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Post by johneppstein on Feb 6, 2018 11:55:08 GMT -6
I'm all for mics with NO sibilance, but doesn't that kind of mean by default that 3-8k is pretty much missing from the mic's linear spectrum? IMO, sibilance is best controlled by mic positioning, and then distance before capsule manipulation. Just my opinion though. It seems to me that what makes a mic sibilant isn't necessarily exaggerated high frequency response, although that can be a factor, it also can be a result of harmonic distortion in the presence range or ragged irregularities in response (which might look OK on an averaged out graph, such as provided by some manufacturers in their spec sheets.) A non-sibilant mic doesn't have to be deficient in the presence region, it just doesn't have anomalies there.
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Post by johneppstein on Feb 6, 2018 11:58:04 GMT -6
I don't think the modern bedroom engineer spends as much time playing around and moving the mic around as we used to do! Part of this is there are just so many affordable mics that say they are different & more and more it's a musician who just wants to point and run! I remember each new mic I got my hands on was treasure and learning it what it could do was an adventure! You know we're just one small step away from "Get off my lawn". I don't mind them on my lawn as long as they mow.
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Post by johneppstein on Feb 6, 2018 12:02:35 GMT -6
What a pretty picture! Printed charts in owner's manuals arer exactly that. The only response charts I really trust are pen graph plots by serial number.
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Post by johneppstein on Feb 6, 2018 12:04:34 GMT -6
Most graphs, especially from budget manufacturers, are either cherry picked from a best case sample or downright BS. So yeah, use your ears and ignore the pictures. Or averaged between many samples to produce an artificially smooth "representative" <cough, cough> response.
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Post by johneppstein on Feb 6, 2018 12:06:32 GMT -6
Mic frequency response graphs are useless, you don't know the amount of smoothing or response at any other angle ! Not useless, they're very helpful in moving product!
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Post by johneppstein on Feb 6, 2018 12:09:34 GMT -6
For me, a multi-band polar response chart is much more valuable (as long as you can trust the manufacturer). If you're using any sort of stereo mic setup--especially XY, ORTF or Blumlein--that's going to tell you whether you'll have even frequency response across the soundstage. It will also tell you if you have to change the relative angle of the mics, depending on wherever the -3dB point is. Overall frequency response of the mic is important of course, but it's largely situational. Predictable and controlled off-axis response is often the mark of the better microphone. Agreed unfortunately the smaller manufacturers lack access to the facilities to produce accurate polar response graphs! It seams when it comes to clones manufacturers would rather give us a graph that represents our expectations rather than something useful. I also believe the lack of understanding and fear of reality of polar patterns keeps manufacturers from spending the money to produce these graphs ! And the larger manufacturers are too busy cranking out zillions of "product" to be bothered with individual tests. I remember the days when the better manufacturers, like Beyer, used to include a serial numbered pen plot with each mic. No more....
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 6, 2018 12:10:06 GMT -6
What a pretty picture! Printed charts in owner's manuals arer exactly that. The only response charts I really trust are pen graph plots by serial number. I understand. I only pasted it as it was being discussed so good to see a graph but I think we do know how the graphs can be simplified
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Post by johneppstein on Feb 6, 2018 12:12:08 GMT -6
I love this forum but it is very much old vs. new at times, strictly for the sake of picking a side. I didn't pick my side. It just happened!
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Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 6, 2018 12:25:00 GMT -6
The Warm 47 sounds really good, my friend tracked a vocal with it and got a great performance. Is it equal to a real 47, probably not, but it sure sounds better than any of the $1,200 mics I've heard, and I've heard quite a few. It doesn't have any fatal flaws, so that's a good start I'd say.
I'll try to do a little more with it soon.
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Post by ericn on Feb 6, 2018 13:11:57 GMT -6
Mic frequency response graphs are useless, you don't know the amount of smoothing or response at any other angle ! Not useless, they're very helpful in moving product! Nah, I can count on my hands the guys who bought a mic because of the frequency plot, out of the truckloads of mics I sold. Of course, if that was the motivating fact I would tell them how fucking stupid that was, sometimes more politely some times not😁
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Post by iamasound on Feb 6, 2018 13:34:44 GMT -6
4-3-1-2 on female voice 4-1-3-2 on male voice 2-1-4-3 on piano
The Warm version of the 47 for me faired tops on this piano, but with my listening environment at the present moment being away from home with just headphones and this tablet it nipped out the others in what was to me just about an even toss up. Though, my ear wasn't thrilled with how it was dealing with esses when challenged with vocals.
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Post by Guitar on Feb 6, 2018 15:05:48 GMT -6
I really liked the Warm in that shootout. more than the GAP I guess, the gap sounded brighter to me in the sibilance area.
The M147 I did not like much.
The U47 obviously is the grandaddy.
My take-away is I'm very impressed with the Warm and maybe should audition one. It doesn't have quite a big enough bottom though.
I'll probably just build my own DIY version of a U47.
My parts-list can't possibly cost much more than a Warm anyway.
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Post by Vincent R. on Feb 6, 2018 15:07:29 GMT -6
I really liked the Warm in that shootout. more than the GAP I guess, the gap sounded brighter to me in the sibilance area. The M147 I did not like much. The U47 obviously is the grandaddy. My take-away is I'm very impressed with the Warm and maybe should audition one. It doesn't have quite a big enough bottom though. I'll probably just build my own DIY version of a U47. My parts-list can't possibly cost much more than a Warm anyway. If I had the skill set that’s what I would do.
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 6, 2018 15:52:42 GMT -6
The iaudio(max’s) diy kit , arguably one of the best, fully speced with Thriersch cap, case etc., was more than the price of the WA-47, three years or so ago and of course you can’t get them now either!
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Post by Guitar on Feb 6, 2018 16:02:28 GMT -6
Yeah, I bet it would pants the WA-47 in a blind shootout, as well.
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Post by drbill on Feb 6, 2018 16:05:31 GMT -6
The M147 I did not like much. No surprise there. The 147 was one of the first truly horrible mics the "new" Neumann started producing. Not even worthy to have a 4 or 7 in the name - IMO. Honestly, not even close. I've disliked that mic every time I've been forced to use one. (Mostly due to lack of mic selection, as I would never pull it out voluntarily.) I suspect that the only reason it was chosen was to make the other mics look better??? LOL Put it up against a good 47 and watch it crumble under it's own weight.
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 6, 2018 16:07:23 GMT -6
Well just the T cap is almost 2/5ths of the price of the wa47:)
I no longer have my diy 47 but of the clips I have heard of the wa47 for me it’s very strongly reminiscent .
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Post by Guitar on Feb 6, 2018 16:14:49 GMT -6
Well just the T cap is almost 2/5ths of the price of the wa47:) I no longer have my diy 47 but of the clips I have heard of the wa47 for me it’s very strongly reminiscent . Yeah, It was my favorite one in the shootout posted besides the original. The original is so good though, it's spooky. It's creepy because so few of the clones seem to get all the way there.
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 6, 2018 16:22:38 GMT -6
50 odd years of unobtainium exact parts and magic fairy usage dust will do that to a mike !
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Post by ragan on Feb 7, 2018 2:10:42 GMT -6
On the female vocal, I liked the Warm the best.
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Post by adamjbrass on Feb 7, 2018 6:19:19 GMT -6
The M147 I did not like much. No surprise there. The 147 was one of the first truly horrible mics the "new" Neumann started producing. Not even worthy to have a 4 or 7 in the name - IMO. Honestly, not even close. I've disliked that mic every time I've been forced to use one. (Mostly due to lack of mic selection, as I would never pull it out voluntarily.) I suspect that the only reason it was chosen was to make the other mics look better??? LOL Put it up against a good 47 and watch it crumble under it's own weight. the m147 sounds jarring...Not a good look for them.
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Post by EmRR on Feb 7, 2018 9:09:02 GMT -6
Agreed unfortunately the smaller manufacturers lack access to the facilities to produce accurate polar response graphs! I remember the days when the better manufacturers, like Beyer, used to include a serial numbered pen plot with each mic. No more.... The MKH30's and MKH800 Twin I got recently have individual serial # identified plots provided, with manufacturing date codes and an individual sign-off. Do ANY of the Neumanns have that? Interesting if they do not. Going back 2 decades, my 414B-ULS has plots for each pattern, as do my M160 and M130. My UMT70S did not provide. It seems to me the argument with the MKH stuff is related to stereo matching and sensitivity more than sound. For the most part those mics are all going to be interchangeable in practice, so long as they meet spec. They are damn flat. The back side of the MKH800 Twin is a little less sensitive than the front.
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Post by ericn on Feb 7, 2018 12:16:24 GMT -6
I remember the days when the better manufacturers, like Beyer, used to include a serial numbered pen plot with each mic. No more.... The MKH30's and MKH800 Twin I got recently have individual serial # identified plots provided, with manufacturing date codes and an individual sign-off. Do ANY of the Neumanns have that? Interesting if they do not. Going back 2 decades, my 414B-ULS has plots for each pattern, as do my M160 and M130. My UMT70S did not provide. It seems to me the argument with the MKH stuff is related to stereo matching and sensitivity more than sound. For the most part those mics are all going to be interchangeable in practice, so long as they meet spec. They are damn flat. The back side of the MKH800 Twin is a little less sensitive than the front. I'll bet it has to do with 2 factors 1 st the MKH is viewed as a specialist tool and the buyer is going to actually expect plots such as these. 2 shortly after Harman bought AKG in the 90's there was a huge price cut on all products, this was especially noticeable on 414's to the point of we were buying 414's for less than we closed out the last of the prior version. Before this I remember even C3000's had individual plots. While the physical cost of doing individual plots isn't much the labor and time are so easy cost cut that really probably has little effect on 90% of those buying mics !
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Post by Vincent R. on Feb 7, 2018 19:12:36 GMT -6
Here is the YouTube video for those clips at the purple site.
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Post by guitfiddler on Feb 7, 2018 20:14:20 GMT -6
I'm ready to start building the ultimate U47, who's with me? Anyone? one? one? one?
I guess the echo is still here and no one is on board. Maybe I'll demo the Warm47 and see what all the fuss is about. I think my Peluso 47LE sounded real nice. I think that was back in 2005 when I got it.
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