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Post by stam on Nov 10, 2017 8:47:35 GMT -6
You are paying tribute to an old mic Without sound funny, cloning/copying a circuit while trying to keep a low price isn't exactly what I would call "paying tribute". It's easy and quick money without any R&D or innovation involved, which is OK for many people I guess. No arguments here, but saying that Warm or Stam (or any similar company for that matter) "pay tribute to old gear" sounds a bit.... you know... BTW, sorry for the off topic. I did not try to keep a low price, I actually had to raise it due to this. Tell me which component on the SA47 can be upgraded and I will upgrade it. Easy and quick money? It took me years of tests and prototyping and I still have not made a single dime or gone into production. Sounds a bit what? I pay tribute to older classics and 95% of the time I achieve a completely identical sound and I am certainly very proud of it and will keep doing it. Eventually I will manufacture original gear and see what happens but there is plenty left to be brought to life and a lot of people are happy about it.
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Post by malkit on Nov 10, 2017 9:35:42 GMT -6
This is one of the aspects that I like about Stam: a real concern with "getting it right". They'll source parts that are the best fit for the sound, after putting their products up to rigorous listening tests.
I'd rather pay a little extra for a tribute mic that has a 1-year warranty than try to fumble about with a DIY clone...especially where I can't realistically get a u47 in my studio for extensive testing!
The two SA1073 units that I have have been giving great, uncompromised service and I can see them as studio bedrocks for the unforeseen future. Nothing to fret about with them; they just work.
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Post by swurveman on Nov 10, 2017 10:05:51 GMT -6
So... it will sound like a $900 47? These companies really have to stop with all of this. There is no magic potion. No tuning of the capsule or tube choice on a large scale manufacturing job will ever sound like a 47. Just not going to happen. They need to pull from the pages of Chandler and make something unique with its own voice and cut the bs. 95% of the people that will purchase this have never heard and will never hear a real 47, and to simply market off the name alone is pretty awful imo. Definitely not singling out warm either... I agree that they shouldn't be calling them "47's". That being said: The question is to me: How does the Warm47 at $900.00 sound compared to a Peluso 2247SE that has a list of $2,212.00. That's a 60% discount in the "we're gonna call it a 47" world of mics.
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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 10, 2017 10:11:05 GMT -6
I'd appreciate if this thread could stay on topic: meaning the wa47.
If people want to talk about other related issues to clones etc.., please start another thread.
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 10, 2017 12:55:25 GMT -6
Well, you can, to the point weather neither you nor I would be able to select which one is the real one in a shootout. It seems to me that blind shootouts against an original are kinda missing the point. The original should be identified as what it is, making the question "Does this other (these others) sound like the original or not? And how close does it (they) come and in what ways does it (do they) fail?" That seems a more useful test to me.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Nov 10, 2017 13:43:53 GMT -6
Well, you can, to the point weather neither you nor I would be able to select which one is the real one in a shootout. It seems to me that blind shootouts against an original are kinda missing the point. The original should be identified as what it is, making the question "Does this other (these others) sound like the original or not? And how close does it (they) come and in what ways does it (do they) fail?" That seems a more useful test to me. I had a buddy build one of the tabfunkenworks 47 deals. All the upgraded parts that you could possibly get on it. Threw it up on a Yamaha c7. How’d it sound? Pretty good! Then I put up an actual 47, original tube and all. It absolutely blew it away on all fronts. I’m with you on the way to test things. The blind test does nothing but figure out which mic works best for the particular situation. ..never mind how well the sound of each mic will sit in a particular production, how it takes eq and compression, how it works in the room you’re in, etc
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Post by jakeharris on Nov 10, 2017 15:41:22 GMT -6
They need to pull from the pages of Chandler and make something unique with its own voice and cut the bs. Yes, that Chandler is definitely very unique. So refreshing to have a product that's not trying to benefit from the U47 madness, in any way, whatsoever...
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Post by BenjaminAshlin on Nov 10, 2017 18:34:39 GMT -6
It will be a popular product is my guess.
Capsule looks like its is from 3u audio. It will be interesting to find out how they have implemented the 5751 which is a lower gain 12AX7. The AMI transformer looks like a custom job for warm audio.
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Post by Vincent R. on Nov 13, 2017 20:09:12 GMT -6
I'd really love to hear some clips of this. They posted a video which was basically an unboxing. He then plugs it in, turns it on, starts speaking into it, but we don't get to hear that audio. That's agrivating.
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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 13, 2017 20:21:07 GMT -6
Notice how he turned on psu without the mike attached and hot swapped it: doubt the cap likes that ? Also, wouldn’t you want to let the tube warm up and blow off some electrons to have a better sense of what the mike really sounds like ?
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Post by jakeharris on Nov 13, 2017 22:04:23 GMT -6
Hot plugging a tube-mic wrecks the tube...
If he's careless enough to be holding the mic when doing it, the whole thing can get pretty unpleasant.
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Post by wiz on Nov 13, 2017 23:36:28 GMT -6
It looks really nice
cheers
Wiz
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Post by aamicrophones on Nov 14, 2017 18:43:33 GMT -6
The WA-47 FET Jr. looks exactly like Advanced Audio's CM48. I'm curious about o hear how these sound. I haven't thought the clips of the WA-87 sounded like a real U87, but for a lot of people these will be great options for beginner mics. Hi Vincent, the CM48 has a class "A" transformer coupled discrete circuit like the original u47fet microphone with our AK47 capsule, which is true to the original K47 pictured on the left from a 1958 U47. The WA-47jr has a "K47" type capsule with 6 micron skinned diaphragms but it has a transformerless circuit. The original K47 capsules has a brass surround not the later nylon surrounds. However, the body is exactly the same as our CM48 fet microphone which is $100 more than the WA47jr or $50 more for Real Gear On-Line members. Cheers, Dave Attachments:
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Post by aamicrophones on Nov 14, 2017 18:46:07 GMT -6
The WA-47 FET Jr. looks exactly like Advanced Audio's CM48. I'm curious about o hear how these sound. I haven't thought the clips of the WA-87 sounded like a real U87, but for a lot of people these will be great options for beginner mics. Hi Vincent, the CM48 has a class "A" transformer coupled discrete circuit like the original u47fet microphone with our AK47 capsule, which is true to the original K47 pictured on the left from a 1958 U47. The WA-47jr has a "K47" type capsule with 6 micron skinned diaphragms but it has a transformerless circuit. The original K47 capsules has a brass surround not the later nylon surrounds. However, the body is exactly the same as our CM48 fet microphone which is $100 more than the WA47jr or $50 more for Real Gear On-Line members. Cheers, Dave
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Post by aamicrophones on Nov 14, 2017 19:06:48 GMT -6
Notice how he turned on psu without the mike attached and hot swapped it: doubt the cap likes that ? Also, wouldn’t you want to let the tube warm up and blow off some electrons to have a better sense of what the mike really sounds like ? That would definitely be a problem with an original U47 but today we have solid state regulation and the power supplies we use have zener regulation on the plate supply and a 6v regulator on the filament. The modern power supplies that we use and Bryce would be using are fully regulated so the filament is up to temperature within a minute and the regulator holds it within + and - 2%. The last U47 I restored took 50 minutes before the filament and plate supply came up to 105V. With regulation you can hot swap the microphones as the supplies voltage don't vary under different loads (mike connected/no mike connected). Cheers, Dave
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Post by aamicrophones on Nov 14, 2017 19:25:23 GMT -6
It will be a popular product is my guess. Capsule looks like its is from 3u audio. It will be interesting to find out how they have implemented the 5751 which is a lower gain 12AX7. The AMI transformer looks like a custom job for warm audio. Hi Guys, that would be my guess that the capsule is sourced through 3U audio. As, a design engineer the only way to use the 5751 successfully would be to use it in the CCDA platform which is my favourite microphone circuit but its more "HiFi" than the original U47 circuit. The 5751 has a plate resistance of 58,000 ohms even if you parallel them like the STAM circuit you only have 29,000 ohms while configuring the 5751 as a CCDA circuit will yield an output impedance which will be closer to 600 ohms. The VF14m was a single pentode wired as a triode and had a resultant plate resistance of around 5000 ohms which is similar to our CM48T circuit using the GE/JAN5654W. However, the 5751 configured as a CCDA will nicely drive the T47 transformer and it will subtley have a better transient response than the U47 circuit and a smoother low end response. The CCDA circuit will deliver nearly 4db more headroom than the U47 circuit. When the T47 or BV08 is driven from 5000 ohms then there tends to be a bit more harmonics generated in the lower midrange to upper bass frequencies. The K47 in the original U47's a M49's had a brass surround and not the nylon. I have a sample of what looks like a 3U 6 micron skinned capsule here and it seems to have about 2db more lift in the high end and a little less low end than our AK47 in tests I did here. It did not sound bad and was quite pleasant sounding but was just a bit brighter than our AK47. Cheers, Dave aamicrophones.com
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Post by aamicrophones on Nov 14, 2017 20:04:59 GMT -6
This mic isn't about having a 47. Its about looking like you have a 47. I already figured this out a while ago. Hello, you are right!!! Classical recordists love our CM49, CM47ve and CM67se microphones big studios would love to replace their vintage microphones with ours but they keep telling me I need to make them look more like the original but they never have a problem with the sound. When you a scoring a film and have 40 musicians and multiple tube microphones up it only takes one failing vintage microphone to really mess up the budget. Our good friend Joseph Magee tells me it costs $50 a minute when he is recording on a scoring session. If you lose even a 10 minute scene because of a failing microphone it cost you $500 and 10 minutes less time to get a take. Also, Joe Carrell told me at Summer Namm that folks our often underwelmed when they finally get to use a U47. They expect it somehow to deliver a finished vocal, processing and all? The reason that its impossible to "clone" exactly a U47 is that no two U47's sound the same. The might have back in 1958 if they were selected at purchase but you are dealing with old school electronics. There were two different types of capsules and the K47 went through at least 3 different versions. There was also at least 3 different types of BV8 transformer versions used over the years. There was also a later version of U47's that used a 6CW4 Nuvistor tube. Even though folks tell me the don't sound the same I heard one on Harry Connick jr that sounded pretty amazing. Resistors that have at best 10% tolerances where today we use 1% resistors. Capacitors had 20% tolerances while today the we use 1% polystyrene capacitors between the capsule and tube. U47 Power supplies can easily vary plus or minus 10% from each other. Capsules could only be made within plus or minus 2db of each other if you were lucky. M7 capsules start to age the moment the PVC is poured and the PVC gets more brittle over time increasing the highs and tightening the low frequencies. The advantage of the WA47 is that it will be reliable, all WA47 microphones will be more consistent in sound from each other than the vintage U47's. The microphone will be quieter and have a few db more headroom plus the tube is much less costly when it needs to be replaced. The 7 pin gold pinned Neutriks connectors is much better in my experience than the older Tuchel. I couldn't build a Long Body U47, with a 5654W traditional circuit, large frame BV8 (T47) transformer and our AK47, put the microphone in the wooden box with HD shock-mount and vintage supply and sell it for $899 and I have very low overhead. So I have to tip my hat to Bryce bringing a microphone with these features to market at this price point. Cheers, Dave Thomas aamicrophones.com
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,934
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Post by ericn on Nov 14, 2017 22:06:30 GMT -6
This mic isn't about having a 47. Its about looking like you have a 47. I already figured this out a while ago. Hello, you are right!!! Classical recordists love our CM49, CM47ve and CM67se microphones big studios would love to replace their vintage microphones with ours but they keep telling me I need to make them look more like the original but they never have a problem with the sound. When you a scoring a film and have 40 musicians and multiple tube microphones up it only takes one failing vintage microphone to really mess up the budget. Our good friend Joseph Magee tells me it costs $50 a minute when he is recording on a scoring session. If you lose even a 10 minute scene because of a failing microphone it cost you $500 and 10 minutes less time to get a take. Also, Joe Carrell told me at Summer Namm that folks our often underwelmed when they finally get to use a U47. They expect it somehow to deliver a finished vocal, processing and all? The reason that its impossible to "clone" exactly a U47 is that no two U47's sound the same. The might have back in 1958 if they were selected at purchase but you are dealing with old school electronics. There were two different types of capsules and the K47 went through at least 3 different versions. There was also at least 3 different types of BV8 transformer versions used over the years. There was also a later version of U47's that used a 6CW4 Nuvistor tube. Even though folks tell me the don't sound the same I heard one on Harry Connick jr that sounded pretty amazing. Resistors that have at best 10% tolerances where today we use 1% resistors. Capacitors had 20% tolerances while today the we use 1% polystyrene capacitors between the capsule and tube. U47 Power supplies can easily vary plus or minus 10% from each other. Capsules could only be made within plus or minus 2db of each other if you were lucky. M7 capsules start to age the moment the PVC is poured and the PVC gets more brittle over time increasing the highs and tightening the low frequencies. The advantage of the WA47 is that it will be reliable, all WA47 microphones will be more consistent in sound from each other than the vintage U47's. The microphone will be quieter and have a few db more headroom plus the tube is much less costly when it needs to be replaced. The 7 pin gold pinned Neutriks connectors is much better in my experience than the older Tuchel. I couldn't build a Long Body U47, with a 5654W traditional circuit, large frame BV8 (T47) transformer and our AK47, put the microphone in the wooden box with HD shock-mount and vintage supply and sell it for $899 and I have very low overhead. So I have to tip my hat to Bryce bringing a microphone with these features to market at this price point. Cheers, Dave Thomas aamicrophones.com But but but it's supposed to be the audio silverbullet! That's what I have read, Dave your going against the audio internet !😎 I remember when we first started seeing 47 clones, a number of well known and not so well known engineers told me I can have a bunch that sound the same ! It doesn't matter if Southwest. Loses one the others will sound just like it ! As far as the looks as one guy used to say as close at fullco "it will get you laid", funny how important that factor is. On the subject of sameness, I asked a multiple Grammy wing engineer why he was using the AT4060 instead of all the useual suspects. His reply " If you ever say I said this I'll take my Buisness to sweetwater ( so even now no names) I walk in anywhere the 4060 sounds like a 4060, I can get to work make EQ, and dynamic changes get the sound I want no old mic syndrome bullshit. Look people don't get it it's all about time, you know how many times we wasted time because this ELAM was nothing like the ELAM we were thinking of, ok now we look like idiots cause somebody is paying me to know what sounds like what ! Well the AT4060 makes me look like the smartest guy in the audio world! So yeah, Dave I get it, in fact I get that if you can provide that your going to sell some mics. Now the thing is Dave even at the top of dollar range there are only a hand full of guys who are going to bend over again and again to make The customer happy and that's why if I'm not going to spend Flea, Shannon Rhodes or Lawson money I'm going to you ( though I'll probably spend the big bucks myself) if you had been around in my FullCo days I would have fought to sell your mics because you would have made my customers happy, ever tried to get AKG or Neumann to tweek the high end ? It's called a return, bstock to move and an unhappy customer !
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Post by jakeharris on Nov 15, 2017 2:36:15 GMT -6
With regulation you can hot swap the microphones as the supplies voltage don't vary under different loads (mike connected/no mike connected). Cheers, Dave This isn't good advice. When you switch on a PSU with mic plugged in, the B+ and heater lines gradually ramp up. When you hot-plug, you're shocking a cold circuit and tube with full voltage and current. Tubes never like to be shocked, whether electrically or mechanically.
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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 15, 2017 5:11:36 GMT -6
If the electrical flow is regulated I guess this shock is controlled, but yes that is what I was wondering about, if 100% power is suddenly hitting the cold mike, I don’t know?
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Post by EmRR on Nov 15, 2017 6:49:21 GMT -6
With regulation you can hot swap the microphones as the supplies voltage don't vary under different loads (mike connected/no mike connected). Cheers, Dave This isn't good advice. When you switch on a PSU with mic plugged in, the B+ and heater lines gradually ramp up. When you hot-plug, you're shocking a cold circuit and tube with full voltage and current. Tubes never like to be shocked, whether electrically or mechanically. With many regulated supplies, there is no ramp. It's on. I've run dozens of channels of tube amps on regulated supplies for over a decade with no failures. They can be hot-swapped if need be, though the thrown speaker cone appears to be the best reason not.
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Post by adamjbrass on Nov 15, 2017 8:07:01 GMT -6
This mic isn't about having a 47. Its about looking like you have a 47. I already figured this out a while ago. Also, Joe Carrell told me at Summer Namm that folks our often underwelmed when they finally get to use a U47. They expect it somehow to deliver a finished vocal, processing and all? That's what the Chandler Mic does! Nearly!
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Post by Ward on Nov 15, 2017 9:14:32 GMT -6
This isn't good advice. When you switch on a PSU with mic plugged in, the B+ and heater lines gradually ramp up. When you hot-plug, you're shocking a cold circuit and tube with full voltage and current. Tubes never like to be shocked, whether electrically or mechanically. With many regulated supplies, there is no ramp. It's on. I've run dozens of channels of tube amps on regulated supplies for over a decade with no failures. They can be hot-swapped if need be, though the thrown speaker cone appears to be the best reason not. Exception to that! Some of my old tube mics have tube powered or regulated power supplies and they do indeed 'ramp up'.
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Post by matt@IAA on Nov 15, 2017 9:17:14 GMT -6
That's not a clone of a 47 though.
The Warm capsule is almost certainly a custom variant k47 by 3U Audio.
I did read something about the WA47 perhaps being actually a clone or reengineering of a Church modified U47 because the Church circuit has a large capacitor and likes the 5751 tube.
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Post by EmRR on Nov 15, 2017 9:39:34 GMT -6
With many regulated supplies, there is no ramp. It's on. I've run dozens of channels of tube amps on regulated supplies for over a decade with no failures. They can be hot-swapped if need be, though the thrown speaker cone appears to be the best reason not. Exception to that! Some of my old tube mics have tube powered or regulated power supplies and they do indeed 'ramp up'. Sure, a tube regulated supply will ramp, a ramp can be put in but many do not. A non-regulated will have a degree of ramp.
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