ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,967
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Post by ericn on Oct 27, 2018 16:43:43 GMT -6
I'm no manufacturer, so I don't know where all the potential delays lie, but how is it that so many other manufacturers manage to sell products without these sort of delays? I mean, I get that delays happen to most if not all manufacturers at some point, but not ALL of the time. How is it that Stam manages to have delays every single time? How is it that these delays end up being so long? At some point you would think that they would just build that extra time into their delivery schedule since it's apparently the norm and not the exception. So are the delays because of: 1. Overly optimistic scheduling? 2. A perfect storm of delays that plague Stam like no other company around? 3. Money troubles? 4. A lack of honesty? 5. What? Probably #1, in a world of everybody operating on just in time inventory anything can delay shipment of parts. Most large dealers and manufacturers have spent very large sums on software to predict when to order to meet demand, unfortunately to get any idea of reality you need a history of both. Even then the dumbest things can screw everything up. I will say Josh has a track record of being overly optimistic with delivery dates and should have adjusted accordingly. It’s also hard to make changes in supply chain when margins are tight, a lot of this should be a lesson in some of the reasons why most manufacturers charge what they charge. In the end you really do get what you pay for.
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Post by ragan on Oct 27, 2018 17:48:28 GMT -6
Also, the revenue flow for Stam up until this point has been based on pre-orders. How many people do you think would pre-order something, even a great product at a great price, if they said, "Put your deposit down now...it'll be ready in 11 months"?
I mean, I might still do it. But you wouldn't get the huge feeding frenzy that Stam gets upon announcing a new product if you gave realistic timelines. Way more of us jump onboard when it's always, "Shipping in 6 weeks!" even when we know that ain't gonna happen.
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Post by kcatthedog on Oct 27, 2018 18:04:46 GMT -6
Joshua has said if you want to bail, just email him for full refund, so we do have the option. Must admit I am seriously thinking about it and selling my Kush EQ and buying that new SSL 2 bus box, man, I thought that sounded great and so versatile!
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Post by ragan on Oct 27, 2018 18:10:21 GMT -6
Yeah by all accounts he makes good on the refunds. And he's also offered discounts to people who've had problems with their orders. My buddy who was invoiced months ago for his SA-67 was offered a nice discount on a future Stam product. There was a mass email implying something like that for those of us waiting on MPA1073's too, though no specifics. But he clearly does try to do right by people who've had the stomach to stick it out.
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Post by stam on Oct 27, 2018 18:28:16 GMT -6
All units are shipping
1073, 47, SA2A, SA3A ... it's just a huge list
If somebody wants a refund that's fine, you will be moved to the back of the list and invoiced again when we clear shipments of those who have paid
We never sent invoices unless units were ready to go, we just had bad luck with the last 2/3 units with things (capsules, tubes or other components) failing at the last minute
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Post by matt@IAA on Oct 29, 2018 9:29:17 GMT -6
I don't know quint, but in my day job I do quite a bit of project management. I've observed over the years that some people have a knack for planning and others don't. There's a lot of skill and a kind of personality type to really sit down and organize a project including all the steps, how they fit together, possible delays and contingency, and so on. Add to it the fact that they're a small company where a lot of people are wearing a lot of hats and you probably run into issues where one delay cascades into many as the person whos needed to perform a task on product A is delayed and now working on B, which throws off C, and keeps him from ordering the parts he'll need for D in three months, etc. etc.
When you add to that the pressures of the business model he's using you have to wonder if a lot of it isn't financial. There's nothing wrong at all with using preorder cash as liquidity -- I mean that's what companies do, right? He's just trading future product or discounts instead of equity -- but without any insight its impossible for us to know if this is happening "equitably" or not. What I mean is, when you send him a dollar for your preorder is that actually allocated to your project? Or does that go into a general operating fund and is parted off to R&D, upcoming projects, other current projects...or (ack) past projects? I'm not saying he's doing that, but really even he may not even know what money is going where unless he has a very clear projectized way to manage sales orders, payments, purchase orders, good receipts, costing, and invoicing. I haven't seen anything that makes me think this is happening, because a lot of it seems to be tracked via email and paypal order numbers.
I don't know that I could do it any better -- but I think there's a lot of challenges being met here. It certainly gives me pause about doing business in the future, because it seems like things are getting worse, not better...and more products are coming out. That kind of thing makes me wonder about the viability of the structure (i.e., preorders needed to fund past projects because of cash flow difficulties or profitability) and makes me hesitant to buy. I canceled my ADG for this reason.
I have a ton of stam products and I do think he does a great job. But at this point the risk and delays are too much for me as a consumer.
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Post by jtc111 on Oct 29, 2018 9:48:57 GMT -6
Wouldn't a simple solution be to add six months to his delivery estimates? That would put the actual delivery date a lot closer to the mark the most of the time and would avoid what must be the majority of the complaints Josh fields. I'm sure a lot of us have ordered things that we knew up front would require a long wait. I ordered a DaVinci mic pre from HendyAmps and was told it would be a three month wait. He delivered in three months. I bought two custom acoustic guitars from Circle Strings in Vermont and knew up front I'd have to wait a year for each. They were delivered in a year and I had no complaints about that. I bought a bouzouki from Jack Spira in Australia and again knew up front I'd be waiting about a year. I made no complaints about that. The issue isn't that we're waiting. The issue is that the delivery estimates are unrealistic and we go through these repeated one month revisions half a dozen times. If I were Josh, I'd make all my delivery estimates 9 months and then bask in the glow of all the positive reviews about how I delivered a great product faster than expected.
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Post by Omicron9 on Oct 29, 2018 9:53:25 GMT -6
If this is how sales are handled, I can't imagine how service/repairs would be handled. That keeps me from buying his products right there. Add in the out-of-the-US shipping and it's a total non-starter, I don't care how great the gear might be.
Just one dude's opinion.
-09
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Post by Quint on Oct 29, 2018 10:28:01 GMT -6
If this is how sales are handled, I can't imagine how service/repairs would be handled. That keeps me from buying his products right there. Add in the out-of-the-US shipping and it's a total non-starter, I don't care how great the gear might be. Just one dude's opinion. -09 This has also been a concern of mine. Communication is difficult enough over things that directly result in additional money in Josh's pocket. When repairs are needed, which will only cost Stam money, how difficult is it going to be communicate for something like that?
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Post by Quint on Oct 29, 2018 10:33:16 GMT -6
I have a ton of stam products and I do think he does a great job. But at this point the risk and delays are too much for me as a consumer. I'm likely to still stick with the orders I currently have for a pair of 73eqs and 76adg unless it ends up being another 6 months or something. But that will likely be the last Stam product I ever order. The uncertainty isn't worth the discount.
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Post by stam on Oct 29, 2018 11:22:11 GMT -6
If this is how sales are handled, I can't imagine how service/repairs would be handled. That keeps me from buying his products right there. Add in the out-of-the-US shipping and it's a total non-starter, I don't care how great the gear might be. Just one dude's opinion. -09 We actually have qualified tech's everywhere with a response time of 24 hours and a 100% success rate in fixing the issue, all at our expense. It doesn't get much better than that.
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Post by stam on Oct 29, 2018 11:22:56 GMT -6
I have a ton of stam products and I do think he does a great job. But at this point the risk and delays are too much for me as a consumer. I'm likely to still stick with the orders I currently have for a pair of 73eqs and 76adg unless it ends up being another 6 months or something. But that will likely be the last Stam product I ever order. The uncertainty isn't worth the discount. You won't have to There won't be any discounts anymore, everything will be sold in stock. You know you can cancel the order and just order it when it's in stock if waiting is such a big problem, right? I can refund your orders and respect the pre order price, how about that?
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Post by mulmany on Oct 29, 2018 14:47:18 GMT -6
If this is how sales are handled, I can't imagine how service/repairs would be handled. That keeps me from buying his products right there. Add in the out-of-the-US shipping and it's a total non-starter, I don't care how great the gear might be. Just one dude's opinion. -09 We actually have qualified tech's everywhere with a response time of 24 hours and a 100% success rate in fixing the issue, all at our expense. It doesn't get much better than that. Joshua, I reached out to your Philadelphia,PA USA tech to get my SA4000+ looked at. He got back to me saying that your techs would not release the documents for him to perform the repairs because he was not an official repair tech. He is listed on your website. I have sent emails, but not sure if they are getting to the correct person. I was trying to avoid a cross country shipment by going local and not send it out to Chris at Barbaric. Patrick Mulrooney
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Post by kcatthedog on Oct 29, 2018 15:09:48 GMT -6
Hey Joshua, thx for that offer: appreciated.
Although, the first 150 adg, were supposed to ship in November, I have a feeling Friday, you will indicate a later shipment date, but fingers crossed.
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Post by Quint on Oct 29, 2018 16:26:57 GMT -6
I'm likely to still stick with the orders I currently have for a pair of 73eqs and 76adg unless it ends up being another 6 months or something. But that will likely be the last Stam product I ever order. The uncertainty isn't worth the discount. You won't have to There won't be any discounts anymore, everything will be sold in stock. You know you can cancel the order and just order it when it's in stock if waiting is such a big problem, right? I can refund your orders and respect the pre order price, how about that? I appreciate the offer. I really do. So thanks for that. At least for now though, I'm fine with leaving things as they are. I'm hoping that the ship date is coming closer and I think I'd prefer to just wait it out a little longer at this point instead of adding another wrinkle to the situation.
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Post by stam on Oct 30, 2018 6:23:48 GMT -6
We actually have qualified tech's everywhere with a response time of 24 hours and a 100% success rate in fixing the issue, all at our expense. It doesn't get much better than that. Joshua, I reached out to your Philadelphia,PA USA tech to get my SA4000+ looked at. He got back to me saying that your techs would not release the documents for him to perform the repairs because he was not an official repair tech. He is listed on your website. I have sent emails, but not sure if they are getting to the correct person. I was trying to avoid a cross country shipment by going local and not send it out to Chris at Barbaric. Patrick Mulrooney Hi Patrick We have a new tech on the East Coast. Please email me at stamaudio@gmail.com so we can forward you to him Thanks
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Post by lcr on Nov 12, 2018 18:24:57 GMT -6
I feel like the wait for it to be built was understood and a given at this point. But to wait for months after paying in full, and when Stam has specifically said that they supposedly don't do the very sort of thing you're describing, I would be raising hell. I know this, the 76ADG and pair of 73eqs I put a deposit down on will be my first and last purchase from Stam. That is, whenever I finally get them.... With the 67 and 47 there were tube issues, according to Joshua. And I believe he’s offered to refund anyone their money while they wait. With my 1073MPA, I have no idea why it’s been several weeks since I paid with no shipment. He doesn’t tell us that stuff. It appears to be par for the course though. Ragan, any updates on the status of your order?
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Post by ragan on Nov 12, 2018 18:35:45 GMT -6
With the 67 and 47 there were tube issues, according to Joshua. And I believe he’s offered to refund anyone their money while they wait. With my 1073MPA, I have no idea why it’s been several weeks since I paid with no shipment. He doesn’t tell us that stuff. It appears to be par for the course though. Ragan, any updates on the status of your order? Nope.
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