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Post by mikec on Jan 13, 2018 17:29:57 GMT -6
Okay, just let me buy one of these already.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 13, 2018 17:41:50 GMT -6
Ironic I am finding the PSU location conversation ironic as I recall when the Tonebeast had the external psu, people criticized Warm for it not being pro enuff. Now the psu is inside and shielded Think it will quiet enuff:)
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Post by notneeson on Jan 13, 2018 18:12:00 GMT -6
Are there any similarities in topology between the ISA and the BAE? I think you're comparing two totally different units. I think he's making that point actually, that noise floor issues are multifactorial and you can't presume external will always be quieter.
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Post by pope on Jan 13, 2018 18:38:57 GMT -6
Are there any similarities in topology between the ISA and the BAE? I think you're comparing two totally different units. I think he's making that point actually, that noise floor issues are multifactorial and you can't presume external will always be quieter. Well, if we're comparing the exact same unit with external or internal supply, the external will always be quieter.
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Post by cdkelly on Jan 13, 2018 21:11:24 GMT -6
Curious what peeps thoughts are about to eq or not if buying. I understand people who say the WA isn’t exactly like the 73 and has eq more like I think the 84?. Authentic names aside, how important is the eq to people for tracking and mixing ? I think the change for the WA eq, makes it more versatile, but if cost is a consideration, first of all I tend not to eq while tracking and try to use mike positioning, pre type and filters to get the sound I want or the closest approximation. I also have 16 channels of delta deluxe 4 band British EQ and am modding each channel to have a hpf, Harrison like. Also, I have the 2 channel kush electra, which I find very versatile. Finally, you can’t Send/recieve to the WA eq without to some extent also going back to its pre, which would re-impart some colour to the signal, which may or may not be desirable but I think not in every situation ? So, I’m thinking for me , just get the WA273: the 2 channel 73 style pre. This will compliment my WA-412 API pres (4) and again the delta provides 16 other British pres. All my channels are getting modded for improved sonics but there is natural console variation in those 16 pres, which I think a good thing: as I have been testing things with my WA-87, I sure like what I am hearing. So, I feel like ordering the WA2-73 just to get that neve like quality which I don’t have now. My delta has a transformer option but I don’t have them and I understand Warm worked very closely with the transformer company to ensure it’s 73 pre is really dialed in to specs. Thoughts about to eq or not to eq ? Thx ! I think EQ is important part of the 1073, there is an interaction there between the two circuits... the way it loads it and colors it perhaps. I knew someone who for years had some racked Neve channel strips and one had the preamp out on it but the line input still worked. He was using a channel out of a PreSonus M80 (Jensen/FET/op-amp) type preamp behind the scenes and coming into the line input from the back, and he swore it still sounded almost the same as a working Neve channel... i.e. that more of the tone, to him, was coming from the EQ. That being said, a Neve 1290 (preamp only minus 1073's EQ) is still a great piece of gear to have. They sound great, just perhaps not identical to one with the EQ coupled to it. It might make more sense to call stand-alone pre's 1290's; but from a marketing sense it certainly doesn't have the instant recognition that '1073' does.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 13, 2018 21:19:51 GMT -6
I was trying to be prudent but you guys have argued so persuasively that the eq is so integral to the neve sound that I can’t risk offending you all, so I’ll just have to buy the eq out of discretion and diplomacy as it’s really all your faults !
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Post by ragan on Jan 13, 2018 23:33:57 GMT -6
Curious what peeps thoughts are about to eq or not if buying. I understand people who say the WA isn’t exactly like the 73 and has eq more like I think the 84?. Authentic names aside, how important is the eq to people for tracking and mixing ? I think the change for the WA eq, makes it more versatile, but if cost is a consideration, first of all I tend not to eq while tracking and try to use mike positioning, pre type and filters to get the sound I want or the closest approximation. I also have 16 channels of delta deluxe 4 band British EQ and am modding each channel to have a hpf, Harrison like. Also, I have the 2 channel kush electra, which I find very versatile. Finally, you can’t Send/recieve to the WA eq without to some extent also going back to its pre, which would re-impart some colour to the signal, which may or may not be desirable but I think not in every situation ? So, I’m thinking for me , just get the WA273: the 2 channel 73 style pre. This will compliment my WA-412 API pres (4) and again the delta provides 16 other British pres. All my channels are getting modded for improved sonics but there is natural console variation in those 16 pres, which I think a good thing: as I have been testing things with my WA-87, I sure like what I am hearing. So, I feel like ordering the WA2-73 just to get that neve like quality which I don’t have now. My delta has a transformer option but I don’t have them and I understand Warm worked very closely with the transformer company to ensure it’s 73 pre is really dialed in to specs. Thoughts about to eq or not to eq ? Thx ! I think EQ is important part of the 1073, there is an interaction there between the two circuits... the way it loads it and colors it perhaps. I knew someone who for years had some racked Neve channel strips and one had the preamp out on it but the line input still worked. He was using a channel out of a PreSonus M80 (Jensen/FET/op-amp) type preamp behind the scenes and coming into the line input from the back, and he swore it still sounded almost the same as a working Neve channel... i.e. that more of the tone, to him, was coming from the EQ. That being said, a Neve 1290 (preamp only minus 1073's EQ) is still a great piece of gear to have. They sound great, just perhaps not identical to one with the EQ coupled to it. It might make more sense to call stand-alone pre's 1290's; but from a marketing sense it certainly doesn't have the instant recognition that '1073' does. I had the Heritage DMA-73 for a couple years and now have the Great River MP-2NV (they sounded almost identical, FWIW) and I love that sound. I’ve never (other than being the ‘talent’ on the other side of the glass) used vintage 1073s w/ EQ. Kinda makes me wonder if I’m actually a 1290 junkie rather than a 1073 junkie. I run my Great River through the Harrison 32c EQs even when not cutting or boosting anything (did the same with the DMA-73) and I just love the sound. Makes me curious about how different it would be to use a proper 1073 circuit w/ the EQ.
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Post by cdkelly on Jan 13, 2018 23:49:49 GMT -6
I think EQ is important part of the 1073, there is an interaction there between the two circuits... the way it loads it and colors it perhaps. I knew someone who for years had some racked Neve channel strips and one had the preamp out on it but the line input still worked. He was using a channel out of a PreSonus M80 (Jensen/FET/op-amp) type preamp behind the scenes and coming into the line input from the back, and he swore it still sounded almost the same as a working Neve channel... i.e. that more of the tone, to him, was coming from the EQ. That being said, a Neve 1290 (preamp only minus 1073's EQ) is still a great piece of gear to have. They sound great, just perhaps not identical to one with the EQ coupled to it. It might make more sense to call stand-alone pre's 1290's; but from a marketing sense it certainly doesn't have the instant recognition that '1073' does. I had the Heritage DMA-73 for a couple years and now have the Great River MP-2NV (they sounded almost identical, FWIW) and I love that sound. I’ve never (other than being the ‘talent’ on the other side of the glass) used vintage 1073s w/ EQ. Kinda makes me wonder if I’m actually a 1290 junkie rather than a 1073 junkie. I run my Great River through the Harrison 32c EQs even when not cutting or boosting anything (did the same with the DMA-73) and I just love the sound. Makes me curious about how different it would be to use a proper 1073 circuit w/ the EQ. I think there's a difference, yes. In a '1073', there is a mic input transformer in front of the preamp and an output transformer at the end of the EQ. There's no interstage transformer and so the two circuits probably interact with each other due to how they are coupled. There are a few companies (Heritage I think maybe) who do sell a stand alone Neve EQ that has an input and output transformer. It would be an interesting experiment to see what the differences are between a '1073' and a 1290 with a fully decoupled Neve EQ following it.
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Post by gouge on Jan 14, 2018 0:25:17 GMT -6
i'd much rather have standalone pre and eq so i can use them in combination. if the eq adds one more transformer then i am more than ok with that.
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Post by ariel on Jan 14, 2018 3:54:25 GMT -6
Ragan, I too would like to A/B the pre only vs the pre and EQ with any of the neve clobe brands to see if there is a difference. I did listen to a post James Lugo did when doing this test with a neve and 2 BAE's one with eq and the other without. The non eq sounded good and solid the eq one seemed to have a bit more top end but then gave an appearance of not being as thick as the pre only.
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Post by notneeson on Jan 14, 2018 9:53:30 GMT -6
I think he's making that point actually, that noise floor issues are multifactorial and you can't presume external will always be quieter. Well, if we're comparing the exact same unit with external or internal supply, the external will always be quieter. I understand this idea in theory. And I'm not a tech or an EE. But I also remember people trying to fix noise issues on ACMP 84s and finding that externalizing the PSU actually made the noise worse. Why? I don't really know. Could have been pilot error?
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 15, 2018 7:42:53 GMT -6
One concession to cost that has not come up yet— appears they did not include line input transformers, FWIW. I wonder if the Heritage Elite did the same? Also it has an internal power supply. I really don't know enough about the subject to weigh in, but the BAE website says, "When power supplies are built into the same chassis as the audio circuitry, nearby audio paths are susceptible to nasty magnetic fields radiated from the transformers, which adds noise and hum. Additionally, the preamp’s components are subject to extra heat generated from transformers, regulators, and rectifiers—and as we all know, heat is the enemy of electronics. It causes unwanted changes in operational parameters and premature component failure." I have no idea of the validity of this scientifically. If others have opinions/facts concerning the science I'd be interested in knowing about it. That being said, my Vintech clone (4-1073i's) has an external power supply, while my API 3124 is internal- and both are quiet to me. One has EQ and the other doesn't though. The only EQ I have is a GML 8200 and it has an external power supply as well. I will say that it's nice to drive my four Vintech's from one power supply. I have too many power chords as it is. Aren’t people adding noise with all these tape plugins? I thought noise was cool
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Post by EmRR on Jan 15, 2018 8:30:13 GMT -6
Well, if we're comparing the exact same unit with external or internal supply, the external will always be quieter. I understand this idea in theory. And I'm not a tech or an EE. But I also remember people trying to fix noise issues on ACMP 84s and finding that externalizing the PSU actually made the noise worse. Why? I don't really know. Could have been pilot error? I've moved parts outboard to an external box a few times. Sometimes it does make some aspect worse. I had a weird tube thing that was quietest with the power transformers and B+ rectifier external, but the filament rectifier internal. I've put shield plates in between things and seen noise get worse. These things are frequency specific, lower it one place, goes up another. Pick the least evil.
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Post by EmRR on Jan 15, 2018 8:32:06 GMT -6
Also it has an internal power supply. I really don't know enough about the subject to weigh in, but the BAE website says, "When power supplies are built into the same chassis as the audio circuitry, nearby audio paths are susceptible to nasty magnetic fields radiated from the transformers, which adds noise and hum. Additionally, the preamp’s components are subject to extra heat generated from transformers, regulators, and rectifiers—and as we all know, heat is the enemy of electronics. It causes unwanted changes in operational parameters and premature component failure." I have no idea of the validity of this scientifically. If others have opinions/facts concerning the science I'd be interested in knowing about it. That being said, my Vintech clone (4-1073i's) has an external power supply, while my API 3124 is internal- and both are quiet to me. One has EQ and the other doesn't though. The only EQ I have is a GML 8200 and it has an external power supply as well. I will say that it's nice to drive my four Vintech's from one power supply. I have too many power chords as it is. Aren’t people adding noise with all these tape plugins? I thought noise was cool Yup. iZotope all noise and ambience away, then add noise of choice back in. I've got some rare vintage chair squeaks from Edison rolls I like to insert.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Jan 15, 2018 13:42:10 GMT -6
I understand this idea in theory. And I'm not a tech or an EE. But I also remember people trying to fix noise issues on ACMP 84s and finding that externalizing the PSU actually made the noise worse. Why? I don't really know. Could have been pilot error? I've moved parts outboard to an external box a few times. Sometimes it does make some aspect worse. I had a weird tube thing that was quietest with the power transformers and B+ rectifier external, but the filament rectifier internal. I've put shield plates in between things and seen noise get worse. These things are frequency specific, lower it one place, goes up another. Pick the least evil. I'm going to put my comments here because Doug or SAVART are 2 of the guys who will either agree or disagree with actual knowledge vs GS gospel. From what I have learned there are 2 contradictory theories as far as power supply location in audio gear. 1. Isolating, or outboard good because you keep all the nastiest that the Transformers etc are radiating away from the audio circuit. 2. Keep the leads between the PSU and the audio PCB as short as possible so that everything else isn't being interfearing with your power line. Again these are design theories, not law there are those who will use an outboard supply with onboard filtering, sort of a cover all bases approach. Now for what, at the very least is the most influential factor in sub $1k gear PSU design, the real world political factor. Design for rating agency compliance, There are to approaches to getting your design UL or CSA approved, 1 Is expensive and can take years submit your piece to the lab for testing. 2 Quik and cheap use a PSU that has all ready been approved, an example of this is while at Fullco our sister company Intelix brought out a series of VCA based install mixers, using the UL/CSA approved Wall wart Rane had designed for all its gear, they were happy to sell them to. One of their biggest dealers and bring their own per unit cost down by increasing the number they ordered from the OEM they used. So why is UL/CSA approval so important? Because as I have been saying for years recoding is a very small piece of the audio world! Corporate and educational is where the real money is at in this world these requirements are a big deal, and if gear is going into what the State of CA considers a "public building" a legal requirement ( a BAE with a non UL supply permanently in the rack of a school in CA could mean a multi- million dollar insurance claim being denied)!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2018 15:39:05 GMT -6
some blurb from a website.... going to be selling shit to get one of these....
– Anything special about the Warm Audio WA73 that you want to tell ?
The Custom Carnhill transformers are built like the very first original Marinair Radar transformers, not the 80’s style Carnhill/St. Ives everyone else is using.
– Hand wired ? Everything is made in the US ?
They aren’t assembled in the USA but are quality control tested here at our headquarters before being shipped to dealers/distributors.
– We understand you guys have used the Carnhill Transformers ? Why ?
Neve originally used Marinair Radar, then switched to St. Ives. Carnhill acquired St. Ives later, so Carnhill is now the Neve transformer company everyone uses. That said Carnhill is aware of the very first Marinair Radar transformers and agree they sound better than the St. Ive’s versions and have made these custom for us. (This is actually cool to have that original vintage sound)
– Anything special you want to tell us about the EQ ?
We added additional frequency points to the high frequency boost/cut more like the 1084 to give more versatility.
– UK Blore Edwards Switch-Pots are military grade right ? Anything to say about this and the affordable price range ?
Yes, UK Blore Edwards Switch pots are used in the EQ sections. The prices are incredible, it took several years of negotiating with Blore-Edwards and Carnhill to get the prices down where we needed them to make the prices very attractive.
We were blown away with the little and precise decisions made by Warm Audio in crafting this beauty. Let us know what you guys think about the WA73. Let the world know !
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Post by Guitar on Jan 17, 2018 15:46:04 GMT -6
That's a bit hard to believe, "Carnhill is aware of the very first Marinair Radar transformers and agree they sound better than the St. Ive’s versions and have made these custom for us"
Why would a company that's been around so long be selling a bunch of product that "they know doesn't sound good?"
Seems like some kind of marketing spin to me.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2018 15:52:03 GMT -6
yep ... slightly OTT ... soldered with the warm breath of angels, anyone ordered one?
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Post by ragan on Jan 17, 2018 16:04:20 GMT -6
That's a bit hard to believe, "Carnhill is aware of the very first Marinair Radar transformers and agree they sound better than the St. Ive’s versions and have made these custom for us" Why would a company that's been around so long be selling a bunch of product that "they know doesn't sound good?" Seems like some kind of marketing spin to me. I took that more like “Thr Carnhills that builder’s are accustomed to using are based off the 80s version and we think the older one sounds better and someone there agreed with us. Either way, that’s the build we are using”. Or something.
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Post by pope on Jan 17, 2018 16:07:30 GMT -6
Seems like some kind of marketing spin to me. Nah, just pure honest facts...
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Post by gouge on Jan 17, 2018 16:26:51 GMT -6
it points out how ridiculous the conversation about what a real neve premap should be is. they all sound different. both input and output transformers changed through the years.
the marketing spin is clear though. it says carnhill is "aware" of the first transformers. so i read that to be they have reverse engineered the original transformer. the inference is that they have rebuilt the original. which they havent.
warm is trying to differentiate themselves in the see of clones by putting some spin there.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2018 16:44:02 GMT -6
to be fair the article came from a third party website. if this thing is quiet, does what it's meant to, then it seems good value. still trying to work out how 80db of gain would be needed tho, even with a ribbon?
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 17, 2018 17:54:27 GMT -6
That's a bit hard to believe, "Carnhill is aware of the very first Marinair Radar transformers and agree they sound better than the St. Ive’s versions and have made these custom for us" Why would a company that's been around so long be selling a bunch of product that "they know doesn't sound good?" Seems like some kind of marketing spin to me. No offence, but that is a little cynical of you, as it is completely possible that carnhill did say that or that Bryce is a liar, which his certainly not my experience of him. Custom order could mean exactly that, that there was a lot of discerning audio engineering back and forth with prototypes before Bryce signed off on the design and build specs and that these trannies do have something special? Bryce told me the output or electrical loading required heavy duty wiring. Anyway proof will be in the pudding. I will be ordering a 2 pre for sure and am still mulling over whether to order the eq or not. I am also shooting out some new monitors this weekend so watching the wallet.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 17, 2018 19:37:59 GMT -6
I would do this: buy it, if it doesn’t sound like the right decade in the English Countryside, return it.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 17, 2018 22:02:33 GMT -6
Well, the obvious thing people will want to know, is how does it compare to the Heritage Audio HA73EQ ELITE.
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