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Post by porkyman on Jun 7, 2018 10:55:34 GMT -6
Good watch
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Post by stormymondays on Jun 7, 2018 11:43:59 GMT -6
Indeed!
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Jun 7, 2018 16:32:06 GMT -6
He's got the symptoms but not so much the cause. Back when making a recording was expensive, artists and musicians had to first prove their worth by putting asses in seats at gigs. The best of those got managers and only the very best of those ever got record deals. Even then most only got their first hit on their second record deal. They were tested and honed their craft on stage as an unknown. Suits and payola never really made people stars back then.
An additional complication happened in the '80s as Madison Avenue got drunk on micro-marketing. They no longer wanted to advertise on the station having the most listeners. They wanted a station having a very narrow, well-defined listener demographic. Local record store sales didn't work for this so stations had to move to focus group testing. What's ironic is that this was exactly how Muzak programmed their background music and here we are today with the radio sounding mostly like genre-flavored elevator music.
Basically, music needs to start over.
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Post by yotonic on Jun 7, 2018 21:21:38 GMT -6
LOL. This is a joke. I grew up in the 60s and 70s and a lot of rock music sounded similar - on purpose. Similar because it was predominantly written in a few common keys and used the pentatonic and blues scales. Timber was similar because the construction tools were similar. Bands copied each others rigs and vocal stylings. The millennial whoop as this douche calls it is the age old "call&response" of blues and soul music that comes from our history. The same bullshit was in every Three Dog Night, Thin Lizzy, Mountain, Bad Company, etc, etc, etc song back then - the Joe Cocker, Paul McCartney, Janis Joplin blues scream. Just like the grunge growl was in every 90s song. We just didn't have it coming at us from 50 directions, nor the time to record an internet report on it.
I hate a lot of modern music, and I hate a lot of Beatles & Zeppelin songs. The giant truth of the matter is that great song writing doesn't always come from 333 hours of "mold breaking". The truth is that the very best songs often write themselves in hours and often are recorded in days. And they are based around the human voice, melody, lyric, and rhythm. That's why someone who might be considered an informed listener, can actually enjoy Katy Perry and Joni Mitchell.
Having grown up with the Beatles and now working around the current batch of pop stars, the intellect and drive seems consistent amongst the hitmakers of yesterday and today. I agree with Bob's comment that " Back when making a recording was expensive, artists and musicians had to first prove their worth by putting asses in seats at gigs".
Well now if artists put asses in the seats - they have gigs and careers and build their own businesses. There's no George Martin, no Apple Records, etc., but they don't need that to put asses in seats. They need to write, record, and tour with a body of work that builds a following. If it's real, and resonates with a demographic these guys can make a very good living and have a very meaningful relationship with their fans. They don't need a plane, or a Yoko, just a good body of work and a strong work ethic.
There have always been the bizzare wanna-be one hit wonders. There were tons of them in the 70s and there are tons of them now, especially in rap & hip hop. But some of the greatest popular music in our history was made with just the drum machine of a foot on a wooden floor, a shitty 6 string, and an honest voice singing in and out of key.
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Post by Ward on Jun 7, 2018 22:43:00 GMT -6
It's all Max Martin's fault
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Post by swurveman on Jun 8, 2018 7:16:28 GMT -6
I think any time any product is centralized by a few focus group corporations-3 in the case of music production and distribution- you're going to get a cookie cutter product.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 8, 2018 8:46:24 GMT -6
He's got the symptoms but not so much the cause. Back when making a recording was expensive, artists and musicians had to first prove their worth by putting asses in seats at gigs. The best of those got managers and only the very best of those ever got record deals. Even then most only got their first hit on their second record deal. They were tested and honed their craft on stage as an unknown. Suits and payola never really made people stars back then. An additional complication happened in the '80s as Madison Avenue got drunk on micro-marketing. They no longer wanted to advertise on the station having the most listeners. They wanted a station having a very narrow, well-defined listener demographic. Local record store sales didn't work for this so stations had to move to focus group testing. What's ironic is that this was exactly how Muzak programmed their background music and here we are today with the radio sounding mostly like genre-flavored elevator music. Basically, music needs to start over. [br It’s funny I never realized in the 80’s how lucky I was to grow up with a small town top 40 station that played Split Enz Zeplin right next to Johnny Hates Jazz, ABC, Van Halen Def Leppard ect. That and a great record store, a couple of months ago I was back home and thanked Mike at Innersleave records for starting this interesting life. I told my wife we were going to my old bank, he cashed my paychecks because he was getting at least a 1/3 of it!
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Post by mrholmes on Jun 8, 2018 16:15:37 GMT -6
They also have done massive marketing to the Beatles. Just use You-Tube to travel back .... they where placed in TV shows at prime time etc.
I agree with the part that performers do not write thier music/songs anymore. It klills the songs soul and this was my main reason to not join the writers game when I was asked. It has nothing to do with creative freedom, its more like working in a factory.
And all this is one reason why I consume a lot of music from Band-Camp. I can find true creative Bands which touch my soul and sometimes put tears on my face.
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Post by jimwilliams on Jun 8, 2018 17:11:11 GMT -6
Music isn't as big a deal as it used to be for the youngin's. It's more like background elevator music to be enjoyed while streaming other stuff on a smartphone. Plus, many of the incentives to get into music have waned.
It does make a fantastic hobby though.
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Post by Ward on Jun 8, 2018 22:19:45 GMT -6
Let’s not forget everyone’s favorite songwriters tool! 1564
Don’t stop believing you could hit my like a wrecking ball or a firework
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 8, 2018 23:04:22 GMT -6
yotonic I respect your contrarianism...but respectfully disagree. I get where you’re coming from - there was definitely a lot of shit music in the mid 20th. But I don’t think LZ and the Beatles were that. I listen to the Beatles and hear stuff that sounds so simple but is so complex. I’m not a Beatles nerd - I don’t worship everything they did...but for something that was done 50 years ago still be cutting edge today - still be a bar that few reach...it’s just amazing. I sit here in Nashville and I can tell you with absolute assurance that it isn’t about “best song wins”. It’s about commerce. The biz has always been that - a business, but more and more due to the dwindling monetary share and rise of other media - the music is secondary. I just wonder if there is an atmosphere for a Neil Young et al...
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Post by wiz on Jun 9, 2018 1:24:52 GMT -6
yotonic I respect your contrarianism...but respectfully disagree. I get where you’re coming from - there was definitely a lot of shit music in the mid 20th. But I don’t think LZ and the Beatles were that. I listen to the Beatles and hear stuff that sounds so simple but is so complex. I’m not a Beatles nerd - I don’t worship everything they did...but for something that was done 50 years ago still be cutting edge today - still be a bar that few reach...it’s just amazing. I sit here in Nashville and I can tell you with absolute assurance that it isn’t about “best song wins”. It’s about commerce. The biz has always been that - a business, but more and more due to the dwindling monetary share and rise of other media - the music is secondary. I just wonder if there is an atmosphere for a Neil Young et al... This ties in with a question that came to mind this morning on my walk..... How are record labels making money nowadays? How are they staying open? Serious question. cheers Wiz
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Post by porkyman on Jun 9, 2018 1:48:24 GMT -6
yotonic I respect your contrarianism...but respectfully disagree. I get where you’re coming from - there was definitely a lot of shit music in the mid 20th. But I don’t think LZ and the Beatles were that. I listen to the Beatles and hear stuff that sounds so simple but is so complex. I’m not a Beatles nerd - I don’t worship everything they did...but for something that was done 50 years ago still be cutting edge today - still be a bar that few reach...it’s just amazing. I sit here in Nashville and I can tell you with absolute assurance that it isn’t about “best song wins”. It’s about commerce. The biz has always been that - a business, but more and more due to the dwindling monetary share and rise of other media - the music is secondary. I just wonder if there is an atmosphere for a Neil Young et al... This ties in with a question that came to mind this morning on my walk..... How are record labels making money nowadays? How are they staying open? Serious question. cheers Wiz 360 contracts. They take a piece of everything the artist does.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Jun 9, 2018 7:28:26 GMT -6
Booking the Beatles in prime time was an utterly trivial task for Andrew Loog Oldham because they were already the biggest artist in Europe. What was clever was bringing the girls in to scream exactly like Parker had done with Elvis Presley. Ironically, George Martin and Brian Epstein were furious and fired Oldham for creating what they considered to be a scruffy image. The Beatles made an end run around the entire industry thanks to Epstein and Oldham's problem-solving skills fueled by their lack of assumptions from experience.
As for songwriting, it probably peaked in Hollywood and Nashville during the '50s. That set the bar and kept our egos in check at Motown. The same was probably true for the Beatles.
Neil Young came out of a vibrant live music scene in Toronto. That's where every innovation has begun and often in the form of so-called cover bands where people learned how to connect and needed to create great material in order to be able to slip it into their act.
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Post by yotonic on Jun 9, 2018 8:51:37 GMT -6
yotonic I respect your contrarianism...but respectfully disagree. I get where you’re coming from - there was definitely a lot of shit music in the mid 20th. But I don’t think LZ and the Beatles were that. I listen to the Beatles and hear stuff that sounds so simple but is so complex. I’m not a Beatles nerd - I don’t worship everything they did...but for something that was done 50 years ago still be cutting edge today - still be a bar that few reach...it’s just amazing. I sit here in Nashville and I can tell you with absolute assurance that it isn’t about “best song wins”. It’s about commerce. The biz has always been that - a business, but more and more due to the dwindling monetary share and rise of other media - the music is secondary. I just wonder if there is an atmosphere for a Neil Young et al... You and I are talking about two different things I suspect. My point is that good music is still being written and many of those artists are making a living touring and building a fan base. "Country Radio" and "Pop Radio" are more homogenized than ever, but that seems more of an issue about "radio" and the changing landscape of the music business. I'm on the touring side of the business and I have some young, ex-baseball player coming through with his latest single about the American Flag and his girlfriend every couple of weeks, they are all good looking nice guys, it seems like William Morris is printing them out of a factory. Most of them can play & sing thank God. I can't remember half of them. But at the same time there are the Chris Stapletons, Lera Lynn, John Paul White, Alabama Shakes, Black Keys, etc, etc, etc, making great music that can hang with stuff from the past. Are they on the radio? No not really... but most of my customers don't listen to the radio anymore anyhow. I think the kid who made this internet video was conflating various issues just to get clicks. PS: Listening to Phil Collins' "One More Night" on FM radio 72 times a day was twice as painful as listening to Katy Perry's "Firework" 30 time a day a few years ago!
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 9, 2018 10:11:50 GMT -6
yotonic I respect your contrarianism...but respectfully disagree. I get where you’re coming from - there was definitely a lot of shit music in the mid 20th. But I don’t think LZ and the Beatles were that. I listen to the Beatles and hear stuff that sounds so simple but is so complex. I’m not a Beatles nerd - I don’t worship everything they did...but for something that was done 50 years ago still be cutting edge today - still be a bar that few reach...it’s just amazing. I sit here in Nashville and I can tell you with absolute assurance that it isn’t about “best song wins”. It’s about commerce. The biz has always been that - a business, but more and more due to the dwindling monetary share and rise of other media - the music is secondary. I just wonder if there is an atmosphere for a Neil Young et al... You and I are talking about two different things I suspect. My point is that good music is still being written and many of those artists are making a living touring and building a fan base. "Country Radio" and "Pop Radio" are more homogenized than ever, but that seems more of an issue about "radio" and the changing landscape of the music business. I'm on the touring side of the business and I have some young, ex-baseball player coming through with his latest single about the American Flag and his girlfriend every couple of weeks, they are all good looking nice guys, it seems like William Morris is printing them out of a factory. Most of them can play & sing thank God. I can't remember half of them. But at the same time there are the Chris Stapletons, Lera Lynn, John Paul White, Alabama Shakes, Black Keys, etc, etc, etc, making great music that can hang with stuff from the past. Are they on the radio? No not really... but most of my customers don't listen to the radio anymore anyhow. I think the kid who made this internet video was conflating various issues just to get clicks. PS: Listening to Phil Collins' "One More Night" on FM radio 72 times a day was twice as painful as listening to Katy Perry's "Firework" 30 time a day a few years ago! It should be entitled “why popular modern music sucks”. None of those people you mentioned are doing any of the things he mentioned. Those five artists you mentioned have much more in common with 70s music than any of the modern trends.
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Post by johneppstein on Jun 9, 2018 13:09:23 GMT -6
Music isn't as big a deal as it used to be for the youngin's. It's more like background elevator music to be enjoyed while streaming other stuff on a smartphone. Plus, many of the incentives to get into music have waned. It does make a fantastic hobby though. It's not as big a deal because nearly everything they're exposed to is boring as hell!
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Post by johneppstein on Jun 9, 2018 13:33:01 GMT -6
LOL. This is a joke. I grew up in the 60s and 70s and a lot of rock music sounded similar - on purpose. Similar because it was predominantly written in a few common keys and used the pentatonic and blues scales. Timber was similar because the construction tools were similar. Bands copied each others rigs and vocal stylings. The millennial whoop as this douche calls it is the age old "call&response" of blues and soul music that comes from our history. The same bullshit was in every Three Dog Night, Thin Lizzy, Mountain, Bad Company, etc, etc, etc song back then - the Joe Cocker, Paul McCartney, Janis Joplin blues scream. Just like the grunge growl was in every 90s song. We just didn't have it coming at us from 50 directions, nor the time to record an internet report on it. This is nonsense. When I was a teenage kid in the '60s, Top 40 music was amazingly heterogeneous. In the course of an hour show on any of the major stations I listened to in Oklahoma City, Chicago, and Boston you might hear The Beach Boys, any of the English bands, Dave Brubeck, Jimmy Reed, Buck Owens, Motown, Frank Sinatra and Dean Martin, Roy Orbison, Slim Harpo, Roger Miller, Getz-Gilberto, Mrs. Miller, The Archies, Bob Dylan, Peter, Paul, and Mary,various one hit wonders, novelty stuff, and even the odd bit of pop classical. They played anything and everything based on local popularity. A local act could schlep their single up to their favorite jock, schmooze a bit, and get played on the station's "pick hits". If it got phone in response and sold locally it would get added to the rotation. Since all the jocks and program directors listened to each other's stations, if a record started to break on one station it would get picked up regionally and it it continued to do well (and had distribution) it could go national. That's how records like The Kingsman's "Louie Louie" and The Trashmen's "Surfin' Bird" became national hits. In that period the great majority of Top 40 radio consisted of records by small to medium sized indies. This continued up through the '70s at which point consolidation began to set in and killed it. Once playlists began to be centrally programmed that was it for traditional Top 40. The advent of FM didn't help, either.
When people were being expopsed to everything it was a lot less likely that they'd think "Oh I don't like THAT kind of music, I listen to THIS." They'd go "Oh, I like THIS SONG!"
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Post by yotonic on Jun 9, 2018 13:57:51 GMT -6
Lol! My experience is nonsense? I was alive then too and you have missed my point completely, perhaps it wasn’t made clear enough to you. It has always been common for bands to copy the sounds and popular styles of their time. They copied the guitar amps, the vocal stylings it has been a reality since the beginning of popular music. Call it sound alikes, whatever, it’s been going on forever. And in my experience there are more than enough talented musicians and songwriters today to keep me busy 24/7, I can’t keep up. If you aren’t hearing them on the radio that is because of the world we live in now, it is different than the 60s obviously but not for the lack of talented songwriters and musicians. If you eat junk food and listen to junk music, that’s on you. There’s plenty of healthy stuff out there you just have to look for it. The internet drops a variety of music in your lap that radio never has had the ability to provide. If you prefer radio to the internet then you are out of luck this is 2018.
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Post by johneppstein on Jun 9, 2018 14:15:32 GMT -6
I was alive then too and you have missed my point completely, perhaps it wasn’t made clear enough to you. It has always been common for bands to copy the sounds and popular styles of their time. They copied the guitar amps, the vocal stylings it has been a reality since the beginning of popular music. Call it sound alikes, whatever, it’s been going on forever. And in my experience there are more than enough talented musicians and songwriters today to keep me busy 24/7, I can’t keep up. If you aren’t hearing them on the radio that is because of the world we live in now, not the lack of talented songwriters and musicians. If you eat junk food and listen to junk music, that’s on you. There’s plenty of healthy stuff out there you just have to look for it. And you missed mine. When I was first starting out in local bands we played pretty much anything we could that was played on the popular radio, up to and including Glenn Miller's "in The Mood" (which we hacked up pretty badly) - right alongside "Satisfaction" , "I Get Around" and Jimmy Driftwood's "Tennessee Stud".....
I dunno, maybe things were different in central Oklahoma than wherever you were, but the local bands there played a little bit of everything.
But talking about COMMERCIALLY BROADCAST music - it was far more varied back then than now. And the reason is consolidation of ownership and narrowcasting.
Sure, you can dig around and find interesting stuff - but for the most part it doesn't get promoted and there's no money in it for the players - which was not at all true back then. It was a far more democratic playing field. Back then the stylistic exposure of the average person was much, much wider. Now, unless you're a music nut - a rapidly dwindling breed - you only hear what you're force fed. And it's boring.
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Post by yotonic on Jun 9, 2018 14:27:26 GMT -6
I believe in my initial post I was referencing the 70s which was noticeably different from the 60s as we both would agree. At the end of the day, there is plenty of good music being written today. I avoid the pop radio stations because all of it does sound the same. Some of it I like, good ditties, good production, but the majority of it falls short. Same thing on country radio and rock radio!! LOL
I don't take what broadcast television or radio is putting out, time is too short. I find the artists I like and I buy the tracks of theirs I like, or I purchase their album if I want to support them. Same thing with television production, I purchase shows I like from PBS or HBO etc.
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Post by johneppstein on Jun 9, 2018 14:32:44 GMT -6
I believe in my initial post I was referencing the 70s which was noticeably different from the 60s as we both would agree. At the end of the day, there is plenty of good music being written today. I avoid the pop radio stations because all of it does sound the same. Some of it I like, good ditties, good production, but the majority of it falls short. Same thing on country radio and rock radio!! LOL I don't take what broadcast television or radio is putting out, time is too short. I find the artists I like and I buy the tracks of theirs I like, or I purchase their album if I want to support them. Same thing with television production, I purchase shows I like from PBS or HBO etc. You said '60s and '70s. And there was still a fair amount of independant radio around in the '70s. That's what broke punk rock in the US, despite all the efforts of the established industry to kill it. The punk band I was in at the time ('78) got airplay by sending our somewhat slutty (and incidentally very smart) lead singer around to KSAN and KSJO to schmooze the jocks, which she did quite well. That was pretty much the last gasp though - By the mid-80s narrowcasting and central programming had a stranglehold on radio and then came MTV....
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Post by mrholmes on Jun 9, 2018 18:40:26 GMT -6
yotonic I respect your contrarianism...but respectfully disagree. I get where you’re coming from - there was definitely a lot of shit music in the mid 20th. But I don’t think LZ and the Beatles were that. I listen to the Beatles and hear stuff that sounds so simple but is so complex. I’m not a Beatles nerd - I don’t worship everything they did...but for something that was done 50 years ago still be cutting edge today - still be a bar that few reach...it’s just amazing. I sit here in Nashville and I can tell you with absolute assurance that it isn’t about “best song wins”. It’s about commerce. The biz has always been that - a business, but more and more due to the dwindling monetary share and rise of other media - the music is secondary. I just wonder if there is an atmosphere for a Neil Young et al... This ties in with a question that came to mind this morning on my walk..... How are record labels making money nowadays? How are they staying open? Serious question. cheers Wiz Wiz. Like they did it all the time. They have a product that is good they do marketing and PR for it and on the last mile they hope for the best because its no longer in thier hands. Today they are also part holders of streaming services. I am very often surprised how naive some colleagues are about the record industry. They always had Marketing and PR departments.
What they do is a business and they want to see cash in the end of the day. I could also tell stories how they droped friends with more than one world hit in 80s + 90s.
As soon you don't deliver hits amymore, they are done with you.
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ericn
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Posts: 14,958
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Post by ericn on Jun 10, 2018 8:42:25 GMT -6
This ties in with a question that came to mind this morning on my walk..... How are record labels making money nowadays? How are they staying open? Serious question. cheers Wiz 360 contracts. They take a piece of everything the artist does. Yep it is no longer about creating an artist it is about celebrity, selling everything but records. Music is just the means to a fashion label and reality show. The stupid thing is nobody explains good music is the long play and will continue to generate a income long after the looks and the popularity fades. We were joking around here on a semi related note our idea of what got Lindsey fired from Fleetwood Mac, “ but guys I can make as much from a Jeep and Drug ad sitting on my ass as living in hotels and planes for a year!”
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Post by swurveman on Jun 10, 2018 8:42:41 GMT -6
If you eat junk food and listen to junk music, that’s on you. I think this is what narrrowcasting is counting on. How many people actively search out music? I don't know the answer, but for my non musician friends and family they do very little work finding music.
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