ericn
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Post by ericn on Apr 15, 2024 15:53:18 GMT -6
Yes the boundary issue is going to effect LF, but the location of the port isn’t going to matter, your addressing it like it’s a boundary with the port, it’s not it’s the cabinet. Of course I could be wrong, but then we would have to throw out the rules every speaker designer has accepted, how LF is managed by every major touring company etc. I don't think you're incorrect. From my very limited knowledge because it's not electronics or extensively techy geeky stuff a port is nothing more than a way to release air caused by the LMF driver moving. So, teach me Jedi.. Is there some way it could be a crap design? Like a resonance caused by the baffle / pipe or something that would explain it? I was never confused until I did these tests. I mean it could have been purely circumstancial but you'd have thought the tiny speaker (8341) would cause less boundary issues than a 1.7ft long speaker right?
Oh and sorry Johnkenn for derailing, I have ordered a Trinnov Nova demo unit. I guess it's a more sensible idea than very expensive speakers, not as fun though.. Let’s take a look at the boundary issues of the smaller cabinet, if frequency response is more or less equal, yeah a smaller cabinet is going to have more positioning issues because in each plane it’s going to go Omni sooner (higher freq). Then you add in all those pesky little peaks and valleys that are natural with transducers it’s going to have even more issues. With what passes for soffit or flush mounted these days we have a pretty simple way of addressing some of these issues by turning the walls into baffles, except for the fact other than some expensive large scale speakers nobody designs speakers to be mounted with a gigantic baffle. Not even the majority of home in ceiling or wall speakers, most are either mobile products or simply an in wall variation of a free standing speaker.
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Post by ericn on Apr 15, 2024 14:23:16 GMT -6
Yes the boundary issue is going to effect LF, but the location of the port isn’t going to matter, your addressing it like it’s a boundary with the port, it’s not it’s the cabinet. Of course I could be wrong, but then we would have to throw out the rules every speaker designer has accepted, how LF is managed by every major touring company etc.
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Post by ericn on Apr 15, 2024 14:09:50 GMT -6
The 166 was the go to affordable live comp till digital consoles took over. Funny how it was loved up until the cheaper and crappier 266 came along. The one thing a 166 kills the Composer on is as a stereo comp. The 166 uses both ch detectors in stereo the composer only the left, so if you notice it’s not catching peaks it’s not if they are on the right or hotter on the right. Interesting. I think I'm gonna pick up a second one of these on Craigslist for $100 and put them both on my live rack. Starting to pick up some more live gigs and I was gonna throw some of my RNC's on it (I've got millions of those) for some vocal taming but 166 is even cheaper and can do dual mono. It sounds like what a DBX comp sound like to my ears. Send them to Jim Williams and you will wonder why the hate😁
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Apr 15, 2024 13:26:00 GMT -6
File this one in "low end". I pulled at 166XS out of my live mix rack for a couple extra channels of tracking some spare parts tracks and was pretty surprised at how it sounded. Honestly, it behaved identically to the 160X that I use routinely on bass and for parallel duties. It's not like the 160x is expensive, but 166XS is routinely sold for $50/channel which is like buying a couple decent beers around these parts. I pretty much never use anything other than Overeasy and Auto release for 160x... this feels like a rare hidden gem in this day and age of "so much information that nothing good is cheap for long." Anyone disagree? This is an opinion based on an EXTREMELY limited sample size (one track in one session). The 166 was the go to affordable live comp till digital consoles took over. Funny how it was loved up until the cheaper and crappier 266 came along. The one thing a 166 kills the Composer on is as a stereo comp. The 166 uses both ch detectors in stereo the composer only the left, so if you notice it’s not catching peaks it’s not if they are on the right or hotter on the right.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Apr 15, 2024 13:19:23 GMT -6
Well Shadowk, not only is the Beyer M160 one of the all-time enduring greats in the overall general purpose utility ribbon mics category, The M88 is likely the best Small diaphragm dynamic ever made, Try out the Beyer cardioid 740 or multi pattern 834, which is by far the best natural sounding LDC I've used. No hype, incredibly perfect no-noise no-harshness, most honest and accurate Large Diaphragm solid state microphone. Ever. They are more like mid sized but yeah except for the gate like effect you can hear on long decays of featured acoustic instruments. A very very over looked mic. If we are talking beyer ribbons don’t forget the M260. While the dual diaphragm of the 160 gives you more output the single diaphragm of the 260 means your not at the mercy of the summing of the 2 diaphragms so it can bring out a tad more detail.
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Post by ericn on Apr 15, 2024 13:13:37 GMT -6
Port position won’t matter, at a tuned freq of 47 they will be acting as an Omni radiator long before that . I'm certainly not disputing the omnidirectional nature of bass and if your monitors are free standing sure. However in a boundary loaded situation? Arc, REW, GLM all disagree unfortunatley and GLM isn't all that hard to understand. It literally gave me a report saying move it further away from the wall dummy, well it didn't say dummy but I'd have chuckled if it did.
As soon as I switched to the Dyn's which are front ported, less issues in the 40 - 80Hz range. Same position thereabouts, I have a stupidy large desk so there's not that much room for monitor positioning. Ultimately I can only go by the readouts I'm getting..
It’s those pesky laws of physics if the wave length is greater than the size of the baffle it acts as an Omni radiatior. You might see a peak around the port freq and sense that it is directional, but what you are more likely seeing is a phase issue. Yes surrounding gear may cause some issues but you’re not creating a 2 meter baffle. Also moving the port to cure such an issue it’s just going to mean you need to be more careful with the front baffle. Remember this is not a 2D issue it’s a 3D phenomenon. My hunch is this will also show up less with a array type mic than a simple inexpensive “ calibratied mic” hell I notice it with the Mini DSP USB even with its individual profile, not so much with the Audix MBHO. The other “ trick” I was taught years ago was for everything bellow about 200HZ to base my EQ choices based on a more mid field measurement. Rear ports got a bad rep in the pro world many years ago when a manufacturer built some awesome compact dual 18 subs, killer in small arrays, but a couple of rap guys loved them tried touring with a truck full and created huge baffles.
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Post by ericn on Apr 15, 2024 11:01:43 GMT -6
The GIK treatment (£3K worth) was obviously highly effective! As I said my mixes translate to the outside world absolutely perfectly - there’s nothing I ever want to change about a mix hearing it on any other system. Rule one, if it ain’t broke …. don’t fix it But I do appreciate what you’re saying, I simply don’t have a scientific approach to my music making. Unfortunately they're not physics breaking effective though and can't even deal with my monitors, I have similar sized room to you (4.1M X 4.7M) or (13.5 ft. by 15.4 ft.).
The SCM 25's are probably saving you a bit if you're not boundary loading them too hard due to them rolling off at 47hz but they could also cause more issues due to them being side ported, how big are your traps for first reflections? Nothing GIK makes can cover it, even for my front ported I had to get a custom built 3ft deep rear wall / corner absorber with diaphragmatic material and my monitors are not cardioid so hmm. When it comes to corner bass, tri-traps run at 50Hz. The soffits are the only one's that could probably deal with the SCM's at 40Hz.
My Dyn's are even worse as they have big ol' 9.5" drivers, they are somewhat boundary loaded and begin to roll off at -36. REW sweep runs at tons of different locations shows that my monitors are trying to produce nearly 30Hz which is crazy in a room my size. I've tried to correct this multiple ways, a high pass up to 38Hz then correction from there on and I can get +-3dB with ARC but I won't deny it. Despite having GIK design it and an acoustician verify we all knew miracles couldn't happen, the aim was to avoid a null so I could correct after the fact. The other option was to use my large room (8.2M X 5.4M) which would be happy without correction at 40Hz but that required 40+ panels if I remember correctly.
Even built from the ground up studio's can be challenging, then there's the stuff you put in the room to consider. Acoustics is a complex topic, I've never researched it enough to really get to the bottom of it so I've been similar to you. Just get on with it sorta thing, after I tried Genelec's GLM though it really was interesting (this can do something similar to Trinnov).. Sure, things translate and I'm not finding any major issues, I've worked in worse rooms with worse monitors. Although in terms of consistency especially now I've used GLM I wouldn't personally disregard it.
The only issue I have with the Trinnov is for the price you're not far off a set of Genelec 8341's and GLM is fantastic it really is, I suppose it really depends if you like Genelec's or not..
Port position won’t matter, at a tuned freq of 47 they will be acting as an Omni radiator long before that .
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Apr 14, 2024 10:20:21 GMT -6
It’s simple Danny, Billy specs ATC’s over a smaller bandwidth than they can actually operate in for those nice low distortion figures.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Apr 13, 2024 20:40:02 GMT -6
At 2G's with no amp, there's a lot of great quality competition out there. 4K for monitors and power isn’t cheap. I keep looking at Dirac and I’m looking for something to use in the new bedroom. Now I was looking at a pair of Passive HHB circle / Harbeth’s for $200. Now for 4K I could get one hell of an amp.
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Post by ericn on Apr 13, 2024 20:35:08 GMT -6
Bring your own near fields was a first step I never used to do an outside session without bringing LSR28P's. What a PITA. Especially when I was mixing in 5.1. But it was worth it. I could sus things out pronto when bringing my own "near" (more like mid) fields. Yeah it was funny how often I got weird looks as I walked around listening to my test CD. Guys couldn’t understand why I wasn’t just sitting in the sweet spot or how often the sweet spot for LF wasn’t at the console.
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Post by ericn on Apr 13, 2024 20:32:23 GMT -6
It would have been great, instead it was play a couple of songs you knew well maybe take a look and listen to some pink noise with an RTA. Bring your own near fields was a first step, the hard part as I’m sure you realize is bringing your own room correction and making it simple to plug and play, but things are as improving and rooms are getting worse. The Trinnov profile process only takes about 5 minutes…so you could bring a nova with you and shoot the room. I Know, John but I was thinking more of bringing the unit patching. When I found the porta brace soft case that fit Genelec 1030’s like a glove I sold twice as many. Even with Dirac guys don’t want the extra box and the flex is a 1/2 rack.
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Post by ericn on Apr 13, 2024 20:08:16 GMT -6
I’ll admit I have probably bought and sold off DBX 160xt’d at least 10 times can’t count how many Mackie 1202’s I have had.
I think the interesting exercise here is how much would one have to spend on a octo card or box plus an interface to equal the modded Apollo and what would you sacrifice ?
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Post by ericn on Apr 13, 2024 20:03:25 GMT -6
There are a ton of headphones with better isolation than 7506, but the Sonys live in this sweet spot where reasonable isolation and fidelity meet. Plus the smile curve is great for deaf drummers.
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Post by ericn on Apr 13, 2024 20:00:33 GMT -6
We are entering an interesting age, the lack of computer power was for ever what kept people from attempting a deep fake, now while the horse power might not be there to do it perfectly you can find the tools so any idiot can try.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Apr 13, 2024 19:56:49 GMT -6
Yeah but freelancers have been doing it for years! Your Trinnov adventure has me looking at the Mini DSP / Dirac options almost daily. Damn you Mister Kennedy 😁 But I bet they wish they had room correction. Because we all know when you’re in a different room for the first time, you’re kinda flying blind. You can ONLY mix to what your ears tell you is correct…so, if the room is quirky - there’s no way to know that. So that first mix might be all over the place when you check it outside the room. I get that people have been doing this for years…but why if you don’t have to? It would have been great, instead it was play a couple of songs you knew well maybe take a look and listen to some pink noise with an RTA. Bring your own near fields was a first step, the hard part as I’m sure you realize is bringing your own room correction and making it simple to plug and play, but things are as improving and rooms are getting worse.
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Post by ericn on Apr 13, 2024 17:54:48 GMT -6
If you really want vibe find a Ampex 1100 or 440, just get ready to learn how to break without spooling on the floor.. Haha!! Indeed ericn . For sheer ferocity and punch, the 2" 16 track Ampex MM1000 I once had was a beast. No equals. But running a session on it? . You got really good at punching roughly a half second before the in point, and yeah, tape handling? Haha! A different world LOL There is an 1100 that needs a lot of work but cheap 2 hours away, honestly the combination of 440-8 and RADAR keep me from grabbing it, that and the need for a bigger storage with shop space!
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Post by ericn on Apr 13, 2024 17:48:58 GMT -6
If Al Schmidt, Vance Powell, Serbhan Genea, Eric Valentine or Ryan Hewitt mixed something in my room without the Trinnov, it would have the same issues I had with it. The greatest ears in the world can’t overcome a -10 db dip at 90Hz. Now - you could learn to unnaturally crank the bass for every mix…but this “mixing wrong to be right” shit is for the birds. Yeah but freelancers have been doing it for years! Your Trinnov adventure has me looking at the Mini DSP / Dirac options almost daily. Damn you Mister Kennedy 😁
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Post by ericn on Apr 13, 2024 17:45:58 GMT -6
Exactly the way I set it up… 500 racks above filled with preamps and eq. Only used for tracking, all mixing ITB. If that Daking was set up to line up with a 500 series rack and was 2 chassis so you could lay it out like a console it would be awesome. Well okay some bussing options would be cool but still that thing is sick.
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Post by ericn on Apr 13, 2024 17:42:52 GMT -6
Hey thanks to everyone for your feedback and all the PMs. Just to clarify, I am more looking for something conducive to a tracking workflow than a summing mixer. I would probably still mix ITB with HW inserts, unless its something I needed to yank back a fader for. Having pres and EQs, which is what I would pop in the 500 slots, in the same spot at my finger tips, between the monitors is primarily why I am considering this route. I've worked at many spots that have amazing racks of gear that are spread around the room and its never the same as just having it all, right there, between the speakers. API Box II (I've nearly bought one... twice) is really kind of an overgrown summing mixer. Closer to that then a proper tracking desk IMO. Only 8 preamps... the other 16 channels are more or less line/tape returns with no outputs. Like a big jukebox. There's also no real bussing/summing options for tracking... Blend close hat & ride mics into the overheads and print all 4 mics to a stereo pair? Hang 3 mics on a guitar cab and blend into one track? Nope! Great sounding desks. Real deal API tone if that's what 'ya want. Yes there's talkback and a legit center section, but the routing? Take another look. Good look and see if its got what 'ya need. Because it may not. Its not a 24x8 desk. More like 24x2. On that line the SSL XL desk does offer a bit more in terms of routing... What's that Neve desk? They also have one around the 25k mark IIRC? Also heard lots of good things about the new Trident 78/88 desks and those are more like a traditional console. I have to agree, I would rather a pair of old 8200’s and a pair of 7600 strips better routing. The box just seams like someone spent more time trying to design something that wouldn’t hurt 1608 sales rather than a really useful mixer.
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Post by ericn on Apr 13, 2024 13:37:51 GMT -6
The Amp requirements make me a bit nervous, So even in single amp mode these need a DSP profile? 3 ohms I know it’s a nominal rating but guys what that tells me is it’s really a 2 ohm load all over the place, but the lower the impendance the more current your going to draw at wattage. No limiter or no warranty, not a problem we have racks of amps that fit the bill in the live rig, non of the amps that end up on monitors here are going to have limiters, are they that fragile? If I really need a specific amp. Package it and call it an active system. They want to get bass out of a 5” woofer and need to limit that coax assembly. Genelec limits the crap out of their coaxial mid/tweeter assembly. I know things are just simpler if you start with decent drivers!
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Post by ericn on Apr 13, 2024 8:57:24 GMT -6
The Amp requirements make me a bit nervous, So even in single amp mode these need a DSP profile? 3 ohms I know it’s a nominal rating but guys what that tells me is it’s really a 2 ohm load all over the place, but the lower the impendance the more current your going to draw at wattage. No limiter or no warranty, not a problem we have racks of amps that fit the bill in the live rig, non of the amps that end up on monitors here are going to have limiters, are they that fragile?
If I really need a specific amp. Package it and call it an active system.
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ilok death
Apr 12, 2024 17:38:10 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by ericn on Apr 12, 2024 17:38:10 GMT -6
Oh the trials and tribulations of the iLok, always keep an extra hidden away in a drawer because no matter what kind of sacrifice you make to the ILok gods it’s going to go down at some point, hell even in my pimp days it was “ buy a backup with it, it’s not like the shipping is going to be any more with 2.” But what benefit do you get from having a second kicking around? I didn’t think most developers allowed you two installs? I guess some do? They don’t it’s just always been speedier to have one on hand and have pace transfer rather than wait for one to show up😁
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Post by ericn on Apr 12, 2024 16:41:56 GMT -6
I got my Audix Club Kit in today. Mine came with a sticker and 2 drum dots instead of a mug. I also received an Eastman E2OM acoustic guitar. I’ve been thinking about an OM-sized acoustic for a while, and read some good things out this model. I got mine today and no mug either. I got the T-shirt, sticker, lanyard, and 2 drum dots (sample pack). I'll use the shirt and the dots. and of course the mics, but I still find it funny they don't put serial numbers on the D6's yet (the others have laser engraved serial #'s) Email Cliff at Audix, they were always generous with the swag & easy going as well.
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Post by ericn on Apr 12, 2024 16:34:56 GMT -6
Oh the trials and tribulations of the iLok, always keep an extra hidden away in a drawer because no matter what kind of sacrifice you make to the ILok gods it’s going to go down at some point, hell even in my pimp days it was “ buy a backup with it, it’s not like the shipping is going to be any more with 2.”
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Apr 12, 2024 16:30:55 GMT -6
Glad you like it, sorry about your neighbor.
The thing about these mods is every time I sit with someone like Savart, who has designed converters or interfaces it’s always “ this isn’t rocket surgery, most of these mods are really for the most part building it the way the original prototype was built. It’s all about how do we hit the price point??” As a consumer it kind of sucks and knowing guys who have been part of the design teams of some of our favorite manufacturers and some our favorite targets to slag, I know its absolutely true.
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