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Post by Guitar on Jan 16, 2021 15:02:12 GMT -6
Wow, thanks for the masterclass in these microphones, much appreciated! My mic has a 200 Meg resistor in the grid position, I might have to listen to a 1G. I might also have to try to get something going with a larger transformer. Mine has a small-ish Cinemag, the CM-13114. I know he's changed things as time has gone on. The one the build for me had a 1G resistor, but he used a T14/1. The last one I saw was a larger transformer than a T14/1, which is tiny. Like thumbnail sized. Thanks, that's the theme of this thread I guess, microphone details and how they often change with even small passes of time. Whenever the time is right I'll attempt another big 251 build, maybe with a BeezNeez body or something. I'll use a bunch of different parts to try to concoct something different than the first one. There are a lot of really compelling capsules being built right now so that's a tantalizing question.
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Post by Ward on Jan 17, 2021 8:04:31 GMT -6
There are a lot of really compelling capsules being built right now so that's a tantalizing question. My understanding is the CK12 type capsules are difficult and expensive to both build and buy.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jan 17, 2021 8:36:29 GMT -6
Wow, thanks for the masterclass in these microphones, much appreciated! My mic has a 200 Meg resistor in the grid position, I might have to listen to a 1G. I might also have to try to get something going with a larger transformer. Mine has a small-ish Cinemag, the CM-13114. My Replica Microphones U87 (B from the shootout) has a small Cinemag CM-13113. Little baby thing.
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Post by Ward on Jan 17, 2021 9:06:49 GMT -6
My Replica Microphones U87 (B from the shootout) has a small Cinemag CM-13113. Little baby thing. But what about your forthcoming Heiserman ELA H251? Doesn't that have a Hauƒe 14/1 ?
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Post by Guitar on Jan 17, 2021 9:16:02 GMT -6
There are a lot of really compelling capsules being built right now so that's a tantalizing question. My understanding is the CK12 type capsules are difficult and expensive to both build and buy. They seem to average around $400 from what I can tell, for the vintage accurate ones. Some of the simplified ones are maybe $300, and there are some inexpensive import 'inspired' ones even less than that. It also depends on exchange rates, since a lot of these ship overseas. At one point the BeezNeez was a good deal and I was hot on it for a minute, but didn't pull the trigger.
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Post by roundbadge on Jan 18, 2021 21:34:19 GMT -6
New to this site. Got a link to this thread, and had to chime in because I am such a 251 nerd. I've spent a bunch of years rebuilding and tweaking vintage and repro versions, and testing an analyzing dozens of vintage 251's and C12's. This is great news. I've gotten the chance meet Eric and talk to him about mics, and his attention to the things that in my experience have turned out to be the important parts of a character of a mic have me excited to hear what he's come up with. I am also happy to see that he's recreated the internal perspex structure of these mics, because I believe that they are part of the sound of a 251. I have a 251 that I have considered to be the gold standard of where I like these things to sit, tonally. A number of people have agreed with me, and sent me various 251's they were considering buying to compare. As with most mics, 90% of the difference between one mic of the same variety and the next is the capsule. And in mics such as 251's, C12's and 47's, where a simple plate loaded circuit is used, with a minimum or no filtration employed, the capsule is generally the first thing you notice as why two may not sound alike. When I acquired a vintage 250, Tim worked with me on tuning that mic's CK12 so that I had a matched pair of ELAM's. His understanding of the CK12 is truly remarkable. It might be the most complicated capsule that is in common existence. So many variables that are required to be aligned properly in order to achieve proper tonal balance. Not to mention, AKG sputtered their mylar in a completely different manner than everybody else, and even that affects the movement of the mylar in a way that makes the sound of these capsules unique. Oliver had hipped me to this maybe years ago, by showing me microscopic images of the different gold layers and how the movement is affected. I differ from Tim's experience in one area: I have a large pile of NOS white paint, 5 star GE 6072's. I find their tone to be extremely uniform. It's been more about noise floor when I choose one over another. I have found other makes of 12AY7's to get outside the tonal ballpark, particularly new ones. They lack in either top end, low end or both. I'm doubtful that anybody can execute a 6072 that replicates the tone of the GE. Hearing that bottom octave missing on the new EF86's that Neumann is using, and I'm sure they tried their hardest to find the best tube available, makes me even more skeptical. Other tubes are available, and I know that Tele has used the 12AT7, but the bass response of those makes the mic no longer sound like a 251. But as Eric well knows, the relationship between the tube and transformer has everything to do with the frequency balance. If he finds as suitable tube, I suspect something other than a T14/1 will have to be employed, without modification. But for me, even with all the mics I have in my collection, I always consider my ELAM's to be the crown jewel. It's presence peak is problematic on some instruments and voices, but it gives a richness and intimacy that nothing else does, and makes my job as an engineer so much easier, when used on the correct sources. OH, piano, airy voices, acoustic guitar ... nothing beats it. I can't wait to hear these. shoot out at your place JJ !! I'll bring an Upton
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Post by chessparov on Jan 19, 2021 0:17:12 GMT -6
Don't worry guys, I'll bring the Warm WA-251!! Chris
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Post by vintagetubelug on Jan 22, 2021 12:00:32 GMT -6
This thread is what brought me to RGO thanks to roundbadge. I am in the market for a pair of mics for OH duties and the H 251s might be the ticket. I have a first run of the H47 fet which I love and use on kick out. On another note I recently sent in some brass capsule 414 eb's to Dave Wheeler to be re-skinned and didn't realize how involved he was in building the mics with Heiserman. Thanks for having me, lots of good info and people here. Mario
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Post by ChaseUTB on Jan 23, 2021 16:35:37 GMT -6
This thread is what brought me to RGO thanks to roundbadge. I am in the market for a pair of mics for OH duties and the H 251s might be the ticket. I have a first run of the H47 fet which I love and use on kick out. On another note I recently sent in some brass capsule 414 eb's to Dave Wheeler to be re-skinned and didn't realize how involved he was in building the mics with Heiserman. Thanks for having me, lots of good info and people here. Mario Welcome to RGO! Glad you ventured over here 251’s for OH’s, wow that has to be sublime!
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Post by Ward on Jan 24, 2021 7:16:57 GMT -6
This thread is what brought me to RGO thanks to roundbadge. I am in the market for a pair of mics for OH duties and the H 251s might be the ticket. I have a first run of the H47 fet which I love and use on kick out. On another note I recently sent in some brass capsule 414 eb's to Dave Wheeler to be re-skinned and didn't realize how involved he was in building the mics with Heiserman. Thanks for having me, lots of good info and people here. Mario Nice entry! And thanks for bringing the thread back on topic. I'm totally dying to get my next Heiserman microphones also, and have so much confidence in wave. Get in the queue for the 251!! The list is growing. send a Pm to mdmitch2 and that will get your spot in there. It is going to be ONE HELL OF A MIC!
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Post by jeremygillespie on Jan 24, 2021 10:41:13 GMT -6
So - I’ve been lucky enough to work in a studio for years and years with 2 fantastic examples of original c12’s.
And I’ll be honest - they were never my first pick for anything.
Can anybody hip me to the main differences between a c12 and the 251? My understanding is they are pretty similar, but I’ve never experienced a 251 in the wild (I have used a Bock 251 which I thought was a fantastic mic, but I couldn’t say if that was in the same realm as a real example)
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Post by chessparov on Jan 24, 2021 11:07:18 GMT -6
With Tim and Eric on board, it helps to make this a "Think Tank" Thread! Can't say 251 without saying C12. Or SM7. Chris
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Post by Guitar on Jan 24, 2021 12:02:13 GMT -6
So - I’ve been lucky enough to work in a studio for years and years with 2 fantastic examples of original c12’s. And I’ll be honest - they were never my first pick for anything. Can anybody hip me to the main differences between a c12 and the 251? My understanding is they are pretty similar, but I’ve never experienced a 251 in the wild (I have used a Bock 251 which I thought was a fantastic mic, but I couldn’t say if that was in the same realm as a real example) I can give some small technical answers. The C12 is biased with a voltage from the power supply, whereas the 251 is self-biased or cathode biased. The C12 has a capacitor between the capsule and the tube grid. The 251 gives a direct connection there. The C12 is capable of 9 polar patterns, the 251 three. Capsules have some differences that Tim Campbell was mentioning earlier in the thread. 251 has a larger body and headbasked, with a second layer of mesh I believe. C12 single layer grill. Smaller body diameter. 251 has a slightly reduced air band due to 100 pF roll off capacitor after the tube plate output. They both seem to use the 6072A tube and the schematics are "very similar." Capacitor types and transformer types could differ. C12 was first, 251 was "adapted" when AKG was contracted by Telefunken to "replace" the U47 in their catalog. I can't speak about sound differences with "real" ones, only the ones I've built myself ("DIY clones"). There are some subtle differences with all these small factors playing together. If you spend hours hearing demo recordings you can hear some of these differences. Even better with two mics side by side. I hope that's accurate enough. I'm sure some of the experts will chime in.
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Post by boostudio on Feb 11, 2021 21:22:45 GMT -6
Hey Eric — any timing on pre-orders? Best, Rich
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Post by Ward on Feb 12, 2021 15:58:51 GMT -6
Hey Eric — any timing on pre-orders? Best, Rich His handle here is tskguy So yeah . . . hey tskguy!! from Heiserman
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Post by guitfiddler on Feb 13, 2021 14:32:10 GMT -6
A 251 from Heiserman gets me excited
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Post by mdmitch2 on Feb 14, 2021 20:40:52 GMT -6
Hey Eric — any timing on pre-orders? Best, Rich We’re still a little ways off from pre-orders.... we want to make sure we’ve nailed down the delivery date first, and we’re not quite there yet. We’ll post an update here as soon as possible.
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Post by sparkey on Apr 9, 2021 7:42:26 GMT -6
Any update on the 251?
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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 9, 2021 9:41:38 GMT -6
Think Covid has really slowed down getting parts
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Post by chessparov on Apr 9, 2021 10:54:59 GMT -6
Also a shame about that big Japanese factory fire, which affects other hardware manufacturers. Chris
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Post by ab101 on Apr 9, 2021 11:50:43 GMT -6
Is the Heiserman 251 expected to cost less than the Upton? I think the Upton is great. Competition is still a good thing, though.
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