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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 9, 2024 20:03:13 GMT -6
I do have those cables...but there are no single outputs on the back of the carbon...I need an analog snake just to be able to use any of the outs (well, the monitor 1-2 is 1/4)...I ordered a Db25 to TRS snake (to be able to go directly from the snake to a patchbay) that will get here tomorrow...but I'll also have to go buy some 1/4 to XLR male adapters just to be able to connect analog to the Trinnov. This is getting ridiculous. That's what I mean, though: use those two "Monitor Out" TRS jacks to go to to the XLR ins on your Trinnov via your TRS to XLR-M cables. Just to see... Oh I get what you're saying...yeah...guess I could do that just to see what it sounds like until I get the DB25 to TRS cable with XLR adapters lol. This is going to look like a Rube Goldberg contraption. Oh wait...I can't even do that because: Carbon MON outs--> analog input of Trinnov--> Analog out of Trinnov--> Analog input of Carbon. BUT...then how do I monitor since the monitor outputs have already been used? EDIT - OK - got that set up. Analog from Carbon to Trinnov, then AES out of Trinnov to the Burl. I'd rather be able to skip the Burl and go straight digital back inot Carbon...but I can't figure out how to just monitor the digital signal. I'm gonna calibrate the TRinnov to this setup and report back. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 9, 2024 20:08:16 GMT -6
Nevermind. I can't calibrate the Trinnov because I'm using the analog inputs already. Square peg here. Sounds pretty good with the Trinnov profile I made for the Apollo Burl Combo lol.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 9, 2024 20:09:40 GMT -6
Think I'm done...I bought it used from GC, so I don't think I should have any problems taking it back.
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Post by subspace on Mar 9, 2024 20:30:53 GMT -6
Just got home from a long sitzprobe with the orchestra for an upcoming gig, looks like I missed your whole Carbon experience! Did you try just selecting ADAT 1: 1-2 under 'Mapping To Output' for MON L-R?  |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 9, 2024 21:05:40 GMT -6
Just got home from a long sitzprobe with the orchestra for an upcoming gig, looks like I missed your whole Carbon experience! Did you try just selecting ADAT 1: 1-2 under 'Mapping To Output' for MON L-R? Yeah. Nothing. I’m sure it’s some small thing I’m missing…maybe my aes/opt adapter isn’t working right…who knows. The lack of more than one option for digital out is probably going to be a dealbreaker for me. I’m going to live with it the next couple days and see if I figure things out enough to overlook some things. |
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Post by gwlee7 on Mar 9, 2024 21:30:36 GMT -6
Holy shit...I see the meters moving in the Trinnov...now I gotta figure out how to actually hear it... Quick...sacrifice a cat or something... Here kitty kitty…. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 9, 2024 21:36:39 GMT -6
Think I'm done...I bought it used from GC, so I don't think I should have any problems taking it back. Going the way of the Stream Deck, eh? You're kind of like a Roman emperor, "this one displeases me... execute him." I was hoping to live vicariously through this Carbon experiment! |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 9, 2024 22:30:34 GMT -6
Think I'm done...I bought it used from GC, so I don't think I should have any problems taking it back. Going the way of the Stream Deck, eh? You're kind of like a Roman emperor, "this one displeases me... execute him." I was hoping to live vicariously through this Carbon experiment! Bring me the brown one…he amuses me. |
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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 9, 2024 22:44:03 GMT -6
Think I'm done...I bought it used from GC, so I don't think I should have any problems taking it back. [...] I was hoping to live vicariously through this Carbon experiment! I think we all just did. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 11, 2024 11:17:17 GMT -6
OK - Day 3
Here's what I've been trying to do: Carbon MON 1-2 mirrored to digital I/O. Then Carbon optical out to AES IN of Trinnov. Then AES OUT of Trinnov BACK into Carbon Optical IN. But I get nothing. No return signal...I know the adapter works because I can send the last digital signal to the Burl instead or the Carbon and it works fine. But here's the dealbreaker it seems. From a Pro Tools Expert article, "How To Bring The Mac Mini Audio Into My Monitoring System - With my HD Omni and Mac Pro cheese-grater, I used an optical SPDIF cable from the optical out of my Mac Pro to the optical input of my HD Omni and then configured the HD Omni to route that through to my monitoring, enabling me to be able to monitor Pro Tools or any audio via the macOS like iTunes, Soundly etc without any switching. However, this is not an option with the MTRX Studio as although there are optical inputs they are exclusively ADAT ports and cannot be switched to SPDIF optical. Instead I used an instance of Dante Virtual Sound Card. My second requirement was for an audio interface with balanced audio and that is where the Focusrite 2i2 comes in.”
Guess that's game over because I don't know any other way to get the digital signal in to the Carbon. I could monitor with the Trinnov...just go out of the Trinnov. But that's not what I want to do.
Also - even if I COULD get it back into Carbon, I still wouldn't be able to use the Carbon for anything outside of pro tools because the SPDIF OUTS only work inside Pro Tools. Just two mind-numbingly bad design choices. And the guy above was using an MTRX which I think has a Dante connection too? The Carbon doesn't.
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Post by kcatthedog on Mar 11, 2024 11:25:50 GMT -6
Oh god, that sounds so frustrating. I’ll just keep rollin along with the grace of my Aurora, no controller, no other da, no fancy pants room adjustment, no monitors: just my cans, ears and years of mixing experience in my not so great room !  Not the best, but all I got ! |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 11, 2024 11:43:29 GMT -6
Well, maybe that article was older than this "What's new in Pro Tools 2021.1" release notes. Page 19. Am I drunk or does that not sound like Carbon DOES accept SPDIF Optical IN?
"Optical In Format (Detected)
Pro Tools | Carbon automatically detects the digital format of the incoming signal on optical ports 1 and 2 (labeled ADAT In 1 and
2 on the back panel). The detected format is displayed for each port: ADAT, S/PDIF, or N/A."
UPDATE:
OK - I was finally able to record through the Optical IN. And it sounds like shit. Sounds phasey as hell. Probably the Hosa adapter.
Really a shame. Hey - if you don't have need for digital connections, it sounds great. Guess it's back to Apollo for me.
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Post by kcatthedog on Mar 11, 2024 12:13:06 GMT -6
Man, what an ordeal.
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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 11, 2024 12:22:57 GMT -6
Well, maybe that article was older than this "What's new in Pro Tools 2021.1" release notes. Page 19. Am I drunk or does that not sound like Carbon DOES accept SPDIF Optical IN? "Optical In Format (Detected) Pro Tools | Carbon automatically detects the digital format of the incoming signal on optical ports 1 and 2 (labeled ADAT In 1 and 2 on the back panel). The detected format is displayed for each port: ADAT, S/PDIF, or N/A." UPDATE: OK - I was finally able to record through the Optical IN. And it sounds like shit. Sounds phasey as hell. Probably the Hosa adapter. Really a shame. Hey - if you don't have need for digital connections, it sounds great. Guess it's back to Apollo for me. I bet it doesn't (can't?) compensate for those digital ins because Pro Tools doesn't know what the latency of the Trinnov round trip is. Oh, here's an idea - just hit the "ping" button...no, wait, that's a Logic or Cubase or Studio One or Reaper feature. My bad. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 11, 2024 12:23:25 GMT -6
I REALLY hate giving up on anything...but this is just paying an extra $2800 for more limitations. And hey - if HWDC now works in Pro Tools Studio with other Interfaces? I'm changing to this for what again? I should probably just keep the Apollo as the hub and maybe look at different ADDA's if I want. While the Burl sounds is awesome on the bottom end...I DO think it's also a little hyped on the top end too. And it bothers me. Sounds like I want a Symphony lol.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 11, 2024 12:24:35 GMT -6
Well, maybe that article was older than this "What's new in Pro Tools 2021.1" release notes. Page 19. Am I drunk or does that not sound like Carbon DOES accept SPDIF Optical IN? "Optical In Format (Detected) Pro Tools | Carbon automatically detects the digital format of the incoming signal on optical ports 1 and 2 (labeled ADAT In 1 and 2 on the back panel). The detected format is displayed for each port: ADAT, S/PDIF, or N/A." UPDATE: OK - I was finally able to record through the Optical IN. And it sounds like shit. Sounds phasey as hell. Probably the Hosa adapter. Really a shame. Hey - if you don't have need for digital connections, it sounds great. Guess it's back to Apollo for me. I bet it doesn't (can't?) compensate for those digital ins because Pro Tools doesn't know what the latency of the Trinnov round trip is. Oh, here's an idea - just hit the "ping" button...no, wait, that's a Logic or Cubase or Studio One or Reaper feature. My bad. Here in the last hour, I've figured out some stuff. I'm sure I could figure out how to get stuff to work with workarounds...But why am I paying $2800 to add more hassle? |
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Post by Shadowk on Mar 11, 2024 12:26:45 GMT -6
UPDATE: OK - I was finally able to record through the Optical IN. And it sounds like shit. Sounds phasey as hell. Probably the Hosa adapter. It will do, because there's no latency compensation on ADAT and you're not using it the way Avid wants you to  .. ADAT is an "expansion"..
With something like a Trinnov it would be an inline insertion so you essentially buy an expensive converter to have the room correction HW do the DAC for you (even if the specs are worse). No you can't mirror Mon directly, it has alts on 1-2 but you can remap in Pro Tools and if you know MAC you can also use Audio / Midi setup via CoreAudio to map whatever output you like I just wouldn't try to bring it back into Carbon and you know, use it as an actual AD/DA.
Although, this is HDX / Pro Tools etc. all over for me. Even with MTRX + HDX there's some weird fecking limitations for "reasons", meanwhile a $700.00 MOTU interface can do this a million times better. As my speakers are AES the reason I'm looking at room correction is not for the actual correction, yeah John I know you love your Trinnov but with a DSP speaker packed with options to get phase coherence and EQ balance it gets you close enough anyway. No, I'll buy a Dirac just to get the damn AES inputs working..
Apart from that it's pretty cool LMFAO..
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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 11, 2024 12:27:50 GMT -6
I bet it doesn't (can't?) compensate for those digital ins because Pro Tools doesn't know what the latency of the Trinnov round trip is. Oh, here's an idea - just hit the "ping" button...no, wait, that's a Logic or Cubase or Studio One or Reaper feature. My bad. Here in the last hour, I've figured out some stuff. I'm sure I could figure out how to get stuff to work with workarounds...But why am I paying $2800 to add more hassle? Lower latency? Tighter integration with Pro Tools?
I don't know, your experience has soured me on Pro Tools again, though. It just seems like they have a special committee whose full-time job is sitting around and coming up with little niggles in their hardware to piss people off juuuuust enough to nudge them to go HDX. That's exactly how it felt to me 20+ yrs ago, and it's so disappointing to see that little has changed.
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Post by Shadowk on Mar 11, 2024 12:30:59 GMT -6
Here in the last hour, I've figured out some stuff. I'm sure I could figure out how to get stuff to work with workarounds...But why am I paying $2800 to add more hassle? Lower latency? Tighter integration with Pro Tools?
I don't know, your experience has soured me on Pro Tools again, though. It just seems like they have a special committee whose full-time job is sitting around and coming up with little niggles in their hardware to piss people off juuuuust enough to nudge them to go HDX.
Always read the fine print with Avid (I spent two weeks researching before I bought Carbon), it either works better than anything or it's a complete nightmare in certain setups. When I said this was niche to Quint, I really meant it.. I try to avoid writing a book on these things but you'll get what I mean sooner or later. |
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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 11, 2024 12:38:06 GMT -6
UPDATE: OK - I was finally able to record through the Optical IN. And it sounds like shit. Sounds phasey as hell. Probably the Hosa adapter. It will do, because there's no latency compensation on ADAT and you're not using it the way Avid wants you to .. ADAT is an "expansion"..
With something like a Trinnov it would be an inline insertion so you essentially buy an expensive converter to have the room correction HW do the DAC for you (even if the specs are worse). No you can't mirror Mon directly, it has alts on 1-2 but you can remap in Pro Tools and if you know MAC you can also use Audio / Midi setup via CoreAudio to map whatever output you like I just wouldn't try to bring it back into Carbon and you know, use it as an actual AD/DA.
Although, this is HDX / Pro Tools etc. all over for me. Even with MTRX + HDX there's some weird fecking limitations for "reasons", meanwhile a $700.00 MOTU interface can do this a million times better. As my speakers are AES the reason I'm looking at room correction is not for the actual correction, yeah John I know you love your Trinnov but with a DSP speaker packed with options to get phase coherence and EQ balance it gets you close enough anyway. No, I'll buy a Dirac just to get the damn AES inputs working..
Apart from that it's pretty cool LMFAO..
Yeah, I'm thinking the only real way for someone in John's shoes to make it work is to not do the loopback thing, and just try the Trinnov's D/A. And then if the Trinnov's D/A isn't sounding how one likes, get a different D/A with an AES input. I would hope with as much as the Trinnov costs that its A/D/A would sound pretty damn good... |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 11, 2024 12:41:57 GMT -6
Lower latency? Tighter integration with Pro Tools? I don't know, your experience has soured me on Pro Tools again, though. It just seems like they have a special committee whose full-time job is sitting around and coming up with little niggles in their hardware to piss people off juuuuust enough to nudge them to go HDX.
Always read the fine print with Avid (I spent two weeks researching before I bought Carbon), it either works better than anything or it's a complete nightmare in certain setups. When I said this was niche to Quint, I really meant it.. I try to avoid writing a book on these things but you'll get what I mean sooner or later. Yeah...I rushed into it because there was a used one for $2599...I figured I could deal with workarounds...but it's just not going to work for me with the Trinnov. |
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Post by notneeson on Mar 11, 2024 12:44:26 GMT -6
Always read the fine print with Avid (I spent two weeks researching before I bought Carbon), it either works better than anything or it's a complete nightmare in certain setups. When I said this was niche to Quint, I really meant it.. I try to avoid writing a book on these things but you'll get what I mean sooner or later. Yeah...I rushed into it because there was a used one for $2599...I figured I could deal with workarounds...but it's just not going to work for me with the Trinnov. Without software? |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 11, 2024 12:49:01 GMT -6
It will do, because there's no latency compensation on ADAT and you're not using it the way Avid wants you to .. ADAT is an "expansion".. With something like a Trinnov it would be an inline insertion so you essentially buy an expensive converter to have the room correction HW do the DAC for you (even if the specs are worse). No you can't mirror Mon directly, it has alts on 1-2 but you can remap in Pro Tools and if you know MAC you can also use Audio / Midi setup via CoreAudio to map whatever output you like I just wouldn't try to bring it back into Carbon and you know, use it as an actual AD/DA. Although, this is HDX / Pro Tools etc. all over for me. Even with MTRX + HDX there's some weird fecking limitations for "reasons", meanwhile a $700.00 MOTU interface can do this a million times better. As my speakers are AES the reason I'm looking at room correction is not for the actual correction, yeah John I know you love your Trinnov but with a DSP speaker packed with options to get phase coherence and EQ balance it gets you close enough anyway. No, I'll buy a Dirac just to get the damn AES inputs working.. Apart from that it's pretty cool LMFAO..
Yeah, I'm thinking the only real way for someone in John's shoes to make it work is to not do the loopback thing, and just try the Trinnov's D/A. And then if the Trinnov's D/A isn't sounding how one likes, get a different D/A with an AES input. I would hope with as much as the Trinnov costs that its A/D/A would sound pretty damn good... I don't think the Trinnov's DA is anything to write home about. And yeah, I could keep the Burl and probably deal with most everything - although not being able to listen hear anything OTHER the Pro Tools out of the SPDIF OUTS is also pretty much a deal breaker. I want to be able to hear my finished mixes (and everything else) corrected by the Trinnov. Also - I was wanting to sell the Apollo - I guess I could just rely on my native UAD plugins and park the rest until I got a satellite...but what a major pain in the ass I'm causing myself...I really just wanted HWDC. Sure, it works right now in this version, but I'm not so sure about the next. This is more trouble than not having HWDC. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 11, 2024 12:49:29 GMT -6
Yeah...I rushed into it because there was a used one for $2599...I figured I could deal with workarounds...but it's just not going to work for me with the Trinnov. Without software? Yeah - works with the Studio I had. |
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Post by Shadowk on Mar 11, 2024 12:51:30 GMT -6
Yeah...I rushed into it because there was a used one for $2599...I figured I could deal with workarounds...but it's just not going to work for me with the Trinnov. I guess it comes down to what Mark was saying, is the AD/DA in the Trinnov bad at all? Take ARC studio for example you have no choice but to use it's AD/DA on top of your converters and to many it's not going to matter. At least with the Trinnov you can get it converted to S/pdif and then monitor out of the Trinnov's DAC.
With DSP speakers like the Dynaudio Core 59's I'm in the exact same situation, the speakers themselves are going to do a conversion trip but they sound stunning so I'm not too fussed. With me I'm wondering whether or not to sell off the SSL Big Six, the desk is a bit mid pushed and I agree the Carbon is as well. By itself I kinda like it, when stacked I dunno..
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.. ADAT is an "expansion"..