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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2018 13:59:08 GMT -6
Cool. Yeah, that's in the zone where it's off axis is not so important. Getting further back is where the men get separated from the boys so to speak. Still, good to hear the cheaper mics standing up. If you're using them up close and personal, the off-axis response is not so important. Cheers. Yeah my room is small and dead. It doesn’t offer anything nice that I want to bring into the equation, typically. Same here, thanks Ragan I can't even blame the room anymore... Running outta excuses here.!
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Post by stormymondays on Aug 12, 2018 12:30:42 GMT -6
I finally took a listen! Ok, I haven't listened blind and I'm totally biased, but I think that if you know what to listen for, the KM84s have something going on that I haven't really heard elsewhere. I have been chasing the KM84 sound for a while. My first pair of SDC was a Joly-modded Oktavas. In fact it was a mega thread on another forum by drbill comparing SDC what made me decide that: a) I didn't like KM184 and b) the Joly mics were a pretty good KM84 substitute. I did buy a Warbler myself after a comparison against the KM84 was posted on this site. When I got it, I didn’t like it at all, so I sold it. I liked my Joly Oktavas a lot better, and even the cheap Avantone CK-1. I could appreciate the Warbler was a good mic, but it was a sideways move at best. I recently got a pair of KM84 and they are all I hoped for. Piano-like lows, no hardness (I found the Warbler a bit hard), no phasiness like the Oktavas can sometimes have. They also sound great no matter where you point them. I tried them off axis as well, playing acoustic guitar and singing at the same time on a 90 degree angle. It sounded very convincing, no strange artifacts at all. I even got an unexpected “blind” shootout of my KM84 when my studio assistant played me a demo of one of his songs, with an acoustic guitar that sounded impressively amazing. I thought it was an older recording made with the Oktava but he had just tracked it that morning with the KM84. For me there's also some peace of mind knowing that a KM84 was probably used on most of the records that I owned. It's just one variable less to think about.
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 12, 2018 16:22:57 GMT -6
First of all, killer acoustic sound on all mics. Is that an old Guild? It had that sound. I dig them all, but for critical listening purposes I prefer B & C. There is a more low end which draws me in a little more. In a brighter modern pop style production though A and D would probably mix a bit better, but it's really splitting hairs. You could make either work. Thanks. Guitar is a Martin HD-28. It's got the "VTS" top, which is their term for their proprietary torrefaction thing. I'd never have believed in that whole thing but I picked up two different HD-28s on different occasions that absolutely made my ears stand up. Sounded so dry and woody and old. Both times it was only after strumming the thing and being so impressed did I notice it was the VTS thing. I had to have one. It does sound and feel older than it has a right to. Interesting! You're the first person I've heard from with direct experience of the torrified top. As usual, I've been somewhat skeptical of the whole "torrified" thing, it's very interesting to see a good report from a real person who has experience with it. I'll have to make a point of checking it out when I can - thanks!
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 12, 2018 16:31:11 GMT -6
So much of this is millimeters of positioning difference with similar sounding devices. Especially with cardioid proximity effect in play. When proximity effect is really close mic to mic, it's easily the largest important similarity. When I ran the KM140 and MKH406 along with some others in a test, proximity was hugely different. One of the main reasons I generally prefer not to make mic judgements via "shootouts" is that so often the optimum positions for different mics are quite different. Like, who'da thunk it?
Observing them is pretty interesting though.....
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 12, 2018 16:34:52 GMT -6
Doesn't exactly roll off the tongue . Gibby?
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SDC Clips
Aug 12, 2018 16:38:51 GMT -6
via mobile
EmRR likes this
Post by ragan on Aug 12, 2018 16:38:51 GMT -6
Thanks. Guitar is a Martin HD-28. It's got the "VTS" top, which is their term for their proprietary torrefaction thing. I'd never have believed in that whole thing but I picked up two different HD-28s on different occasions that absolutely made my ears stand up. Sounded so dry and woody and old. Both times it was only after strumming the thing and being so impressed did I notice it was the VTS thing. I had to have one. It does sound and feel older than it has a right to. Interesting! You're the first person I've heard from with direct experience of the torrified top. As sual, I've been somewhat skeptical of the whole "torrified" thing, it's very interesting to see a good report from a real person who has experience with it. I'll have to make a point of checking it out when I can - thanks! Yeah I didn’t even know what “VTS” was. I just, on both occasions, thought upon the first few strums, “Damn. What is with this thing? This may be the best HD-28 I’ve ever played”. The one I bought has proven to be my favorite acoustic guitar that I’ve owned. I’m really smitten with it.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 12, 2018 17:06:28 GMT -6
I think my buddy has one, and it does sound big and warm.
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Post by svart on Aug 13, 2018 9:08:52 GMT -6
Mic choices aside, can we address the swaying motion that a lot of acoustic players have when they get into a song?
you get the mics in the right spots, sounds wonderful.
They start playing and you can hear them moving, slightly bouncing the guitar on their knee, level drifting up and down, slight phase differences happening, clothes rustling, heavy breathing..
I find that all these things matter a lot more than mic choices when getting "the take"..
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Post by EmRR on Aug 13, 2018 9:15:17 GMT -6
Mic choices aside, can we address the swaying motion that a lot of acoustic players have when they get into a song? you get the mics in the right spots, sounds wonderful. They start playing and you can hear them moving, slightly bouncing the guitar on their knee, level drifting up and down, slight phase differences happening, clothes rustling, heavy breathing.. I find that all these things matter a lot more than mic choices when getting "the take".. Yeah, I have one charting fan fave record out there that's all acoustic with live vocal, and almost ever picked take is phasey as hell from them drifting off mark that worked right at soundcheck. Each layer of compression and mastering made it incrementally worse. There are takes that sound right....and they didn't pick'em. RX will cure clothes and breathing.
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Post by theshea on Aug 14, 2018 4:00:55 GMT -6
@ Ragan: wow, those sounds/mics are close. i am THIS close to ordering the warbler 127 c-flat. i also listened to your other soundfiles on soundcloud and your room sounds very very good, you can hear that in the omni drumsoundfiles. And you‘ve got some quality drumkit and guitars: all contributing to the classy recording sounds you achieve.
I‘ve one question about the serial quality of the 3u audio since they are made in china (not that they cannot build top quality products!) and depending on the brand they may or may not have good quality control. You seem to have tried and own a lot of the 3u audio stuff: how do you expierence their quality control? Ever had a problem with it?
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Post by matt@IAA on Aug 14, 2018 8:47:52 GMT -6
theshea I'm not ragan, but I own six 3u mics (two LDCs and four 127s). I had an issue with one, and when I described it to Guosheng he immediately identified it as a known issue with one of their switches (if I recall correctly). I shipped it back, he covered shipping both ways and I got it back very quickly. I also had a headbasket arrive slightly dented, and he shipped me a replacement no questions asked. Guosheng also keeps a record of the serial number and mic, so if you buy a single he can match a pair for you at a later date. Pretty nice.
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SDC Clips
Aug 14, 2018 10:54:23 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by theshea on Aug 14, 2018 10:54:23 GMT -6
theshea I'm not ragan, but I own six 3u mics (two LDCs and four 127s). I had an issue with one, and when I described it to Guosheng he immediately identified it as a known issue with one of their switches (if I recall correctly). I shipped it back, he covered shipping both ways and I got it back very quickly. I also had a headbasket arrive slightly dented, and he shipped me a replacement no questions asked. Guosheng also keeps a record of the serial number and mic, so if you buy a single he can match a pair for you at a later date. Pretty nice. thanks. very reassuring that the customer service is top notch.
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Post by ragan on Aug 14, 2018 11:11:19 GMT -6
@ Ragan: wow, those sounds/mics are close. i am THIS close to ordering the warbler 127 c-flat. i also listened to your other soundfiles on soundcloud and your room sounds very very good, you can hear that in the omni drumsoundfiles. And you‘ve got some quality drumkit and guitars: all contributing to the classy recording sounds you achieve. I‘ve one question about the serial quality of the 3u audio since they are made in china (not that they cannot build top quality products!) and depending on the brand they may or may not have good quality control. You seem to have tried and own a lot of the 3u audio stuff: how do you expierence their quality control? Ever had a problem with it? Thanks, theshea. It's a small room but I built a lot of treatment for it. It's just very dry and dead, which I think is as good as you can hope for in such a small space. It doesn't offer anything nice but it also doesn't contribute much of that gross fluttery, boxy, small room sound. As far as 3U quality, I'm in about the same boat as matt@IAA . I've got eight 3U mics here (and my good buddy has a few more) and I've had exactly two issues. My Teal CM-1 was humming, which turned out to be nothing more than tightening the body tube (grounding issue). And a Warbler IV (which isn't included in the eight mics, I was trying it out and ended up going with a pair of Warbler MKID's instead) had some distortion when tracking tambourine. I emailed Guosheng and sent him sound clips and, get this, he asked for the exact model of tambourine I was using, ordered one, and did tests there at the factory and sent me sound clips back which I think (it was a few years ago) ended up showing us that it was a one off issue with the mic I had and not systemic to the Warbler IV design. You would be hard pressed to get that kind of customer service from some higher end brands, much less when we're talking about a $270 mic. Guosheng is a top shelf guy in my experience. If you're wanting some of his mics, I would not worry about that side of the equation. Oh and email him directly, you'll always get the best price that way. His website is not usually totally up to date. He's a lot more of a designer/engineer than he is a businessman. In my view his mics offer enormous bang for the buck.
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Post by theshea on Aug 14, 2018 12:50:56 GMT -6
Thanks ragan! Helped a lot to decide to go for a warbler 127 c-flat. I still can‘t believe how close to the km84 it sounds. Need a new SCD to record my acoustic guitars and replace my oktava 012 (stock) and rode nt5. But ... i‘ve been eyeying 2 warbler 127 for overheads. I too have a small and rather dry/dead sounding room and they could be a nice change for my nohype lrm2 with whom i normally mic my overheads.
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Post by ragan on Aug 14, 2018 13:31:17 GMT -6
Thanks ragan! Helped a lot to decide to go for a warbler 127 c-flat. I still can‘t believe how close to the km84 it sounds. Need a new SCD to record my acoustic guitars and replace my oktava 012 (stock) and rode nt5. But ... i‘ve been eyeying 2 warbler 127 for overheads. I too have a small and rather dry/dead sounding room and they could be a nice change for my nohype lrm2 with whom i normally mic my overheads. Can’t say I’d recommend against that. A pair of good SDCs is mighty handy.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2018 7:18:55 GMT -6
Thanks for posting these, been on hols in UK last two weeks and only just got around to listening. Fabulous sounding playing, guitar and recordings, whichever mics you used. Unfortunately knew the answers before listening, but crazy close!
Sending my KM84's off this week for service. I have a single boxed Warbler 127 with Cardioid-Flat and Omni-Flat capsules if anyone is interested? Less than a year old, hardly used.
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SDC Clips
Aug 19, 2018 21:05:53 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by Johnkenn on Aug 19, 2018 21:05:53 GMT -6
Dang ragan your 18”away from 12th fret? I feel like I would lose bottom end of I was that far away. Sounds great though.
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Post by ragan on Aug 19, 2018 21:20:32 GMT -6
Dang ragan your 18”away from 12th fret? I feel like I would lose bottom end of I was that far away. Sounds great though. I didn't put a tape on it but yeah, something like that. Could be closer to 15-16". That HD-28 is a really big sounding guitar so I like some distance for strumming. Also when I do AB's I like to make sure there's enough distance that the slight positional difference between each capsule is minimized.
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Post by theshea on Aug 21, 2018 12:57:48 GMT -6
warbler 127 c-flats ordered and delivered in no time! the seller is a great guy btw. really, just e-mail him for an offer. ok, i just received them today and was very very curious. so i took them (ordered a matched pair) to my home-studio. just did a quick acoustic guitar recording, not in the most optimal spot in my room. had a drumkit set up and had limited space. i wanted to compare the warbler 127 c-flat with my oktava mk 012 unmodded, stock, original. i sold a rode nt5 recently because it was a tiny bit harsher than my oktava. but now ... my new warbler are my new faves! listen for yourself. i recorded one guitar - a sigma j45 on the left playing chords and my seagull s6 on the right playing arpeggios. one time both with the warbler and next time both with my oktava. all through an AML ez1073. all raw tracks, no mixing at all, no lo-cut, no pad, nothing. let's hope soundcloud doesn't mess with the sound to much, i uploaded wav files ... here's both guitars recorded with the warbler: soundcloud.com/zinzin/warbler-127-c-flatand here with the oktava: soundcloud.com/zinzin/oktava-mk-012i think there is a big difference in the highs and in the warmth (sorry for that word guys ;-) ok, just listened and soundcloud makes it all phasey, so here's the dropbox-links: www.dropbox.com/home/Warbler%20vs%20Oktava?preview=Warbler127CFlat.wavwww.dropbox.com/home/Warbler%20vs%20Oktava?preview=Oktava012.wavwww.dropbox.com/sh/jo40lb9a9ruarp0/AAAxflJErzHzeNXRitl9RB3ja?dl=0i did some very unscientific pink noise test with my matched pair warblers, recording my monitors and noticed that they are not perfectly matched. from around 20-100 they are like 2db apart, from 100-400 they seem to be like 1db apart more or less the rest is the same.
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Post by ragan on Aug 21, 2018 14:20:59 GMT -6
Nice! I like the Warblers over the Oktavas in these clips too.
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Post by theshea on Aug 22, 2018 2:03:05 GMT -6
Although i have to say i still like the oktava 012. it‘s slightly treblier/wiry sound gets smoothed out when using my la610 opto compressor and the end result is a very good to me.
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Post by EmRR on Aug 22, 2018 7:04:40 GMT -6
Yeah, they're different uses really, with the Oktava capsules all having some treble boost. They tend to have a lower frequency 'thump' resonance if it's what you need to add body. Might win with a small body nylon string that needs more 'umph'. The Warbler sounds good here, wins this test. Try rotating the Oktava off-axis to match the treble qualities, see what you find.
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SDC Clips
Aug 22, 2018 8:06:27 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by ragan on Aug 22, 2018 8:06:27 GMT -6
Although i have to say i still like the oktava 012. it‘s slightly treblier/wiry sound gets smoothed out when using my la610 opto compressor and the end result is a very good to me. Yeah I like the Oktavas too. Had a pair for years. Beyer verybgood with omni capsules too.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2018 9:04:38 GMT -6
I'm gonna give the ISK Pearls / Gem's a proper go but I might pick up a couple of 127's.. Really impressed with their performance, thanks for the test ragan..
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SDC Clips
Aug 22, 2018 9:30:19 GMT -6
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Post by ragan on Aug 22, 2018 9:30:19 GMT -6
I'm gonna give the ISK Pearls / Gem's a proper go but I might pick up a couple of 127's.. Really impressed with their performance, thanks for the test ragan.. You bet. If you scroll down on my soundcloud page there are a bunch of other clips. Drum OH, the other capsules, etc.
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