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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 13, 2017 9:17:33 GMT -6
John K. has mentioned the Symphony Mk 1 can be found at a good price. I've wondered if it would sound better than my Apollo 8. The files I've heard done with the Symphony seem more cinematic. They're lush, warm and big, with a huge 3 D soundstage. The Apollo sounds good, but lacks that huge sense of space.
I don't know if it's the converters I like or other factors, but if the Symphony MK. 1 sounds better than my Apollo 8, I could conceivably sell one and buy the other and not lose money.
Any thoughts or experiences you can share would be appreciated.
* I have a Quad satellite, so I can still use some UAD plugs.
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Post by Tbone81 on Oct 13, 2017 10:24:35 GMT -6
I'm just playing devils advocate here, but it seems you already have really good conversion. Even if the Symphony turns out to be a little better, how much of a difference will that make and is your money better spent else where? IMHO, you're splitting hairs at this level. I'd rather spend the money on Mics, Compressors etc. Maybe another nice OB piece for your 2 bus. Thats my 2 cents anyway. Feel free to ignore all that if you're dead set on new converters though. Far be it from me to talk someone out of a purchase
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Oct 13, 2017 10:46:32 GMT -6
or better spent on room treatment
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Post by indiehouse on Oct 13, 2017 11:17:54 GMT -6
I'm just playing devils advocate here, but it seems you already have really good conversion. Even if the Symphony turns out to be a little better, how much of a difference will that make and is your money better spent else where? IMHO, you're splitting hairs at this level. I'd rather spend the money on Mics, Compressors etc. Maybe another nice OB piece for your 2 bus. Thats my 2 cents anyway. Feel free to ignore all that if you're dead set on new converters though. Far be it from me to talk someone out of a purchase That's kinda where I'm at with it at the moment. I'm on an BF Apollo 16 MKII, but I've been eyeing the Symphony MKII. I've got this feeling that the difference isn't as exaggerated as the internet says it is. Martin (don't take this the wrong way), but I see you throwing out these big, colorful adjectives quite often. Maybe it's not the converters making things "lush, warm, big with a huge 3D sound stage". Maybe it's more the guy/gal using those converters. (Besides, aren't the ideal converters supposed to be as neutral as possible?) Then again, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it's a Soyuz... Of course, doesn't help me stop drooling over gear. I've got to take a break from gear lusting. I'm noticing it's getting in the way lately.
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Post by indiehouse on Oct 13, 2017 11:41:08 GMT -6
BTW, ragan has shot out his Apollo 8 with a Symphony MKII. I believe he described the difference as "frustrating", which I found to be useful information. He'd be the guy to ask, though.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 13, 2017 11:44:30 GMT -6
Maybe Kcat will chime in, he's had both, including the BLA mod for the Apollo.
Indiehouse, you may well be right, but I know Kcat's tracks and style really well, and when he first got is Symphony Mk II, his tracks sounded bigger and better.
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Post by indiehouse on Oct 13, 2017 11:51:23 GMT -6
Maybe Kcat will chime in, he's had both, including the BLA mod for the Apollo. Indiehouse, you may well be right, but I know Kcat's tracks and style really well, and when he first got is Symphony Mk II, his tracks sounded bigger and better. Yeah, I don't know man. My research background tells me there's just too many variables to make any conclusions without a proper A/B comparison. I remember Matt selling his Apollo weeks (maybe even a month) before he got his Symphony. The auditory memory is measured in seconds. And we're talking converter differences of inches, not miles. I've no doubt the Symphony is better, though. Just how much better and what's that worth to you? That's the question(s). But, to each his own. Do what makes you happy. Life is short.
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Post by ragan on Oct 13, 2017 12:47:20 GMT -6
I did compare my BF Apollo to the Symphony MKII before settling on the MKII, but unfortunately I've never used a Symphony MKI so I can't speak to that.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 13, 2017 12:49:49 GMT -6
How would you describe the differences Ragan? I forgot you had the Symphony MK II
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Post by ChaseUTB on Oct 13, 2017 14:49:19 GMT -6
Martin John Butler Ask/ bribe Jeremy to come to your place and help you track for one hour. In that hour he can help you find optimal recording and mic position as well as setup a recording template so you can gain Stage better... you are on a blackface too... wow I thought you were on a SF... you converter is fine and def not the weak link b/c as far as I know, you do all recording in your untreated apt. ( if something has changed, and you got treatment, apologies ) From your clone thread What Jesse said in the other thread is what I was going to say! Until you track and mix in a good treated space and room, I don’t think a symphony or Apollo will change much.. Take a small piece of your budget and Hire someone to Mix one of your records you have tracked and see what they can achieve with your song.. you may be very surprised, you may not. The big rich blah blah blah adjectives you use to describe the symphony files is not due to the converter otherwise everyone could track wherever with whatever ( talent non factor as well ) and just run their sounds thru the magic converter and instantly get that “ radio ready #1on billboard “ sound ... If symphony truly did that apogee would have a monopoly on the converter/ interface market.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 13, 2017 15:13:29 GMT -6
I've thought about getting some help to get to the next level lately, so you're comments ring true. Unfortunately, I rent a NYC apartment, and have limited options when it comes to room treatments. I work in my living room, and my wife is already putting up with a lot, considering I'm working here so much. I really can't turn our living rom into a studio. If I had a small space that was dedicated as a music room, I'd go all out and get the room treated properly.
It'll all have to wait a bit. I hope to move within the next year or so, and a separate room is high on my priority list. I am quite sensitive to sound though, and when Kcat changed to his Symphony from his BF Apollo, I thought the difference wasn't subtle, and he hadn't changed anything, except the interface.
I not unhappy with the Apollo, it's just that if trading over to a Symphony MK 1 wouldn't cost me anything, I thought why not ask about it.
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Post by ragan on Oct 13, 2017 16:26:31 GMT -6
How would you describe the differences Ragan? I forgot you had the Symphony MK II I've described the difference as 'frustrating'. Frustrating because it doesn't wipe the floor with the BF Apollo. At all. But it does sound better to my ear. It makes, by comparison, the Apollo sound just a little cloudy and a tiny bit congested. But it's a pretty small difference. But, again back to the frustrating part, once I'd heard the MKII, I didn't want to give it up. It's so much more money for so many fewer features. The Apollo wipes the floor with the Symphony when it comes to bang for buck. But the Symphony does indeed sound a little better. And "a little better" on all your tracks adds up. When I come across tracks I did with the Apollo, now that my ear is used to the Symphony, I notice the difference more. But it's by no stretch of the imagination a major difference. And no surprise either, just ask our pal Cat 5. The topologies are so similar that he has mused about who copied who. I'm speaking purely of ADC here. On the DAC side, the Symphony is a lot better. It edged out the D Box in my comparisons, and that's saying something. I should also say, I bet I would have noticed the differences more if I'd had the LYD 48s when I was comparing them. They're just a helluva lot more revealing than anything else I've had in here. Also, re: your comments about Matt's swap from Apollo to MKII. Gotta be careful there too because, while I know exactly what you mean about the quality of his productions going up, he also right around that same time, switched to the WA87 and WA412 and started using Console 1. That mic/pre combo is a better match for his voice, much better, and I kinda think the Console 1 approach helped in his choices. As for your quandary about the Symphony MKI vs the BF Apollo, though I can't speak to it from experience (never used a MKI), I'd be surprised if it wasn't a lateral move. Different, but not objectively better. That's a guess though and none of this stuff comes anywhere near objectivity so who knows. I'll tell you what though, if the MKI cards keep dropping in value, I'm gonna scoop one up to put in my MKII chassis for more channels.
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Post by kcatthedog on Oct 13, 2017 17:07:36 GMT -6
and in this corner: Guess I should weigh in ?
converters lets see: mbox, 003, rme, apollo sf apollo l sf bla mod, 2192, burl b2, apollo bf and symphony mkii, also has s dbox thrown in the middle there are a year or two as well and had the apollo bla, b2 and 2192 here all at the same time
I can still remember very distinctly the first time I listened to a session I had recorded on my apollo bf but back on the symph mkii DA and their being a significant and or very apparent increase in sound stage, depth and your sense of whre things were in the mix.
I found too when I started recording with it, to me, simply pt the symph mkii was more revealing and natural, never a moment of regret.
Herb had the sf adn symph mk 1 and has mk1 wth thnderbrdge ?
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 13, 2017 17:14:47 GMT -6
So it seems the D/A might be the strongest improvement when comparing. I hear the bigger deeper soundstage kcat speaks of, but he has the MKII, and I'd love to hear a little more from MK I users. I'm in no rush, so it'll be fun to explore it a little more. The Apollo interface with the Console is easy to use, how is the Symphony?
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Post by ragan on Oct 13, 2017 17:21:29 GMT -6
So it seems the D/A might be the strongest improvement when comparing. I hear the bigger deeper soundstage kcat speaks of, but he has the MKII, and I'd love to hear a little more from MK I users. I'm in no rush, so it'll be fun to explore it a little more. The Apollo interface with the Console is easy to use, how is the Symphony? That's the other thing I was gonna mention. Symphony MKI (I think?) doesn't get to use the new Control app, which is much slicker and easier, like UAD Console. MKI uses Maestro, which works but is clunky.
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 13, 2017 17:37:11 GMT -6
I don’t think I’ve had he SmkI and BF Apollo in the same room...but by experience I would venture to say even the mkI DA was more likely the better sounding DA. I considered the DBox and MkI DA to be very similar and both to sound objectively better than the BF. But there’s nothing wrong at all with the BF. Then I thought the Svartbox DA was slightly better than those. I compared the Hilo and then the SB clocked with the Black Lion Micro mkIII to the Plain SB...and while I thought I could objectively hear a tighter bottom and possibly smoother top, I didn’t hear any improvement in soundstage or “depth.” I came to the conclusion that the difference wouldn’t make me make different mix decisions...so I didn’t pull the trigger.
AD is sooo much harder to quantify. I’ve had the Burl and it wasn’t a life changer for me.
I would suggest putting that money into your monitoring. A pair of Amphions or ATCs will make a much bigger improvement.
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Post by Guitar on Oct 13, 2017 17:59:49 GMT -6
I change my favorite converter so often I'm starting to put a little less emphasis on it.
I guess now that I have 5 different ones that are all "good" I am starting to be OK with using whichever one I need at a given time.
I think even if you had 2 or 3 on hand to swap around you'd start to feel a little less restless after a while.
A really important step for me was getting a "proper" monitor controller. There are lots out there, buy my semi-budget pick was the Drawmer MC2.1 and it's done wonders for me. Especially switching so many different sources and speakers easily, as well as the Dim, mute, etc stuff, and the big volume knob that doesn't sound bad like the cheap competitors do. It's sort of the central piece of the puzzle, and the thing that I reach for most on a daily basis in the "studio." So I put a lot of emphasis on it.
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Post by matt on Oct 13, 2017 18:01:47 GMT -6
I'd love to hear a little more from MK I users. Symphony MKI (I think?) doesn't get to use the new Control app, which is much slicker and easier, like UAD Console. MKI uses Maestro, which works but is clunky. This is correct, MK1 users like me are stuck on Maestro. I love the quality of the MK1 conversion. However I am not happy with Apogee's direction away from the MK1. Failing to port a version of Symphony Control on Mk1 to support the large and probably loyal (because Symphony's the best!) user base is not cool. Or smart. I also find it insulting that they call the MK2 "future proof" when not all MK1 modules are compatible and MK1 firmware upgrades require the connected Mac to be on OSX 10.10 Mavericks or earlier. In my opinion it is a case of forced obsolescence. And I bet they will do the same thing to MK2 users five years from now with MK3. It's a strategy. My next upgrade will not be an Apogee product. I normally do not get my knickers in a twist over this sort of thing but I have $4K into my MK1 and I don't see Apogee supporting it as I think they should. Sorry to rant Martin, but I think good product support is fundamental, and I don't see it here.
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Post by kcatthedog on Oct 13, 2017 18:25:12 GMT -6
ah come on JK, everybody has a right to their opinion andI think monitors are very personal ?
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 13, 2017 18:38:09 GMT -6
I'm SO SORRY! That was supposed to be a response to a PM and was not directed at Martin at all. I know it probably doesn't seem that way, but you guys know me well enough to know I don't roll that way.
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Post by Guitar on Oct 13, 2017 18:39:55 GMT -6
hehe, I did think it was out of character!
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 13, 2017 18:40:48 GMT -6
I think I accidentally deleted someone else's post too when I deleted mine. Sorry.
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Post by Quint on Oct 13, 2017 18:49:46 GMT -6
Symphony MKI (I think?) doesn't get to use the new Control app, which is much slicker and easier, like UAD Console. MKI uses Maestro, which works but is clunky. This is correct, MK1 users like me are stuck on Maestro. I love the quality of the MK1 conversion. However I am not happy with Apogee's direction away from the MK1. Failing to port a version of Symphony Control on Mk1 to support the large and probably loyal (because Symphony's the best!) user base is not cool. Or smart. I also find it insulting that they call the MK2 "future proof" when not all MK1 modules are compatible and MK1 firmware upgrades require the connected Mac to be on OSX 10.10 Mavericks or earlier. In my opinion it is a case of forced obsolescence. And I bet they will do the same thing to MK2 users five years from now with MK3. It's a strategy. My next upgrade will not be an Apogee product. I normally do not get my knickers in a twist over this sort of thing but I have $4K into my MK1 and I don't see Apogee supporting it as I think they should. Sorry to rant Martin, but I think good product support is fundamental, and I don't see it here. I really like what I've read about the new Lynx Aurora (n) interfaces. Though I'm not aware of how their routing software compares to Maestro or the newer Apogee routing software.
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Post by Guitar on Oct 13, 2017 19:02:05 GMT -6
Just noticed Drawmer released the CMC2 Compact Monitor Controller for $300.... really cool product. In case anyone needs one. Same as the big boys but stripped down on a few features.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 14, 2017 14:54:32 GMT -6
Now that you guys have mentioned that the MK I can't use the new interface, I probably won't bother. I like UAD's system.
That really is bad customer relations, not offering an upgrade to Mk I clients. Say what you will, UAD's had dozens of free upgrades and kept their promises to their customers. It takes them a while, but they do get it right the first time most of the time.
When they went to the blackface. (like a Mk II) they brought all the features they could to th silverface users and PC users.
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