|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Jul 6, 2022 9:30:04 GMT -6
So I’m thinking about buying one and going this route, but I’m being told I’ll need an interface with 4x4 AES connectivity. I guess I could also go for something with Dante connectivity…but I wanted to keep the cost down because it’s basically just a dongle to connect the b16 to the computer.
My guy mentioned the RME stuff. Any suggestions there? I’m kindve bummed I’ve got to lose the Apollo and learn another interface matrix. Might stop me from doing it.
|
|
|
|
Post by trakworxmastering on Jul 6, 2022 9:41:41 GMT -6
www.burlaudio.com/contactDo yourself a favor and just ask the Burl folks the best way to go given your setup. They're great people over there and they'll know better than anyone. (831) 425-7501
|
|
|
|
Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 6, 2022 9:56:01 GMT -6
I'm gonna try the Black Lion Audio mod. Hopefully I'll be happier with the Apollo and won't lust for a Symphony or a Burl type setup for a long time.
I'll let you know how it goes once I get it back. Maybe you won't have to change and just need the mod?
To be continued..
|
|
|
|
Post by Quint on Jul 6, 2022 10:55:39 GMT -6
So I’m thinking about buying one and going this route, but I’m being told I’ll need an interface with 4x4 AES connectivity. I guess I could also go for something with Dante connectivity…but I wanted to keep the cost down because it’s basically just a dongle to connect the b16 to the computer. My guy mentioned the RME stuff. Any suggestions there? I’m kindve bummed I’ve got to lose the Apollo and learn another interface matrix. Might stop me from doing it. I thought you were liking the whole Luna thing? Though if you wanted to stay on Apollo/Luna, I suppose you could sell your Apollo x6 and just pick up an older Apollo on the cheap to use as a simple way get 8 channels of Burl into and out of Luna. Though you'd need an AES to ADAT format converter too. I'm perfectly happy with the sound of my x16, though I do use a 2192 via AES as well. However, were I committed to the idea of going multichannel Burl, I'd probably be simultaneously going HDX if I still needed a DSP based workflow. |
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Jul 6, 2022 11:23:59 GMT -6
So I’m thinking about buying one and going this route, but I’m being told I’ll need an interface with 4x4 AES connectivity. I guess I could also go for something with Dante connectivity…but I wanted to keep the cost down because it’s basically just a dongle to connect the b16 to the computer. My guy mentioned the RME stuff. Any suggestions there? I’m kindve bummed I’ve got to lose the Apollo and learn another interface matrix. Might stop me from doing it. I thought you were liking the whole Luna thing? Though if you wanted to stay on Apollo/Luna, I suppose you could sell your Apollo x6 and just pick up an older Apollo on the cheap to use as a simple way get 8 channels of Burl into and out of Luna. Though you'd need an AES to ADAT format converter too. I'm perfectly happy with the sound of my x16, though I do use a 2192 via AES as well. However, were I committed to the idea of going multichannel Burl, I'd probably be simultaneously going HDX if I still needed a DSP based workflow. Yeah it’s cool. But I don’t use it for 95% of what I do. I thought I could get maybe an older Apollo 16 with aes…but the monkey wrench was the 4x4. I thought AES was 8 channels period. Anyway - might just not be worth the trouble. As for the Hosa spdif to aes, it’s doing conversion…so is that a bottleneck? No idea. |
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,017 
Member is Online
|
Post by ericn on Jul 6, 2022 12:31:19 GMT -6
RME or Lynx card in a OWC chassis? If you were to go with a Chassis with an extra slot could always add a UAD card.
|
|
|
|
Post by jeremygillespie on Jul 6, 2022 14:59:22 GMT -6
FWIW I absolutely despise the RME mixer window thing. It’s the biggest drawback to any of their systems.
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,017
Member is Online
|
Post by ericn on Jul 6, 2022 15:56:37 GMT -6
FWIW I absolutely despise the RME mixer window thing. It’s the biggest drawback to any of their systems. Yeah total mix = total shit show, but for most it’s set and forget and back up. OK my PTHD days make me wonder why we can’t just set an industry standard so we don’t need a separate program for every manufacturers interface and build it into the DAW like PTHD! |
|
|
|
Post by wiz on Jul 6, 2022 16:14:26 GMT -6
FWIW I absolutely despise the RME mixer window thing. It’s the biggest drawback to any of their systems. Yeah total mix = total shit show, but for most it’s set and forget and back up. OK my PTHD days make me wonder why we can’t just set an industry standard so we don’t need a separate program for every manufacturers interface and build it into the DAW like PTHD! Aaaarghhh total mix Aaaargh Motu mixer whats the big draw to head to the B16 Johnkenn ? cheers Wiz |
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Jul 6, 2022 17:09:16 GMT -6
Yeah total mix = total shit show, but for most it’s set and forget and back up. OK my PTHD days make me wonder why we can’t just set an industry standard so we don’t need a separate program for every manufacturers interface and build it into the DAW like PTHD! Aaaarghhh total mix Aaaargh Motu mixer whats the big draw to head to the B16 Johnkenn ? cheers Wiz That I don’t have it lol. Just borrowed a B2 DAC…think it’s old though so first gen opamps. But it’s definitely a wider soundstage/better separation which is shocking to me. Punchier. More 3D. All the cliches. I mean, it’s not huge huge, but the Convert sounds “flatter” as far as soundstage. The Burl does sound more center mid focused which makes me a tad nervous. |
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,017
Member is Online
|
Post by ericn on Jul 6, 2022 17:17:33 GMT -6
Aaaarghhh total mix Aaaargh Motu mixer whats the big draw to head to the B16 Johnkenn ? cheers Wiz That I don’t have it lol. Just borrowed a B2 DAC…think it’s old though so first gen opamps. But it’s definitely a wider soundstage/better separation which is shocking to me. Punchier. More 3D. All the cliches. I mean, it’s not huge huge, but the Convert sounds “flatter” as far as soundstage. The Burl does sound more center mid focused which makes me a tad nervous. Hey John hit up Matt at Ironage and see if he has one of his transformer boxes, you might get close enough to the Burl mojo with the convert or even closer to what you want. |
|
|
|
Post by Quint on Jul 6, 2022 17:25:17 GMT -6
That I don’t have it lol. Just borrowed a B2 DAC…think it’s old though so first gen opamps. But it’s definitely a wider soundstage/better separation which is shocking to me. Punchier. More 3D. All the cliches. I mean, it’s not huge huge, but the Convert sounds “flatter” as far as soundstage. The Burl does sound more center mid focused which makes me a tad nervous. Hey John hit up Matt at Ironage and see if he has one of his transformer boxes, you might get close enough to the Burl mojo with the convert or even closer to what you want. Ditto, I was about to say something similar. Not that I'm sure the Burls don't sound great, but I imagine a big part of that is due to the transformers and what not. I have a 2192 (also designed by Rich Williams of Burl) that I also prefer to my Apollo, but I similarly attribute most of what I like about it to the surrounding electronics and not so much the conversion itself. I mean, the 2192 is how old now? I'm not still using it because I think it's on the current (2022) bleeding edge of conversion. I just like the sound. |
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,017
Member is Online
|
Post by ericn on Jul 6, 2022 17:31:22 GMT -6
Hey John hit up Matt at Ironage and see if he has one of his transformer boxes, you might get close enough to the Burl mojo with the convert or even closer to what you want. Ditto, I was about to say something similar. Not that I'm sure the Burls don't sound great, but I imagine a big part of that is due to the transformers and what not. I have a 2192 (also designed by Rich Williams of Burl) that I also prefer to my Apollo, but I similarly attribute most of what I like about it to the surrounding electronics and not so much the conversion itself. I mean, the 2192 is how old now? I'm not still using it because I think it's on the current (2022) bleeding edge of conversion. I just like the sound. I’ll admit to putting a couple of Ch of Dan Alexander Neve Clone in front of the RADAR just for the sound of that old iron. |
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Jul 6, 2022 17:36:29 GMT -6
The Burl DA doesn’t have transformers
|
|
|
|
Post by Quint on Jul 6, 2022 17:38:31 GMT -6
The Burl DA doesn’t have transformers Is it the DA or AD that is drawing you to Burl? Or both? I still fancy the idea of one day getting a Mother ship, so I totally get it. |
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Jul 6, 2022 17:54:32 GMT -6
The Burl DA doesn’t have transformers Is it the DA or AD that is drawing you to Burl? Or both? I still fancy the idea of one day getting a Mother ship, so I totally get it. The sound. When I got the AD again I really liked it a ton. Then I clicked the concert with it and thought it made it sound better. That’s debatable. Now listening, it’s definitely different and objectively wider and punchier |
|
|
|
Post by wiz on Jul 6, 2022 18:24:42 GMT -6
Is it the DA or AD that is drawing you to Burl? Or both? I still fancy the idea of one day getting a Mother ship, so I totally get it. The sound. When I got the AD again I really liked it a ton. Then I clicked the concert with it and thought it made it sound better. That’s debatable. Now listening, it’s definitely different and objectively wider and punchier Out of interest.... quickly try the IMAGER plug in in Ozone ....I like that and use a smidge.... The SSL Fusion plug in is very very good. cheers Wiz |
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Jul 6, 2022 18:27:40 GMT -6
The sound. When I got the AD again I really liked it a ton. Then I clicked the concert with it and thought it made it sound better. That’s debatable. Now listening, it’s definitely different and objectively wider and punchier Out of interest.... quickly try the IMAGER plug in in Ozone ....I like that and use a smidge.... The SSL Fusion plug in is very very good. cheers Wiz I usually use the Elysia M/S EQ and Manley VariMu M/S to spread things out. |
|
|
|
Post by trakworxmastering on Jul 7, 2022 9:22:40 GMT -6
Hey John hit up Matt at Ironage and see if he has one of his transformer boxes, you might get close enough to the Burl mojo with the convert or even closer to what you want. Ditto, I was about to say something similar. Not that I'm sure the Burls don't sound great, but I imagine a big part of that is due to the transformers and what not. I have a 2192 (also designed by Rich Williams of Burl) that I also prefer to my Apollo, but I similarly attribute most of what I like about it to the surrounding electronics and not so much the conversion itself. I mean, the 2192 is how old now? I'm not still using it because I think it's on the current (2022) bleeding edge of conversion. I just like the sound. I've had long talks with Rich about how he designs his converters. According to him it's not just the transformers, the analog circuit or the actual converter chips. It's all of it together. The whole being greater than the sum of the parts as it were. Transformers are not just color boxes - they perform important functions within the circuit. Each detail of the design affects every other detail. The choice of anti-aliasing filter type interacts with the choice of what transistors he uses, as just one small example. He spends many hours listening to different combinations of elements until he finds his sound. When a certain chip, transistor or some component becomes unavailable, it's a big headache to find a replacement. This is why putting some nice analog hardware in front of another converter doesn't do the same thing as using a Burl. Not that it doesn't sound good, but it's not the same thing. Take it from me, as I spent many years doing just that before Burl came along. Now I use the analog hardware and the Burls together and couldn't be happier. The Burls preserve more of what I like about the analog sound. 'Can't separate the front end from the conversion as they're all part of the "gestalt". |
|
|
|
Post by christopher on Jul 7, 2022 10:29:15 GMT -6
RME is bulletproof and lasts a long time. Total mix is amazing but it takes about 2 years to figure out how to use it, 5 years to realize how goddam incredible it is: you’ll only discover this when you try to use other brand’s solutions and realize holy shit I WISH I had total mix. RME and total mix seems to always work even when nothing else does, so it’s amazing for troubleshooting all kinds of weird issues. For that I’ll probably always keep at least a cheap RME thing around.
However the RME sound is just too voiced for super clarity and accurate and just yawn. It’s a double edged sword, I love the clarity but then I fight it too. Its like it’s always wearing a button up shirt and dress shoes, and it can suck the fun away from stuff sometimes. There are better sounding options that will sound closer to “finished” immediately and that’s what I’ll want in my next converters. Metric and burl come to mind. Lavry. Antelope sound awesome but they have burned so many users by poor support.
|
|
|
|
Post by sirthought on Jul 8, 2022 11:52:45 GMT -6
So John, I'd be curious what solution you might find to use the Burl and keep the Apollo. I am kind of confused why Burl only offers the four options they do now.
|
|
|
|
Post by Quint on Jul 8, 2022 12:08:30 GMT -6
Ditto, I was about to say something similar. Not that I'm sure the Burls don't sound great, but I imagine a big part of that is due to the transformers and what not. I have a 2192 (also designed by Rich Williams of Burl) that I also prefer to my Apollo, but I similarly attribute most of what I like about it to the surrounding electronics and not so much the conversion itself. I mean, the 2192 is how old now? I'm not still using it because I think it's on the current (2022) bleeding edge of conversion. I just like the sound. I've had long talks with Rich about how he designs his converters. According to him it's not just the transformers, the analog circuit or the actual converter chips. It's all of it together. The whole being greater than the sum of the parts as it were. Transformers are not just color boxes - they perform important functions within the circuit. Each detail of the design affects every other detail. The choice of anti-aliasing filter type interacts with the choice of what transistors he uses, as just one small example. He spends many hours listening to different combinations of elements until he finds his sound. When a certain chip, transistor or some component becomes unavailable, it's a big headache to find a replacement. This is why putting some nice analog hardware in front of another converter doesn't do the same thing as using a Burl. Not that it doesn't sound good, but it's not the same thing. Take it from me, as I spent many years doing just that before Burl came along. Now I use the analog hardware and the Burls together and couldn't be happier. The Burls preserve more of what I like about the analog sound. 'Can't separate the front end from the conversion as they're all part of the "gestalt". That tracks more or less with what I've read, and I'm sure that's part of the reason I like my 2192. |
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Jul 8, 2022 23:43:33 GMT -6
So John, I'd be curious what solution you might find to use the Burl and keep the Apollo. I am kind of confused why Burl only offers the four options they do now. Not sure I’ll go this route now just because it’s so damn expensive, but just fyi, the Coax spdif to AES cable works perfectly. Maybe my guy was saying you couldn’t do above like 96 or whatever because it takes dual wire (two aes connections). That wouldn’t be an issue for me though. |
|
|
|
Post by sirthought on Jul 9, 2022 13:01:34 GMT -6
So John, I'd be curious what solution you might find to use the Burl and keep the Apollo. I am kind of confused why Burl only offers the four options they do now. Not sure I’ll go this route now just because it’s so damn expensive, but just fyi, the Coax spdif to AES cable works perfectly. Maybe my guy was saying you couldn’t do above like 96 or whatever because it takes dual wire (two aes connections). That wouldn’t be an issue for me though. If you went this route, which Burl units would you have chosen to use? - AES/EBU motherboard - B22 monitor? (Or continue to monitor through Apollo?) - BAD8? Or were you just looking at 2 in and out? |
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Jul 9, 2022 13:52:02 GMT -6
Not sure I’ll go this route now just because it’s so damn expensive, but just fyi, the Coax spdif to AES cable works perfectly. Maybe my guy was saying you couldn’t do above like 96 or whatever because it takes dual wire (two aes connections). That wouldn’t be an issue for me though. If you went this route, which Burl units would you have chosen to use? - AES/EBU motherboard - B22 monitor? (Or continue to monitor through Apollo?) - BAD8? Or were you just looking at 2 in and out? Probably would do the AES/EBU and the BAD4M and BDA4M |
|
