so can a little context be added please cuz I’m a little confused. Everyone seems to be cordial & genuinely excited about this mic imo. Is Tim making a 251 mic in the same price category as Heiserman? ( know he makes a wonderful ck12 capsule idk about mics ) If Dolly is the goal sound why are you wanting more scooped sound? What does it mean to reject a mic? How do you reject 7 out of 8 251’s? Why is the sound varying so much w/ this mic? So many questions so many rejects ( the mics not you guys ) The ELA M250/251 mic is very complicated. The capsule is complicated and unique. Because of it's construction and changes to it AKG made over time the sound of the capsule varies greatly. Secondly, no one who is using what they consider an inferior sounding 251 has tried swapping out the tube or checking to see if all it's old, tired capacitors are still working or even swapped headbaskets to see if it's the capsule. What is considered to be a great sounding 251, though a matter of opinion , is reached by general concensus. You must pick a benchmark in order to build a great mic. There are even 2 different tubes employed in original 251's, the 6072 E model and the AC701 european model. These 2 versions do not sound alike. It is hard these days to even find 2 6072 tubes that sound alike, even GE 5 stars. Many manufacturers like Bock and Upton have given up and use a different model tube. I wonder what the Heiserman is using.
No I am not building a 251 clone. I agree that me being seen as a direct competitor to any mic manufacturers is a bit of a stretch but that's not up to me.
The thread was cleaned up a to keep the forum to the high standards we all like and come here for as opposed to what one finds on GS. I personally agree with removing them and have no problem with this.
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Post by Ward on Jan 2, 2021 9:44:19 GMT -6
Is this thread being cleaned up or posts deleted? Yes. And we do have to maintain a high standard, which is why all the important people read the posts on this forum . . . and we don't need to invite the argumentative asinine types over. Please. I'm begging you, don't invite them over. Only Dave wave Eric tskguy can really answer this definitely . . . but just like TC said, they varied greatly and the goal (as put to me) is to make the BEST possible clone of the BEST possible 251 ever made. The general consensus is that if Dolly isn't the best 251 ever made, then by golly, it's certainly one of the best ones that ever magically happened! Is it perhaps a little scooped sounding? All 251s are. Their mama was a C12. Shapely girl who thin in the middle and fit like a fiddle. I've never heard anyone ask for a more scooped 251. Perhaps a tiny bit less scooped so the big fat mids can breathe! But man oh man, the work that wave has put into this and the attention to tonality is something else. I'm excited!
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 2, 2021 10:06:58 GMT -6
I’ve always thought Jeff’s 251 was a little rolled off - especially for a 251...but I like it that way. Regardless of the differences in frequency response, IMO real 251’s seem to have this “reedy” quality...as in reed instruments like saxes or oboes or bassoons. They capture that buzziness. That’s the only way I can describe it.
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Post by boostudio on Jan 2, 2021 10:31:32 GMT -6
I second this question — what tube is used in this glorious-looking mic? (Not that it will matter to me (or my wallet) next month).
“I wonder what the Heiserman is using.”
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 2, 2021 10:38:13 GMT -6
Is this thread being cleaned up or posts deleted? If so can a little context be added please cuz I’m a little confused. Everyone seems to be cordial & genuinely excited about this mic imo. Is Tim making a 251 mic in the same price category as Heiserman? ( know he makes a wonderful ck12 capsule idk about mics ) If Dolly is the goal sound why are you wanting more scooped sound? What does it mean to reject a mic? How do you reject 7 out of 8 251’s? Why is the sound varying so much w/ this mic? So many questions so many rejects ( the mics not you guys ) No I am not building a 251 clone. I agree that me being seen as a direct competitor to any mic manufacturers is a bit of a stretch but that's not up to me. But it’s my understanding you are supplying several other manufacturers - that you’ve mentioned here - ck12s...So - that seems like a conflict of interest to me. I’m certainly not trying to assign your intentions, but I would think it was bad form if Brian Sowter came into a Neve thread to discuss Carnhill transformers.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 2, 2021 10:40:16 GMT -6
Not sure what “given up” meant (see, that’s the conflict I’m talking about) but the Upton uses a 6072.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 2, 2021 10:41:17 GMT -6
I second this question — what tube is used in this glorious-looking mic? (Not that it will matter to me (or my wallet) next month). “I wonder what the Heiserman is using.” I don’t know why it wouldn’t be a 6072.
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Post by tskguy on Jan 2, 2021 10:41:28 GMT -6
Hey all,
The tube is still up in the air... we have a a bunch to try. That being said it will most likely be a modern tube not an NOS. The old ones are just to all over the place and hard to get in any real numbers. I’m sure we would be open to installing a preference before we shipped. And yes our production model will be the “export version” so it will be a 6072 tube....
Eric
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Post by timcampbell on Jan 2, 2021 11:35:22 GMT -6
No I am not building a 251 clone. I agree that me being seen as a direct competitor to any mic manufacturers is a bit of a stretch but that's not up to me. But it’s my understanding you are supplying several other manufacturers - that you’ve mentioned here - ck12s...So - that seems like a conflict of interest to me. I’m certainly not trying to assign your intentions, but I would think it was bad form if Brian Sowter came into a Neve thread to discuss Carnhill transformers. Well John I'm not sure I understand the analogy. I have not mentioned anything about Eric's capsules and I have not offered even one word of critique. If I had only participated in this thread to criticize I would agree with you. I have edited the only post where I mentioned brands I am associated with in order to remove any conflict.
I just included this to answer ChaseUTB's question.
My intial posts that were removed actually were in praise of the level of quality of this bodywork.
But I'd rather not keep clarifying this just because one member doesn't like my participation.
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Post by chessparov on Jan 2, 2021 13:17:37 GMT -6
Just curious... Whats the history of "Dolly" the 251? I Know on Dolly Parton's RCA early recordings/hits, they kept an EV RE15 "special", for her to sing into. Or did it have to do with Dolly Madison's Cup Cakes? Chris
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Post by johneppstein on Jan 2, 2021 14:38:49 GMT -6
It's going to be available in clear? Interesting.... Hahahaha. No John that's the internals. There is a clear plastic cover under the body. Oh,DARN!
Clear would be pretty cool, but probably not great for shielding.....
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Post by Guitar on Jan 2, 2021 14:52:27 GMT -6
I'm really curious which modern tube will be chosen. I know Signal Arts is on file with a specific tube, etc. It's like free "pro tips" for the little people that own tube mics.
The Electro Harmonix 6072A is pretty decent but I doubt that will be the pick. It doesn't really remind of a JAN GE or something like that. I use the JAN GE in mine because it's a little fuller in the midrange, than the sort of clean clear EH tube.
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Post by timcampbell on Jan 2, 2021 15:01:22 GMT -6
John you could use conductive plastic but it wouldn't work well hehe.
I have tried all the variants and I still think nothing beats a good sounding GE5 star 6072 if you can still find one. I have heard some EH that sound good but I worry about their longevity. The JJ's sound like 12ax7's to my ear. RCA 6072's don't even sound like the same tube and many JAN's are boring.
I am really interested to see if there is really another tube out there that will work and still sound like an original.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,937
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Post by ericn on Jan 2, 2021 15:06:24 GMT -6
Is this thread being cleaned up or posts deleted? If so can a little context be added please cuz I’m a little confused. Everyone seems to be cordial & genuinely excited about this mic imo. Is Tim making a 251 mic in the same price category as Heiserman? ( know he makes a wonderful ck12 capsule idk about mics ) If Dolly is the goal sound why are you wanting more scooped sound? What does it mean to reject a mic? How do you reject 7 out of 8 251’s? Why is the sound varying so much w/ this mic? So many questions so many rejects ( the mics not you guys ) The ELA M250/251 mic is very complicated. The capsule is complicated and unique. Because of it's construction and changes to it AKG made over time the sound of the capsule varies greatly. Secondly, no one who is using what they consider an inferior sounding 251 has tried swapping out the tube or checking to see if all it's old, tired capacitors are still working or even swapped headbaskets to see if it's the capsule. What is considered to be a great sounding 251, though a matter of opinion , is reached by general concensus. You must pick a benchmark in order to build a great mic. There are even 2 different tubes employed in original 251's, the 6072 E model and the AC701 european model. These 2 versions do not sound alike. It is hard these days to even find 2 6072 tubes that sound alike, even GE 5 stars. Many manufacturers like Bock and Upton have given up and use a different model tube. I wonder what the Heiserman is using.
No I am not building a 251 clone. I agree that me being seen as a direct competitor to any mic manufacturers is a bit of a stretch but that's not up to me.
The thread was cleaned up a to keep the forum to the high standards we all like and come here for as opposed to what one finds on GS. I personally agree with removing them and have no problem with this.
Tim, you know I respect your knowledge of AKG mics, but I do see John’s point while your not building a 251 you do have commercial relationships as a supplier of capsules to others who are building 251s. While what I have read from you on this thread has been positive, I don’t think anybody would deny that a conflict exists. Somebody has to draw the line somewhere, this is where John chooses to draw it.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 2, 2021 15:19:32 GMT -6
I much preferred the Mullard 12AT7
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Post by jsteiger on Jan 2, 2021 18:34:50 GMT -6
Just curious... Whats the history of "Dolly" the 251? I Know on Dolly Parton's RCA early recordings/hits, they kept an EV RE15 "special", for her to sing into. I bought the Dolly 251 from Dave Cobb about 8 years ago. Dave got it from the Porter Wagoner estate sale sometime before that. I guess it use to belong to Porter and Dolly back in the day.
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Post by timcampbell on Jan 2, 2021 18:45:27 GMT -6
jsteiger have you heard your 251 with Blackbird's favorite? How would you describe the difference? I would love a chance to get to hear it if there is a summer NAMM this year.
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Post by chessparov on Jan 2, 2021 18:50:05 GMT -6
Just curious... Whats the history of "Dolly" the 251? I Know on Dolly Parton's RCA early recordings/hits, they kept an EV RE15 "special", for her to sing into. I bought the Dolly 251 from Dave Cobb about 8 years ago. Dave got it from the Porter Wagoner estate sale sometime before that. I guess it use to belong to Porter and Dolly back in the day. So cool!! Thanks Jeff, Chris
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 2, 2021 19:18:50 GMT -6
jsteiger have you heard your 251 with Blackbird's favorite? How would you describe the difference? I would love a chance to get to hear it if there is a summer NAMM this year. There’s a shootout with the two here on this site.
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Post by timcampbell on Jan 2, 2021 19:47:16 GMT -6
Thanks John. I don't know how I missed that.
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Post by Ward on Jan 2, 2021 19:48:47 GMT -6
jsteiger have you heard your 251 with Blackbird's favorite? How would you describe the difference? I would love a chance to get to hear it if there is a summer NAMM this year. There’s a shootout with the two here on this site. Preach! The BB favorite is my second Favorite.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 2, 2021 19:58:10 GMT -6
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