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Post by jtc111 on Oct 14, 2018 16:45:42 GMT -6
Or sing it backwards ...but you'd better hurry because we're running out of Beatles.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Oct 14, 2018 17:04:45 GMT -6
If I remember correctly (it may have even been from that thread...), Bob Ohlsson has mentioned RCA's original choice of "Pin 3 Hot" as being a pretty arbitrary choice at the time. (Please correct me if I'm wrong on that, Bob Olhsson .) Obviously, most manufacturers over the years ended up going the other way. But not all. It was Ampex's completely arbitrary choice. Everybody else connected gear with terminal strips. Around 1959 a worldwide standard was adopted that made pin 2 hot but no broadcaster in the U.S. was about to pay for rewiring their facility. Most of the microphone manufacturers that used XLRs did switch creating utter chaos.
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Post by the other mark williams on Oct 14, 2018 17:56:21 GMT -6
If I remember correctly (it may have even been from that thread...), Bob Ohlsson has mentioned RCA's original choice of "Pin 3 Hot" as being a pretty arbitrary choice at the time. (Please correct me if I'm wrong on that, Bob Olhsson .) Obviously, most manufacturers over the years ended up going the other way. But not all. It was Ampex's completely arbitrary choice. Everybody else connected gear with terminal strips. Around 1959 a worldwide standard was adopted that made pin 2 hot but no broadcaster in the U.S. was about to pay for rewiring their facility. Most of the microphone manufacturers that used XLRs did switch creating utter chaos. Thanks for setting that straight, Bob!
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Post by bigbone on Oct 14, 2018 18:11:26 GMT -6
It doesn't matter if you listen to the track in solo. any track, it will matter when you listen to all the tracks, that's why you go to listen in context of the song.You will ear if you got polarity issue. !!!! Not true. Intelligibility of human speech goes down with polarity reversed. Nope another internet myth.!!!!!
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Post by EmRR on Oct 14, 2018 18:16:21 GMT -6
Not true. Intelligibility of human speech goes down with polarity reversed. Nope another internet myth.!!!!! Not a myth. Tons of research pointing this way for many decades. You have some disproving data, point it out.
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Post by jtc111 on Oct 14, 2018 20:12:52 GMT -6
So today there is a standard way to wire for polarity?
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Post by drbill on Oct 14, 2018 21:53:15 GMT -6
So today there is a standard way to wire for polarity? Yeah. Pin 2 hot for XLR's, Tip hot for TRS.
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Post by ragan on Oct 14, 2018 21:56:13 GMT -6
Nope another internet myth.!!!!! Not a myth. Tons of research pointing this way for many decades. You have some disproving data, point it out. ”Disproving” or “proving” is gonna be pretty hard to come by when we’re talking about squishy terms like “intelligibility” isn’t it? I have no opinion on the matter as it’s only something I started thinking about about 5 hours ago due to this thread. But it would seem to me at first blush that the burden of proof would be on the claim that “absolute polarity” does matter. Different instruments produce opposite polarity naturally. Take a mandolin and a cello and a kick drum and a timbale and they’re gonna make the speaker go outward and inward in different ways. Why would there be a better or worse way to arbitrarily pick one of them as ‘correct’? Again, no dog in the fight. Just curious. But to my mind, the idea of one polarity laying claim to objective correctness is the dodgier side of the coin. Can you point me to some of this corroborating research?
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Post by kcatthedog on Oct 15, 2018 4:02:55 GMT -6
I see both the positives and the negatives in this discussion but think I will remain neutral and voice no opinion just to stay grounded .
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Post by askomiko on Oct 15, 2018 6:04:23 GMT -6
I've noticed a difference with soloed DI bass tracks. I can't say if it is a product of my speakers, room, or what.
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Post by stormymondays on Oct 15, 2018 7:28:50 GMT -6
Can you point me to some of this corroborating research? This one will do, even if only the abstract is accessible for free: www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=5547"Absolute polarity is an interesting phenomenon (wherein) those who don't hear the effect mostly doubt the opinion of those who do. (John Roberts, AES) A newly-devised test (herein called triple-blind) once-and-for-all assesses polarity audibility variously among audio engineers, hobbyists and musicians. Results decisively affirm the sensation; many trial subjects moreover testify that Absolute Polarity's palpable reality constitutes an essential addition to the audio engineering armament."
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Post by indiehouse on Oct 15, 2018 7:52:54 GMT -6
Can you point me to some of this corroborating research? This one will do, even if only the abstract is accessible for free: www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=5547"Absolute polarity is an interesting phenomenon (wherein) those who don't hear the effect mostly doubt the opinion of those who do. (John Roberts, AES) A newly-devised test (herein called triple-blind) once-and-for-all assesses polarity audibility variously among audio engineers, hobbyists and musicians. Results decisively affirm the sensation; many trial subjects moreover testify that Absolute Polarity's palpable reality constitutes an essential addition to the audio engineering armament." The abstract seems to affirm that polarity does have an audible effect, but doesn't seem to make any absolute judgments, i.e., does a reverse polarity mandolin track have an adverse effect on that instrument in a mix?
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Post by jeremygillespie on Oct 15, 2018 8:11:48 GMT -6
This one will do, even if only the abstract is accessible for free: www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=5547"Absolute polarity is an interesting phenomenon (wherein) those who don't hear the effect mostly doubt the opinion of those who do. (John Roberts, AES) A newly-devised test (herein called triple-blind) once-and-for-all assesses polarity audibility variously among audio engineers, hobbyists and musicians. Results decisively affirm the sensation; many trial subjects moreover testify that Absolute Polarity's palpable reality constitutes an essential addition to the audio engineering armament." The abstract seems to affirm that polarity does have an audible effect, but doesn't seem to make any absolute judgments, i.e., does a reverse polarity mandolin track have an adverse effect on that instrument in a mix? Depends on if you want it to sound “right” or not haha I’ve seen an “engineer” getting drum sounds and every time the bass drum hit, the speakers went in instead of out. I pointed it out to him thinking he overlooked it, but he had no clue what I was talking about. I backed out of the room slowly... I may be a bit crazy about this, but if I’m working in a room for the first time, I’m there about 2 hours early checking all their cables with a cable tester, and I check all the outboard gear that I plan to use as well. It doesn’t take long and takes a lot of guess work out of the equation. Also like to check older ribbons with a clicker to see how they are wired.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 15, 2018 8:38:06 GMT -6
Now that is cool Jeremy!
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Post by ragan on Oct 15, 2018 8:59:22 GMT -6
Can you point me to some of this corroborating research? This one will do, even if only the abstract is accessible for free: www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=5547"Absolute polarity is an interesting phenomenon (wherein) those who don't hear the effect mostly doubt the opinion of those who do. (John Roberts, AES) A newly-devised test (herein called triple-blind) once-and-for-all assesses polarity audibility variously among audio engineers, hobbyists and musicians. Results decisively affirm the sensation; many trial subjects moreover testify that Absolute Polarity's palpable reality constitutes an essential addition to the audio engineering armament." This portion is just sort of a restatement of the claim. Which may be right! I’m just interested in how they gathered their data and what the data looks like. I couldn’t get the thing to load right now but I’ll try later when I have a minute. Thanks for posting.
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Post by pope on Oct 15, 2018 11:31:07 GMT -6
I think this subject deserves its own topic..
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Post by lcr on Oct 15, 2018 11:54:29 GMT -6
I think this subject deserves its own topic.. I like hot sauce, but not on everything. Anyone respectfully agree or disagree?
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 16, 2018 10:50:14 GMT -6
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Post by svart on Oct 16, 2018 11:25:53 GMT -6
I think that there is a distinct difference in what people are talking about "polarity" and whether there is an "absolute" polarity.
A person makes a hard P sound with their mouth, the air and vibrations move in a specific direction. Our ears and brains have evolved to understand this as "normal" sounding.
Now, if a mic is on axis with a person's mouth and translates that P sound into an electrical impulse, it doesn't matter what electrical polarity the signal is at that time..
When the electrical polarity matters is when it's used to reconstruct the mechanical movement of a speaker, and how that speaker's polarity relates to the movement of air.
Lets say that the speaker moves inwards on a hard P sound (instead of the outwards motion that would correspond to hearing the P sound from the person's mouth) our ears/brain and the thousands of years of evolution that have shaped our ability to hear and interpret sounds would notice that it sounds differently..
But I'd also wager that it's a proprioception thing, where the cues from the room acoustics matter as much as the signal itself, and in a perfectly anechoic chamber, the sensation of polarity difference from the speaker vs. that from a person's mouth might be greatly reduced.
But if we're arguing if electrical polarity matters, it does not. It only matters when the electrical-to-acoustical conversion happens.
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Post by lcr on Oct 16, 2018 12:15:41 GMT -6
This looks interesting. Anybody use this?
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Post by christopher on Oct 16, 2018 12:22:34 GMT -6
I wonder if all the Stam A vs B comparison tests were wired the same? Could make a difference. I forget to try this sometimes, but I do think drums that are really sharp and painful with too much bite can sound smoother and softer if you reverse polarity. It makes me wonder how much really old classic gear had this built in, like engineer punched in something and it was reversed at the unit, or patch bay, but the gear was like magic! It's really easy to screw up pins 2/3, even XLR makers do it every once in a while. We used to carry a couple reverse wired XLRs to gigs that we discovered. I think the internationally known reverse polarity XLR is to wrap the connectors in yellow electrical tape? So if you don't have a polarity switch or need to flip pins in a hurry, like on a certain PA speaker, grab the yellow XLR. Works really fast.
I try to remember "+" requires 2 lines to draw it, pin2. The other pins make no sense.
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 16, 2018 12:22:50 GMT -6
Wonder how many hit songs were in absolute phase...
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Post by jeremygillespie on Oct 16, 2018 12:28:24 GMT -6
Wonder how many hit songs were in absolute phase... Every old school guy I’ve spent time in a room with making records thought it was a big deal. It seemed to be a bit more scientific for them and I sort of picked up on it. Now - with the tools at our disposal to fix basically anything, maybe it’s just not that big a deal anymore. I just like to make things right from the get go. I also understand that I generally have more time to mess around with stuff. If you have a 3 hour session where 2 songs have to be tracked start to finish I’d imagine you don’t get much time to sit around and mess with sounds - you record and go with what you have. I see good and bad sides of that.
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Post by indiehouse on Oct 16, 2018 13:00:53 GMT -6
Wonder how many hit songs were in absolute phase... Every old school guy I’ve spent time in a room with making records thought it was a big deal. It seemed to be a bit more scientific for them and I sort of picked up on it. Now - with the tools at our disposal to fix basically anything, maybe it’s just not that big a deal anymore. I just like to make things right from the get go. I also understand that I generally have more time to mess around with stuff. If you have a 3 hour session where 2 songs have to be tracked start to finish I’d imagine you don’t get much time to sit around and mess with sounds - you record and go with what you have. I see good and bad sides of that. What's your process for checking polarity?
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Post by Mister Chase on Oct 16, 2018 13:07:50 GMT -6
Wonder how many hit songs were in absolute phase... Every old school guy I’ve spent time in a room with making records thought it was a big deal. It seemed to be a bit more scientific for them and I sort of picked up on it. Now - with the tools at our disposal to fix basically anything, maybe it’s just not that big a deal anymore. I just like to make things right from the get go. I also understand that I generally have more time to mess around with stuff. If you have a 3 hour session where 2 songs have to be tracked start to finish I’d imagine you don’t get much time to sit around and mess with sounds - you record and go with what you have. I see good and bad sides of that. Or close to 20 songs in 6 hours like I did recently with a group. Luckily they were prepared, but that doesn't really leave time for anything. Not my favorite situation.
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