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Post by Ward on Apr 11, 2020 14:19:29 GMT -6
After more testing I am not sure about these Warms. They are just a touch on the muddy side to my ear. I don't know why it seems so hard to just buy the KM184 I used to be head over heels about, mainly that big price tag is hard to stomach. Anyone who has ever sold a KM84 (and for some a KM184) has had NOTHING but regrets. Those are lifers!
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Post by chessparov on Apr 11, 2020 15:08:51 GMT -6
My guess would be the Advanced Audio CM1084, "inspired by" the KM84 would be cleaner sounding (than the Warm)... Chris
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Post by thirdeye on Apr 11, 2020 15:37:04 GMT -6
After more testing I am not sure about these Warms. They are just a touch on the muddy side to my ear. I don't know why it seems so hard to just buy the KM184 I used to be head over heels about, mainly that big price tag is hard to stomach. I found the WA84 had an exaggerated low end compared to my KM84s.
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Post by Guitar on Apr 11, 2020 15:47:05 GMT -6
After more testing I am not sure about these Warms. They are just a touch on the muddy side to my ear. I don't know why it seems so hard to just buy the KM184 I used to be head over heels about, mainly that big price tag is hard to stomach. I found the WA84 had an exaggerated low end compared to my KM84s. I agree. Just in general, it's got a little mud going on. Mids aren't as clear as a Neumann. A little unrefined sounding, a little "raw." I think I might get another RGA guitar instead. Feel like my Oktavas and Shure KSM are more that enough of SDC's for now. I am being very picky.
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Post by reddirt on Apr 11, 2020 16:00:45 GMT -6
Another devil's advocate here monkeyxx - you may be sub-consciously put off by the 'collective wisdom' which holds the 184 in questionable regard. Not saying that view is right because it's what works for you. I haven't used the 184 but heard them on an acoustic act at WomAdelaide in March - very impressive job and obviously not a 'hack' mic.
I have an AKG 451 bought new in 1985 which I hold in very high regard and have cut whole album vocals with it but collective wisdom would probably say it wouldn't be a good idea. To take that further, I'm cutting acoustic guitar tracks more readily with my Stam 87 (lovely Heiserman cap /Sowter) than my KM84 so again whatever works. Cheers, Ross
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Post by Blackdawg on Apr 11, 2020 16:06:53 GMT -6
After more testing I am not sure about these Warms. They are just a touch on the muddy side to my ear. I don't know why it seems so hard to just buy the KM184 I used to be head over heels about, mainly that big price tag is hard to stomach. how much money do you think you've spent looking at other mic's chasing the the sound you liked from the Neumann? Buy once. Cry once.
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Post by Guitar on Apr 11, 2020 16:07:09 GMT -6
Another devil's advocate here monkeyxx - you may be sub-consciously put off by the 'collective wisdom' which holds the 184 in questionable regard. Not saying that view is right because it's what works for you. I haven't used the 184 but heard them on an acoustic act at WomAdelaide in March - very impressive job and obviously not a 'hack' mic. I have an AKG 451 bought new in 1985 which I hold in very high regard and have cut whole album vocals with it but collective wisdom would probably say it wouldn't be a good idea. To take that further, I'm cutting acoustic guitar tracks more readily with my Stam 87 (lovely Heiserman cap /Sowter) than my KM84 so again whatever works. Cheers, Ross I loved the KM184. I've defended it against the detractors. I owned some AKG 451 E with CK1, it was a nice mic, but not really blowing me away or anything. I sold them because they seemed old and delicate. Had to repair one of them before selling.
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Post by Guitar on Apr 11, 2020 16:08:12 GMT -6
After more testing I am not sure about these Warms. They are just a touch on the muddy side to my ear. I don't know why it seems so hard to just buy the KM184 I used to be head over heels about, mainly that big price tag is hard to stomach. how much money do you think you've spent looking at other mic's chasing the the sound you liked from the Neumann? Buy once. Cry once. That's a very fair point. At this point it does feel like chasing the Neumann. Which I guess tells me what I need to do.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,992
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Post by ericn on Apr 11, 2020 16:46:48 GMT -6
After more testing I am not sure about these Warms. They are just a touch on the muddy side to my ear. I don't know why it seems so hard to just buy the KM184 I used to be head over heels about, mainly that big price tag is hard to stomach. Anyone who has ever sold a KM84 (and for some a KM184) has had NOTHING but regrets. Those are lifers! Never regretted selling the 184. OK I did make a profit on it but still haven’t regretted selling it. I wonder if it would be possible to re- thread the Warms or some similar donor body?
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Post by Vincent R. on Apr 11, 2020 18:09:01 GMT -6
My guess would be the Advanced Audio CM1084, "inspired by" the KM84 would be cleaner sounding (than the Warm)... Chris That’s all of the Advanced Audio mics. Clean by design. The WA47 is a like that. It has a huge low end bump that is exaggerated.
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Post by notneeson on Apr 11, 2020 21:00:53 GMT -6
how much money do you think you've spent looking at other mic's chasing the the sound you liked from the Neumann? Buy once. Cry once. That's a very fair point. At this point it does feel like chasing the Neumann. Which I guess tells me what I need to do. We have a pair of KM184s at my little local spot and I still kind of want a Beesneez Lulu Fet having used one on a session. Or a real KM84, I certainly love the real thing. I guess the price point isn't really that bad if they continue to appreciate. Sell 'em when you lose your hearing.
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Post by reddirt on Apr 11, 2020 22:13:19 GMT -6
If you can make the 184 work, go for it I reckon. Could you get one 2nd hand? then it won't be a worry if your memory has built it into more than it is and you can flip it for little to no loss or keep it anyway as there are bound to be uses for it even if its jobs like hi-hat etc.
FWIW An interesting point for me is when I bought my 451 EB in 1985 it was a time of a few well made mics priced accordingly and it was my best at the time so I got to know it really well; I would suggest that we probably do not engage to the same depth these days with the plethora of options out there and perhaps don't get the best out of what we have at times. Cheers, Ross
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Apr 11, 2020 22:25:43 GMT -6
If you can make the 184 work, go for it I reckon. Could you get one 2nd hand? then it won't be a worry if your memory has built it into more than it is and you can flip it for little to no loss or keep it anyway as there are bound to be uses for it even if its jobs like hi-hat etc. FWIW An interesting point for me is when I bought my 451 EB in 1985 it was a time of a few well made mics priced accordingly and it was my best at the time so I got to know it really well; I would suggest that we probably do not engage to the same depth these days with the plethora of options out there and perhaps don't get the best out of what we have at times. Cheers, Ross Ross you nailed with this post! Never knock what works and know as much as you can about your tools!
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Post by nick8801 on Apr 12, 2020 5:28:01 GMT -6
Curious as to anyone’s opinion here who has used both the 84 and the Beyer mc930. I’ve had the Beyers for several years and can’t imagine parting with them. I’ve heard they compare more favorably with the 84 than the 184, but I’ve never had the opportunity to compare in person.
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Post by Ward on Apr 12, 2020 9:37:25 GMT -6
Curious as to anyone’s opinion here who has used both the 84 and the Beyer mc930. I’ve had the Beyers for several years and can’t imagine parting with them. I’ve heard they compare more favorably with the 84 than the 184, but I’ve never had the opportunity to compare in person. I have both and use both regularly on a weekly basis. I prefer the detail of the Beyer 930s on overheads, but prefer the realistic capture of the 84s on stringed acoustic instruments and snare drum. And if you prefer the 184 over the 84, there's a chance you may be losing the top end of your hearing. It still has the Neumann SDC sound, but is definitely hyped. JMHO IME YMMV etc
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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 12, 2020 10:11:44 GMT -6
After more testing I am not sure about these Warms. They are just a touch on the muddy side to my ear. I don't know why it seems so hard to just buy the KM184 I used to be head over heels about, mainly that big price tag is hard to stomach. Anyone who has ever sold a KM84 (and for some a KM184) has had NOTHING but regrets. Those are lifers! I sold after getting the Soyuz...big price difference. If money wasn’t an object, I’d have the KM84, but the results end up very similar.
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Post by nick8801 on Apr 12, 2020 10:56:53 GMT -6
Curious as to anyone’s opinion here who has used both the 84 and the Beyer mc930. I’ve had the Beyers for several years and can’t imagine parting with them. I’ve heard they compare more favorably with the 84 than the 184, but I’ve never had the opportunity to compare in person. I have both and use both regularly on a weekly basis. I prefer the detail of the Beyer 930s on overheads, but prefer the realistic capture of the 84s on stringed acoustic instruments and snare drum. And if you prefer the 184 over the 84, there's a chance you may be losing the top end of your hearing. It still has the Neumann SDC sound, but is definitely hyped. JMHO IME YMMV etc I use the Beyers as overheads, so I’m glad you like them better than the 84’s for that duty!
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Post by Omicron9 on Apr 13, 2020 8:29:00 GMT -6
Another devil's advocate here monkeyxx - you may be sub-consciously put off by the 'collective wisdom' which holds the 184 in questionable regard. Not saying that view is right because it's what works for you. I haven't used the 184 but heard them on an acoustic act at WomAdelaide in March - very impressive job and obviously not a 'hack' mic. I have an AKG 451 bought new in 1985 which I hold in very high regard and have cut whole album vocals with it but collective wisdom would probably say it wouldn't be a good idea. To take that further, I'm cutting acoustic guitar tracks more readily with my Stam 87 (lovely Heiserman cap /Sowter) than my KM84 so again whatever works. Cheers, Ross I loved the KM184. I've defended it against the detractors. I owned some AKG 451 E with CK1, it was a nice mic, but not really blowing me away or anything. I sold them because they seemed old and delicate. Had to repair one of them before selling. +1 here on liking the KM184/183. Fine mics in my experience and opinion. -09
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Post by notneeson on Apr 13, 2020 9:04:04 GMT -6
I was saying to a studio owner buddy that Martin/Gibson > KM84 > Vintage Neve has consistently been the best acoustic sound I’ve gotten.
But this thread reminded me that one of my fav acoustic guitar solos I ever recorded was a Klaus modded U87 into my Quad Eights. Guitar was one of those mustache bridge jumbo Gibsons. Kind of unusual perhaps but it was great!
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Post by Vincent R. on Apr 13, 2020 10:43:43 GMT -6
I love my U87ai on acoustic guitar.
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Post by jampa on Apr 15, 2020 0:00:17 GMT -6
Every time someone visits this thread, chessparov grows younger
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Post by notneeson on Apr 15, 2020 14:36:39 GMT -6
I love my U87ai on acoustic guitar. The 87 honk can be fatiguing on strumming sounds, but can really work for you certain types of playing/guitar combos.
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Post by cdkelly on Apr 25, 2020 13:22:47 GMT -6
My guess would be the Advanced Audio CM1084, "inspired by" the KM84 would be cleaner sounding (than the Warm)... Chris That’s all of the Advanced Audio mics. Clean by design. The WA47 is a like that. It has a huge low end bump that is exaggerated. good ear! you're right about that. I know why it does, and its actually one of the things I correct in the WA-47 mods that I do under Signal Art. It's a really popular mod, and probably the most extensive. -Chad
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Post by cdkelly on Apr 25, 2020 14:02:28 GMT -6
IMHO 3U and AA use better overall circuitry, than Warm. Chris please don't take this as a challenge, it's just a questionIs there any available online comparison that would show circuit differences? cdkelly you know of anything? OK, well out of the three companies mentioned, only one of them actually does design their own circuitry that I'm aware, and that's 3U, believe it or not. So any differences in terms of superiority or inferiority among the other two are likely to be incidental, because the other two do not have engineers on staff or design their own PCBs, to the best of my knowledge. The other two companies mentioned sort of sell what is designed for them overseas, and market those designs. I'll try to be as diplomatic as I can because I don't want to start anything against any brand. Guosheng and 3U definitely know what they are doing; the only caveat I would say is that they take liberties with classic designs... So you wouldn't go to them for an absolute replica of say, a U67 or a 251; but you would go to them for a 67-ish or 251-ish mic that performs great. They will do things like put a FET front end to a 67 in order to reduce the noise impact from the EF86 tube, etc. things that are solid engineering decisions but not necessarily for 'originalists' or purists of tone. So with one caveat, I would say he does make some high performance gear that punches well above its weight. Due to not having American distributorship or retail packaging that meets western standards, 3U's mics will continue to be a secret weapon for those who are in the know. For those who don't know of him, chances are you have some of his products anyway because he makes capsules for a wide range of brands... some of which are very expensive. AA definitely are friendly and know a lot more about microphone designs than some of their competition. Unsurprisingly, I don't agree with everything they say and do. Mic guys rarely do, so please take with a grain of salt and in a positive spirit! LOL Probably my biggest difference of opinion is their justification for keeping the Asian transformers in those microphones (and within that, I most strongly disagree with calling a postage-stamp sized transformer a BV8, which is not and does not sound like a BV8...sorry, I gotta call that one out... had one of those in the shop one time and it is not a BV8. A BV8 has to actually be made from a certain lamination size and type or it is not a BV8. When you call something else a BV8, the audio police get called on you and I'm dialing... LOL. Just to quote from my saved correspondence with AMI, "There is no way around it, a transformer cannot correctly be called a BV8 without lamination size UI30"). It is rare in my experience to find an Asian transformer that competes with the likes of AMI, Cinemag, or even Altran or Edcore; and their explanation I find a bit lacking, at least for me, personally. They mentioned that the stock transformers have exceptional bandwidth and therefore don't need 'Cinemag' or what not, was the answer I got many years ago at a trade show. but bandwidth was rarely the issue on generic transformers, at least not high frequency bandwidth... phase distortion, headroom, tonality, signal loss, and other things that are harder to see on an AP sweep typically are. I generally am wary when folks talk about the bandwidth or the frequency response of a part (or of a mic) as being the same as the reference they are going after... its usually a sign that they don't see the bigger picture. It's very possible for things to have similar bandwidth and frequency response and still sound different to the ear. It's not impossible to find a good Asian transformer, or to adapt a circuit to make one perform really well... (in fact, there is one transformer that I do use that is from Asia in one of my mods (for the Sterling ST67), which 3U actually helped me to find, btw, just to give credit where it's due... but as a general rule, you have to really tread carefully on that issue. Maybe they did the ground work and have all great magnetics; I just worry about that issue, personally. Transformers are very important, and there are some real construction and technology differences between how, say, Cinemag and AMI are built, and how Asian transformers are built, and you just simply cannot gloss over all of that. It really is the lens of the camera... it matters. And one thing I have learned (and not to sound too 'Massenburg' here) is that if you get a smeared or compromised signal on the way in, it is nearly impossible to clear that up later on. Conversely, its very easy to smear a clean sound if you decide you want that. Again, just my 2 cents on that. please take it in the constructive spirit it was intended. When I heard the WA-84 in a studio late last year finally, I was actually fairly satisfied with how it came out. I did not get to hear them on the instrument I most needed to (cymbals and acoustic gtr), but from what I could tell it was OK. This was, of course, in a fantastic Walters/Storyk designed room and on an API console, so I imagine that helped. I would say, of all the ones I worked on in some stage of development for that company, those maybe are the ones I'd point to and say that they came out more or less as intended. Again, I need to do more testing; but that was my 'hot take' impression when I finally heard them.
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Post by chessparov on Apr 25, 2020 16:34:16 GMT -6
As a sidenote... Is some of this why the low end of the WA-87, sounds different than a vintage 87 to me? Gwlee has one, and it sounds very nice to my ear-with his sing'n & playn'. Also there were some other good vocal clips made with it, compared to the GAP version of the Sony C800G. Hey if you can KH hot rod, a U87ai... Then I figure you can do something similar with the WA-87. Thanks, Chris
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