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Post by Quint on Jul 12, 2022 8:30:02 GMT -6
That's one thing that kind of gives me pause about these sort of hardware boxes. You spend all of this time settling on what you want for your main mix DA conversion and then you potentially end up running it through a second round of conversion that you may not be so happy with, regardless of the nice functionality that said hardware box may bring to the table. I like the idea of these boxes, but it does make you wonder. I had assumed that the Dirac probably had pretty good conversion, so this is a little surprising to hear, but it's good to know. At least you can purchase the software independently and use it on your own computer. That said, the ability to let the box just do it's thing in the background, without having to worry about cpu and things, is not without it's worth. I Agree 100% but let’s not forget if your active monitors use DSP there is no way to bypass or choose your converters. Conversion associated with DSP-based monitors is definitely something I've thought about. Thus far in my testing of the Lyd 48s, I don't feel like I'm noticing any negative impact, though it would probably be hard to make an objective comparison because my current non-DSP monitors are otherwise an inferior monitor. There's too many variables to make an objective conclusion on the direct impact of any conversion on the whole thing.
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Post by Quint on Jul 12, 2022 7:52:06 GMT -6
Is that the conversion guts of a Digi002 inside the the MiniDSP or something? No they just sound that bad! I like the box without conversion, almost bought the 8 ch and a Mytek to use for prototyping and tuning. That's one thing that kind of gives me pause about these sort of hardware boxes. You spend all of this time settling on what you want for your main mix DA conversion and then you potentially end up running it through a second round of conversion that you may not be so happy with, regardless of the nice functionality that said hardware box may bring to the table. I like the idea of these boxes, but it does make you wonder. I had assumed that the Dirac probably had pretty good conversion, so this is a little surprising to hear, but it's good to know. At least you can purchase the software independently and use it on your own computer. That said, the ability to let the box just do it's thing in the background, without having to worry about cpu and things, is not without it's worth.
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Post by Quint on Jul 12, 2022 6:20:03 GMT -6
That’s interesting so it’s basically a rack mount computer that runs their proprietary OS. Wonder how it compares to some of the Mini DSP options with Dirac. Love the Dirac software, the conversion in the MiniDSP sucks, I mean digi002 sucks. Is that the conversion guts of a Digi002 inside the the MiniDSP or something?
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Post by Quint on Jul 11, 2022 17:29:26 GMT -6
So I haven't had a chance to even plug the Neumann's in yet, but I'm already really liking these Lyds. They're very familiar sounding to me, as my current monitors are also Dynaudio, but everything is just ...better...
I like. The Neumann's definitely have some competition. We'll see how those sound next.
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Post by Quint on Jul 11, 2022 8:32:41 GMT -6
John, which Trinnov did you get? There seems to be a bunch of different options.
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Post by Quint on Jul 8, 2022 12:08:30 GMT -6
Ditto, I was about to say something similar. Not that I'm sure the Burls don't sound great, but I imagine a big part of that is due to the transformers and what not. I have a 2192 (also designed by Rich Williams of Burl) that I also prefer to my Apollo, but I similarly attribute most of what I like about it to the surrounding electronics and not so much the conversion itself. I mean, the 2192 is how old now? I'm not still using it because I think it's on the current (2022) bleeding edge of conversion. I just like the sound. I've had long talks with Rich about how he designs his converters. According to him it's not just the transformers, the analog circuit or the actual converter chips. It's all of it together. The whole being greater than the sum of the parts as it were. Transformers are not just color boxes - they perform important functions within the circuit. Each detail of the design affects every other detail. The choice of anti-aliasing filter type interacts with the choice of what transistors he uses, as just one small example. He spends many hours listening to different combinations of elements until he finds his sound. When a certain chip, transistor or some component becomes unavailable, it's a big headache to find a replacement. This is why putting some nice analog hardware in front of another converter doesn't do the same thing as using a Burl. Not that it doesn't sound good, but it's not the same thing. Take it from me, as I spent many years doing just that before Burl came along. Now I use the analog hardware and the Burls together and couldn't be happier. The Burls preserve more of what I like about the analog sound. 'Can't separate the front end from the conversion as they're all part of the "gestalt". That tracks more or less with what I've read, and I'm sure that's part of the reason I like my 2192.
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Post by Quint on Jul 8, 2022 10:02:11 GMT -6
No desire to argue about it. I’ll just say I disagree based on my experience in the industry. most of the debate is political in nature and has little to do with better reliability or lower prices on either side. 👍 Yeah, I don't want to get into a protracted argument either. 👍
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Post by Quint on Jul 8, 2022 9:36:31 GMT -6
again no. largest share of blame is in weather. cant run a power plant when you can't get fuel. wind turbines and gas producing wells froze up just like power plants. Oh, I wasn't saying that wind and basically everything else didn't fail too. I was just saying that it was disingenuous for Abbott and others to try to create this narrative of "if only we hadn't been relying on renewables...." that they tried to do, as if everything that wasn't winterized didn't also fail. As for the weather, we'll have to agree to disagree on that. The weather is getting more erratic due to global warming and we're seeing a higher number of these extreme weather events as a result. The Texas PUC (so we're not talking about the Feds here) recommended things to harden against this sort of event a decade ago, but these recommendations weren't followed. As for higher prices, I am more than fine with that if it means we have a more reliable grid. Let's also not forget that, though the prices we pay are theoretically cheaper than what we might pay if the cost of winterization, etc. were built into the prices, the prices shot up through the roof (100s of times more per kWh) when rates increased as a result of demand, so I'd say that the "cheaper prices" argument doesn't hold water when cheaper everyday prices are basically subsidized by momentary extreme pricing. We're still paying for it one way or another. Depending on which side of the equation one is, this bug might be considered a feature, but I for one am in the bug camp. The prices shot so high that it bankrupted some local/regional electricity providers. There is something very wrong with a system set up like that, and especially when it's a system that provides something every single one of us needs.
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Post by Quint on Jul 7, 2022 14:20:06 GMT -6
I'm all for self sufficiency, but it often takes money to make that happen, and the people who tended to be the most adversely effected (as is usually the case in these kinds of situations) by that winter storm were the kind of people who couldn't afford a backup generator even if they wanted one or, in many cases, don't even own a home in which they could install a backup generator because, again, they can't afford one. But Lyd vs KH310. Go! Ok. As for the Lyd48, I've never used them. However, based on some of the statements in the thread, I'd be very interested in seeing how my ears would perceive them for the first time after having used the KH310s for a while. I would also be interested in a comparison of my thoughts to someone who's used the Lyd48's for a while and how they perceive the KH310s for the first time. I think it would probably come down to small details. I'll admit though, due to my inherent appreciation for waveguides, dome mids, and seal boxes I don't think I'd be wow'd by the Lyd48s. Then again, I expected to like the Barefoot 01's and ended up greatly disliking them. Ha. I was mostly being facetious about the monitor discussion, as we're already talking about it in that other thread. In any case, I have the Lyd 48s and the KH310s arriving here next week, so I'm looking forward to comparing them in person over a week or two before I send the pair back that doesn't win the shootout.
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Post by Quint on Jul 7, 2022 14:01:44 GMT -6
I don't, though the idea has been discussed for when we remodel our house. Solar is also being discussed. Though I'm not sure where you're headed with this, I suppose I'd ask you the same? Generator? Solar? I will also add that I wasn't necessarily looking to rehash this discussion, as it's been discussed here at RGO before, and I know you and I and others had differing opinions on the subject. Bottom line, I've just seen too many examples of this laissez faire approach to the market result in benefits to corporations and the wealthy at the expense of the rest of us. You're just not gonna convince me that there don't need to be guardrails in place. I'm a capitalist, but there needs to be rules and regulations. In any case, I have more pressing things to discuss with you, like new monitors. So I'm bowing out of this particular discussion. Well, I'm thinking of a backup generator for myself. One of those tropical storms came up through the gulf and knocked my power out for 5 days. Would have been nice to have some power, but thankfully it was in fall so it wasn't uncomfortable, but it got me thinking about being a lot more self-sufficient. I also wondered if folks (not you in particular) who have claimed texas should have had windmill heaters (not installed because, you know, texas..) and tons of backup systems for a thousand-year storm and a once-in-a-lifetime grid failure also have backup systems installed in their own properties. I'm all for self sufficiency, but it often takes money to make that happen, and the people who tended to be the most adversely effected (as is usually the case in these kinds of situations) by that winter storm were the kind of people who couldn't afford a backup generator even if they wanted one or, in many cases, don't even own a home in which they could install a backup generator because, again, they can't afford one. But Lyd vs KH310. Go!
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Post by Quint on Jul 7, 2022 13:38:07 GMT -6
I was simply referring specifically to the penchant in this state to blame renewables when the largest single source of power here is still gas, and those gas facilities failed because of lack of winterization. I just think it's disingenuous of the leaders in this state, who receive heavy campaign contributions from the O&G industry, to try to lay the blame at the feet of renewables, while ignoring that the largest share of any blame lies with gas. An honest question.. Do you have a backup generator installed in your home? I don't, though the idea has been discussed for when we remodel our house. Solar is also being discussed. Though I'm not sure where you're headed with this, I suppose I'd ask you the same? Generator? Solar? I will also add that I wasn't necessarily looking to rehash this discussion, as it's been discussed here at RGO before, and I know you and I and others had differing opinions on the subject. Bottom line, I've just seen too many examples of this laissez faire approach to the market result in benefits to corporations and the wealthy at the expense of the rest of us. You're just not gonna convince me that there don't need to be guardrails in place. I'm a capitalist, but there needs to be rules and regulations. In any case, I have more pressing things to discuss with you, like new monitors. So I'm bowing out of this particular discussion.
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Post by Quint on Jul 7, 2022 13:12:07 GMT -6
I've read similar things and it sort of makes me wonder about the low end of the Neumann's. I guess we'll see once I'm able to put both the 310s and LYDs to the test. It's tight. There's no port bloom happening. They might sound a little lacking in bass when compared to something else, but I have yet to have any issues with low end at all. I stopped using my sub with the KH310s because the sub was starting to make me mix too little bass into my mixes. The bass in these has nuance, unlike a lot of other speakers which just have "bass". I've only ever used ported monitors, so I've been curious about how I might intially perceive a sealed cab. I've felt like I can mix a little too bass heavy at times, so I'm curious to see how it goes.
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Post by Quint on Jul 7, 2022 13:06:27 GMT -6
Texas "exceptionalism".... Haha No lessons were learned after Snowpocalypse 2021. It's totally going to happen again, at which point it will incorrectly be blamed on renewable energy again. 1. Renewables have peak energy times. Generally only about 20-30% of the day. 2. Federal subsidies given to power generation companies create an imbalance in profitability so any company which desires to stay in business ends up taking federal subsidies. 3. Federal subsidies are only for renewable infrastructure so fewer and fewer 100% uptime generation facilities are built and/or maintained. 4. There were fewer gas/coal plants online due to maintaining significant renewable uptime to appease federal subsidy regulators. 5. A thousand year ice storm hit and knocked out main transmission lines. 6. Solar generation was 0% due to snow and ice. 7. Wind generation was 0% due to snow and ice. 8. Gas and coal generation came back online within hours but the transmission lines being down there was no way to get the power to the customers. The failure was not in renewables entirely. The failure is the federal government yet again subsidizing something that causes market turmoil and me-too choices among competition, which removes competition and steers markets away from self-sufficiency towards political pork. Texas may be "unregulated" but they are regulated. I was simply referring specifically to the penchant in this state to blame renewables when the largest single source of power here is still gas, and those gas facilities failed because of lack of winterization. I just think it's disingenuous of the leaders in this state, who receive heavy campaign contributions from the O&G industry, to try to lay the blame at the feet of renewables, while ignoring that the largest share of any blame lies with gas.
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Post by Quint on Jul 7, 2022 11:36:39 GMT -6
I hear you on the DSP. What about the rest of my post? Dome mids? I value your opinion. I am hesitant to say Dome or cone being better, there are domes I like and for the $ that Dynaudio copy KH uses is a great driver, it’s not a ATC or Volt but that thing is one of the most consistent sample to sample and you will find it in some very expensive speakers, for example the $12K induction dynamics that I literally go hug once a month because I dearly miss their shop manager and my friend Brian. ( Named my new live sub Woofers after his dog Bronco). Domes are a bit trickier to work with the response is useally shaped like a bump where a cone is more often a flatter plateau, but I in general prefer the tonal quality of a dome. Most domes are lighter and seam faster. In general my preference would be for either an a electrostatic , or line source ribbon or Planer, but neither is practical in a studio monitor physically and present a difficult load. OK the Magnepans are a purely resistive load but like the electrostatics inefficient as hell. Speaking in very general terms domes are pretty efficient, most of the better cone mids require 2 to approach the efficiency of a dome. This is where it gets tricky because if you need 2 per cabinet you ideally need 4 with the same response. I don’t really know the Mid Dynaudio is using but Danny (shadow) seams impressed and based on our conversations I have a pretty good idea of his preferences and would endorse a good listen. Now this is where the idea of making a generalization about a drive by type gets you in trouble, in general I would say compression drivers are a major compromise, but then there are the TAD and even the Radian Beryllium diaphragm drivers you can’t have a conversation about the best HF drivers without the TADs ( OK JK maybe the fact that I own 2 very different but still both in the conversation of Best HF drivers out there in house). If those Dynaudios use a variant of the ESOTAR they belong in that conversation. I hope that helps. I will add I personally prefer class A and AB over class D, so the KH have that, but again being the total hypocrite I have 5.4 KW of class H with switching power supplies sitting in the same house as my favorite Class A amp, so call me a living contradiction. I didn't realize that that was a Dyn copy used in the KH310?
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Post by Quint on Jul 7, 2022 11:32:29 GMT -6
Quint: I really like domes, too, and I love the mid dome on the 310s. But just as big of a deal to me is that the 310 is the first sealed cabinet I’ve owned, and it turns out I really, really like not having a port. I still think you should try to listen to both the LYD48s and the KH310s in your space if you can swing it. I suspect that would make your decision a lot easier, whether one way or the other. The performance of sealed is addictive, but look at the roll off to see if it is that gentle rounded curve or steeper, if it’s steep they are using EQ. As a builder it is a bit easier to tune out a bit of driver miss match buy tuning the port length. I can’t say either is subjectively better, but I prefer ports, but then I want more lowend. Now anyone know someone with a bunch of 18mm Baltic Birch plywood in stock? I've read similar things and it sort of makes me wonder about the low end of the Neumann's. I guess we'll see once I'm able to put both the 310s and LYDs to the test.
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Post by Quint on Jul 7, 2022 10:51:23 GMT -6
I live just outside of Dallas. Texas exceptionalism requires the state’s power grid to be independently held together with bailing wire, paper clips, and bobby pins. It is subject to fail at any time. Texas "exceptionalism".... Haha No lessons were learned after Snowpocalypse 2021. It's totally going to happen again, at which point it will incorrectly be blamed on renewable energy again.
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Post by Quint on Jul 7, 2022 10:07:13 GMT -6
Quint: I really like domes, too, and I love the mid dome on the 310s. But just as big of a deal to me is that the 310 is the first sealed cabinet I’ve owned, and it turns out I really, really like not having a port. I still think you should try to listen to both the LYD48s and the KH310s in your space if you can swing it. I suspect that would make your decision a lot easier, whether one way or the other. The sealed cabinet interested me too. It's also one of the reasons I was considering the Neumann. As for getting them both in house, I actually just ordered both. I'll return whichever pair I like less and then that'll be that. That being said, all of the discussion has still been pretty useful to helping me narrow it down and to get to the point where I know what I'm going to be specifically looking for when I make the comparisons.
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Post by Quint on Jul 6, 2022 17:56:49 GMT -6
I don't believe the kh310s have DSP. I don't know that I would say my room is "great" though it is pretty well treated (see the description of my room in my previous post in this thread). So I suppose I still might prefer the 310 for that reason, if the 310 is going to be more forgiving in my not perfect room. What got me going on all of this was your comments about the dome mids. What do you like about done mids in general, versus something like the mid cone drive in the Lyd? This topic interests me just because I know how much I like dome tweeters, so it intrigued me to know more about dome mids and I why I might end up potentially preferring them to a mid cone drive. At this point I assume any active system that doesn’t state it isn’t using DSP is as a designer I respect in the consumer world said the other day it’s just to easy, why wouldn’t you? And it is you can get a respectable sounding box dive into the DSP and make it better without all the prototype a home theater box I was helping a guy with went through 20 crossover revisions, the guys latest with cheap plate amps we tuned in 4 days and could simply plug a memory stick in and compare any of the revisions. Plus your not looking at parts of the filters interacting with other parts. I hear you on the DSP. What about the rest of my post? Dome mids? I value your opinion.
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Post by Quint on Jul 6, 2022 17:38:31 GMT -6
The Burl DA doesn’t have transformers Is it the DA or AD that is drawing you to Burl? Or both? I still fancy the idea of one day getting a Mother ship, so I totally get it.
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Post by Quint on Jul 6, 2022 17:37:00 GMT -6
Just curious, how big is your room? Also remember power measurements are useless if you don’t know the efficiency of the drivers! Agreed. I know that the wattage on the Dyn Core series is substantially higher than that in the Lyds, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the Core series is louder by double or triple or anything like that.
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Post by Quint on Jul 6, 2022 17:33:39 GMT -6
Got it. As I looked more at the 310, I was kind of wondering if the slight recess on the mid dome was in fact a wave guide. I'm leaning slightly more towards the 310 at this point, over the Lyd 48, but I'm still kind of wondering about total available volume between these two options. To be more specific, I guess I mean total volume available before things begin to noticeably distort. I know the Lyd does have an option to engage a switch which lowers the overall volume to preserve undistorted bass volume, relative to overall volume. But that, of course, lowers the total volume available, and I do have a somewhat large room (24x30). The 310 has more wattage than the Lyd, not that that is an automatic indicator of it also being louder. Class D amps are also supposed to be more efficient than AB, so that also makes it difficult to try to make a comparison, as the Lyd I'd class D and the 310 is Class AB. [br Yeah I was mistaken that the LyDs do in fact use a cone mid there is a slight wave guide. 310s can be used either way and I’m going to bet the alignment is via both position and DSP. I really would like to spend some time with the Dyns but nobody here seams to have a pair and I don’t know anyone at Dynaudio these days, the way I’m hearing it from those who know both is really this Great room Dynaudio, troublesome room KH. As far as DSP vs physical alignment ideal physical, but if your going to have DSP anyway might as well use it for alignment. Plus DSP will let you smooth out the phase response of the driver physical means your aligned at the crossover point only you have to look at the actual phase response. DSP also means you can get a fairly even phase response and steeper crossover slopes ( playing with phase aligned 48 db per octave slopes in the BSS minidrive with The PAS 12in coax and the radian 12in coax with a 2in compression driver is really fun. Of course the obvious trade off with DSP you have to find DSP with conversion you like, I can’t afford a Lake and a rack full of Mytek but if I could I would. Next week I might just try bring in the PA rack and play with Questeds Omnidrive and 5.4KW of Stewart ( blows my mind still that I can run this rack flat out off of 20 amps 120!) I don't believe the kh310s have DSP. I don't know that I would say my room is "great" though it is pretty well treated (see the description of my room in my previous post in this thread). So I suppose I still might prefer the 310 for that reason, if the 310 is going to be more forgiving in my not perfect room. What got me going on all of this was your comments about the dome mids. What do you like about dome mids in general, versus something like the mid cone drive in the Lyd? This topic interests me just because I know how much I like dome tweeters, so it intrigued me to know more about dome mids and I why I might end up potentially preferring them to a mid cone drive.
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Post by Quint on Jul 6, 2022 17:27:44 GMT -6
Got it. As I looked more at the 310, I was kind of wondering if the slight recess on the mid dome was in fact a wave guide. I'm leaning slightly more towards the 310 at this point, over the Lyd 48, but I'm still kind of wondering about total available volume between these two options. To be more specific, I guess I mean total volume available before things begin to noticeably distort. I know the Lyd does have an option to engage a switch which lowers the overall volume to preserve undistorted bass volume, relative to overall volume. But that, of course, lowers the total volume available, and I do have a somewhat large room (24x30). The 310 has more wattage than the Lyd, not that that is an automatic indicator of it also being louder. Class D amps are also supposed to be more efficient than AB, so that also makes it difficult to try to make a comparison, as the Lyd I'd class D and the 310 is Class AB. I've never turned my KH310D's up louder than normal-high listening volume so I can't say if they distort or not at even higher levels. Just curious, how big is your room?
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Post by Quint on Jul 6, 2022 17:26:56 GMT -6
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Post by Quint on Jul 6, 2022 17:25:17 GMT -6
That I don’t have it lol. Just borrowed a B2 DAC…think it’s old though so first gen opamps. But it’s definitely a wider soundstage/better separation which is shocking to me. Punchier. More 3D. All the cliches. I mean, it’s not huge huge, but the Convert sounds “flatter” as far as soundstage. The Burl does sound more center mid focused which makes me a tad nervous. Hey John hit up Matt at Ironage and see if he has one of his transformer boxes, you might get close enough to the Burl mojo with the convert or even closer to what you want. Ditto, I was about to say something similar. Not that I'm sure the Burls don't sound great, but I imagine a big part of that is due to the transformers and what not. I have a 2192 (also designed by Rich Williams of Burl) that I also prefer to my Apollo, but I similarly attribute most of what I like about it to the surrounding electronics and not so much the conversion itself. I mean, the 2192 is how old now? I'm not still using it because I think it's on the current (2022) bleeding edge of conversion. I just like the sound.
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Post by Quint on Jul 6, 2022 15:33:55 GMT -6
I might have to demo Envolution. Though it might be a little too tweaky for my liking. The simplicity of a two knob affair like the transient designer is part of the appeal. I do sort of like the ability to do a little eqing, such as that that the Softube Transient Shaper or Boz Transgressor provides. Maybe I'll like the Envolution after I give it a try. Are there default sort of settings that one can just leave the rest of the knobs on and then just use the two main transient/sustain knobs like you would with a more traditional transient designer? Try Sonnox Oxford Transmod then for simplicity. Transmod seemed like it might be the more complicated one?
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