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Post by swurveman on Oct 16, 2017 16:50:34 GMT -6
The thing is, Apogee made a fraudulent contract by claiming that the original Symphony was "future proof" and then releasing a new version, which on top of that doesn't support all the old cards, and the new software doesn't "work" with the old chassis. Also the whole point is it's supposed to be modular so you can expand as needed, but as many people have reported, you can't add more modules unless you want to risk unacceptable fan noise. The kluge vent mod does not address the additional card problem. This problem it appears was fixed in the MK II redesign. So I'm for example in the position of not knowing whether if I add more cards it will be too noisy, and not necessarily having support in the future. As far as I'm concerned they ripped me off and will not get anymore of my money. I won't be forced into a costly upgrade. All this would be okay if they offered a trade in program that did not cost $1000 dollars. That was the last offer I saw. I won't pay so much for an additional chassis that performs as the original should have in first place (minus the additional headphone amp) and then buy another card. Come to think of it, they already tried to screw us with the cost of the thunderbridge. The other factor is Apogee could very well screw over the MK II users if some design or manufacturing fault comes up. There are other companies that don't do this sort of thing, so they will get my business from now on. Problem is, this will continue to happen with every company. They just keep wanting to improve design to compete in this highly competitive market, I got burned too by UA. I’m just thankful Apogee was able to come out with the thunderbridge so I could use the legacy 16x converters on a newer thunderbolt system. I want to upgrade again with a newer interface, but because of all these companies changing at light speed I didn’t make the move yet. Still on 2012 macs w/SSD’s and older legacy equipment scared to update OSX...oh well, trying to hold off the inevitable for as long as I can. That is why I’m looking into analog boards and radar! Tired of all the crazy updating and I’m still not sold on ITB. It was a way to increase company revenue and it comes along with empty wallets and technology headaches. I have learned a great deal about software and hardware over the last couple decades. Wow, it has been that long...where does the time go? I don't know. I don't think that Apogee producing an expensive converter that had loud fan noise the more cards you used is improved design. I think Apogee just messed up and admitted it by quickly bringing out the MKII. They should have made good for all the people who got screwed by their bad design. Then, Apple comes out with a new Mac Pros that has expanded the PCIe addressing scheme . So, people with UAD-2 SOLO, DUO and QUAD cards can't use them on new Mac Pro. Do the UAD plugins on the UAD-2 OCTO cards- which work with the new Mac Pro PCIE addressing scheme - sound better? Will they run better to the point that it really matters for most people? That being said, I agree with you about being tired of the computer mess. I feel lucky that I bought a robust PC and went with RME/Lynx. I'm using the RME AES -32 PCIE cards. Is Thunderbolt's latency that much better? Makes you wonder-at least for pro audio- if the entire process is just greed driven by Apple, with lots of other vendors following where Apple goes.
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Post by ragan on Oct 16, 2017 16:53:45 GMT -6
UA releases Console 1 on FW wasn't caving, it was about sorting out all the problems with FW trying to support all the extra features and the real problem is FW's inherent bandwidth limitations vs tbolt PCI-e. UA had a special FW users beta group working on this and while it was definitely well after tbolt, the delay was also caused by UA's personal limitations and release schedules for its other products They did cave. UA originally stated that they weren't going to release Console 2 for non-TB Apollo's. There was, as expected, an uproar over this. I can't speak for others, but I never faulted UA for not being able to overcome FW limitations, as that pertains to those specific aspects of Console 1 vs Console 2. FW has bandwidth and speed limitations. I get it. What I, and many others, DID complain about was all of the other new Console 2 features, which had nothing to do with the inherent FW limitations, like scribble strips, plugin lists, etc. Why should I have to upgrade to a $500 TB card just to enjoy those basic features? It's all water under the bridge at this point because UA did the right thing (very slowly) and brought FW users up to Console 2. All this being said, this is why I'm likely moving away from all-in-one boxes. It's just too volatile of a landscape. I don't want the rest of the eggs in the basket to get hosed because of all of the types of things being discussed in this thread. The last few years with the Apollo have been an eye opener and I don't again want to go through lengthy waiting periods and compromises because I've sunk multiple eggs into one basket. In the future I want to be able to more cleanly sever ties with an interface when it doesn't meet my needs or I want something better. Some of that was why I left the Apollo platform too. I'm liking my studio more discrete, like you say. Conversion, pres, processing. Can swap things any time without dragging the other stuff into it. I think the Apollo is the best all in one box ever made, and if I needed or wanted that, I'd buy another one in a heartbeat. But, like you it seems, I'm moving away from that.
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Post by kcatthedog on Oct 16, 2017 17:29:00 GMT -6
I don't recall UA ever stating that and Gannon the UA rep is up at UA forum all the time ? I was up on that site pretty well daily for like the last 5 years when I was rocking my apollos, Actually, UA committed to getting console 2 for FW, and had to juggle their release schedules, Twin, Windoze etc., and but I guess we remember the past coding challenges differently, no matter
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Post by Quint on Oct 16, 2017 17:38:48 GMT -6
They did cave. UA originally stated that they weren't going to release Console 2 for non-TB Apollo's. There was, as expected, an uproar over this. I can't speak for others, but I never faulted UA for not being able to overcome FW limitations, as that pertains to those specific aspects of Console 1 vs Console 2. FW has bandwidth and speed limitations. I get it. What I, and many others, DID complain about was all of the other new Console 2 features, which had nothing to do with the inherent FW limitations, like scribble strips, plugin lists, etc. Why should I have to upgrade to a $500 TB card just to enjoy those basic features? It's all water under the bridge at this point because UA did the right thing (very slowly) and brought FW users up to Console 2. All this being said, this is why I'm likely moving away from all-in-one boxes. It's just too volatile of a landscape. I don't want the rest of the eggs in the basket to get hosed because of all of the types of things being discussed in this thread. The last few years with the Apollo have been an eye opener and I don't again want to go through lengthy waiting periods and compromises because I've sunk multiple eggs into one basket. In the future I want to be able to more cleanly sever ties with an interface when it doesn't meet my needs or I want something better. Some of that was why I left the Apollo platform too. I'm liking my studio more discrete, like you say. Conversion, pres, processing. Can swap things any time without dragging the other stuff into it. I think the Apollo is the best all in one box ever made, and if I needed or wanted that, I'd buy another one in a heartbeat. But, like you it seems, I'm moving away from that. Thing is, I was already largely there on the whole "discrete units" thing. I already owned a fair number of outboard compressors, eqs, preamps, etc. But four years ago I also was in the market for a new interface and I just kind of got seduced by the ability to use UAD plugins without having to pony up the cash for a Satellite, which I just wasn't willing to do. My time with the Apollo has been an interesting experiment but I'm likely going another way in the future unless the Apollo MKIII really kicks ass. We'll see.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 16, 2017 17:48:16 GMT -6
Down the road, I see keeping a couple of UAD satellites and finding a different set up as an interface. But the Apollo has certainly delivered on its promise. My upcoming album was done at home on the Apollo, and it's good enough to put my name on.
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Post by ragan on Oct 16, 2017 17:54:00 GMT -6
Indeed. And, though it's said constantly, it bears repeating: the Apollo wasn't anywhere near my weakest link.
Absolutely stunning records have been made with inferior conversion. Players, room, arrangement, engineering chops. Outweigh by an enormous amount conversion differences.
Still, I'll take all the help I can get and I prefer the sound of the Symphony.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Oct 16, 2017 18:29:16 GMT -6
I'm moving away from the DSP thing too. The biggest reason I got into the Apollo was for real-time tracking tools like tape echos, guitar sims, reverb, etc. But since going that route, I've decided that I don't want to have all of my eggs in one basket when it comes to interface and plugins. I've been shifting toward hardware (analog and digital) that works standalone without a computer and regardless of what interface I have. In the future, I simply want to be able to choose interfaces/converters based on sound, stability, i/o, and routing flexibility. That's it. I don't want to have to make compromises on sound or flexibility just to be able to use a guitar sim. I'll have dedicated hardware for that from now on. I just purchased a Two Notes C.A.B. and I'm liking it so far. Strymon also has some great tape delays in pedal format. Right now, I need the combo of native and DSP. I couldn't run with all native or all dsp...but can easily do it combined. Hybrid, Hybrid?
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Post by Quint on Oct 16, 2017 18:47:16 GMT -6
I don't recall UA ever stating that and Gannon the UA rep is up at UA forum all the time ? I was up on that site pretty well daily for like the last 5 years when I was rocking my apollos, Actually, UA committed to getting console 2 for FW, and had to juggle their release schedules, Twin, Windoze etc., and but I guess we remember the past coding challenges differently, no matter See, I remember UA originally saying they had no plans to make Console 2 available for FW Apollo. Either way, it's water under the bridge. I'll say this for UA, they were a novice interface maker with the Apollo, and had some scuffs and bruises along the way, but they generally have always made an effort to make things right, even if it took a little pressure from customers and took a while sometimes. The same can't be said about certain other interfaces makers out there.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 16, 2017 20:19:06 GMT -6
I recall UAD saying they were working on bringing console 2 to FW users, but that it would take quite a while. It is possible there was a lag before they said it would be available, I may have forgotten, it's been a while. So basically, I'll forget about the Mk1, and stop worrying about it until I can afford something else.
Maybe it's really a board I crave anyway, Kcat just got a modded Soundcraft board, and even on a quickie preliminary test track I heard, his sound which seemed just fine before, now seems like it was crunched into a little box compared to the board. One sounded like recorded music, one like a band was recorded live.
But his sound certainly improved when he got the Symphony. By the time I'm ready, there will probably be Apollo 3's and Symphony MK III's ;-)
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Post by johneppstein on Oct 16, 2017 20:44:13 GMT -6
They did cave. UA originally stated that they weren't going to release Console 2 for non-TB Apollo's. There was, as expected, an uproar over this. I can't speak for others, but I never faulted UA for not being able to overcome FW limitations, as that pertains to those specific aspects of Console 1 vs Console 2. FW has bandwidth and speed limitations. I get it. What I, and many others, DID complain about was all of the other new Console 2 features, which had nothing to do with the inherent FW limitations, like scribble strips, plugin lists, etc. Why should I have to upgrade to a $500 TB card just to enjoy those basic features? It's all water under the bridge at this point because UA did the right thing (very slowly) and brought FW users up to Console 2. All this being said, this is why I'm likely moving away from all-in-one boxes. It's just too volatile of a landscape. I don't want the rest of the eggs in the basket to get hosed because of all of the types of things being discussed in this thread. The last few years with the Apollo have been an eye opener and I don't again want to go through lengthy waiting periods and compromises because I've sunk multiple eggs into one basket. In the future I want to be able to more cleanly sever ties with an interface when it doesn't meet my needs or I want something better. Some of that was why I left the Apollo platform too. I'm liking my studio more discrete, like you say. Conversion, pres, processing. Can swap things any time without dragging the other stuff into it. I think the Apollo is the best all in one box ever made, and if I needed or wanted that, I'd buy another one in a heartbeat. But, like you it seems, I'm moving away from that. The service tech in me does NOT like the idea of losing the use of various other parts of my system just because one goes down or otherwise needs replacement.
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Oct 16, 2017 21:05:00 GMT -6
I think Apogee just messed up and admitted it by quickly bringing out the MKII. www.apogeedigital.com/blog/apogee-introduces-symphony-io-mk-iiAnaheim, California, January 19, 2016 - Apogee announces Symphony MK2. "Since its release in 2010, the first generation Symphony I/O..." So, 5+ years of development time is considered "quick"? Everyone in this thread who is complaining about manufacturers abandoning gear needs to realize that it's the manufacturers trying to keep up with the Operating System developers. Hell, did none of you get that email from SoundRadix saying "Don't Upgrade to High Sierra!!!" ? Especially the part where they said "Mac OSX has dropped support for Carbon in High Sierra". duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=394010 if you didn't get the email. Do you guys remember when Avid dropped support for RTAS and introduced AAX?? Lol newsflash!! This just in!! Computer hardware and software manufacturers release updates to their products much more frequently than expected causing discontinuation of early versions! Early Adopters complain like they've never owned a computer before with an Intel CPU! Extra!! Extra!! Read all about it!! media.tenor.com/images/4567064c9fdd8987122e7979d86a6d85/tenor.gif
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Post by Guitar on Oct 16, 2017 21:28:20 GMT -6
I remember UA announcing "better software for you firewire guys soon...within the year" Then there was an entire 12+ months more of "almost there, can't say yet, looking optimistic, hold tite folks>"
They did get there, though.
And even better, I finally went full PC Win 10 Thunderbolt sometime a little less than a year ago. Feeling really good about all of it right now.
Just built my brother a new Tbolt 3 computer today, going to do one for myself in November. That way I'll, hopefully, be ahead of any interface changes for a while.
If you thought SSD were good boot drives, you won't believe M.2, wow, less than 5 seconds to windows desktop. That thing is the size of a piece of gum. Technology is incredible.
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Post by kcatthedog on Oct 17, 2017 0:39:25 GMT -6
@monkey any interest in a pcbuild thread ? guitfiddler gets us back to the pro radar idea too Quint I moved to the symphony mkii for hoped for better sonics and as I never tracked with ua plugs and wanted to experiment with OB which I found more visceral and engaging, so essentially I am doing the hybrid thing but now have 16 channels of real time conversion and eq (4 band), 4 real sub groups, 6 aux and a master summing stereo section whose specs based on Jim's mods put it into high end ssl sonic territory: if plugs ins were geography, I'm not in Kansas anymore ! I want to keep going and experiment with my older fx box and get a good 2 bus eq, probably the kush Electra b stock when I have the dough. I am still using some plugs while mixing but looking for the majority of the sonics in real gear and better conversion !
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Oct 17, 2017 2:01:05 GMT -6
@kcat did you get a 2nd card for your symphony? You said you have 16 channels now
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Post by kcatthedog on Oct 17, 2017 4:51:48 GMT -6
I looked but couldn't find one. Wiz suggested a cheaper option which was a behringer ada8200,just to try out more channels without a big expense. I found a b stock new on line for $170 so got it.
Again part of the experiment, but I am still looking for used symph mki, are a deal on the symph mkii 16.
The guy with the used 16 symph mki card basically never really came clean about how he was misleading me, didn't want to let me test the card and still wanted big bucks for what was probably a 5-6 year old card, so I passed, could buy a new moto 16a for less money !
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Post by swurveman on Oct 17, 2017 7:46:51 GMT -6
I think Apogee just messed up and admitted it by quickly bringing out the MKII. www.apogeedigital.com/blog/apogee-introduces-symphony-io-mk-iiAnaheim, California, January 19, 2016 - Apogee announces Symphony MK2. "Since its release in 2010, the first generation Symphony I/O..." So, 5+ years of development time is considered "quick"? Everyone in this thread who is complaining about manufacturers abandoning gear needs to realize that it's the manufacturers trying to keep up with the Operating System developers. Hell, did none of you get that email from SoundRadix saying "Don't Upgrade to High Sierra!!!" ? Especially the part where they said "Mac OSX has dropped support for Carbon in High Sierra". duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=394010 if you didn't get the email. Do you guys remember when Avid dropped support for RTAS and introduced AAX?? Lol newsflash!! This just in!! Computer hardware and software manufacturers release updates to their products much more frequently than expected causing discontinuation of early versions! Early Adopters complain like they've never owned a computer before with an Intel CPU! Extra!! Extra!! Read all about it!! media.tenor.com/images/4567064c9fdd8987122e7979d86a6d85/tenor.gifMy "quick" comment was based on the perception of buyers that the MKI was "future proof". If you bought a "future proof" MKI in 2014 it was quick. 5 years is pretty quick for the future to come, but at least Apogee buyers learned what the word future means in Apogees terms. I do understand that Apple and Microsoft are the elephant in the room for the manufacturers. I do remember when Avid went to AAX. Waves did the transition quickly. UAD not so much. I've had Waves plugins since 1996 and the first one's I bought still work on my Windows based system. My RME drivers are 7 years old and both the hardware drivers and software updates have worked with Windows upgrades. Myabe I've been lucky. maybe the "new windows" will make them obsolete. I hope not. We'll see. I do wonder how many advances there really are in the sound quality of software plugins. I see the advantage of tha Apollo and having the ability to put plugins on channels while tracking, but does a UAD LA2A sound better than it did 7 years ago? I also wonder about the advances of , for example, Thunderbolt's new PCIE achitecture vs the PCIE architecture I use for my RME AES cards.
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Post by kcatthedog on Oct 17, 2017 8:00:26 GMT -6
Well if you are comparing the UA la 2a mkii to the mki the answer would be yes the plug in sounds better.
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Oct 17, 2017 10:34:38 GMT -6
You can still use most of the MK1 modules in the MK2 chassis. Those old analog in/digital out cards are what can't be used. I can understand all of the people who own those being butt-hurt lol
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Oct 17, 2017 11:25:54 GMT -6
Anyone who bought a silverface Apollo would also be butt-hurt if they bought it a couple months before the blackface ones came out. I think the only company who hasn't released a new interface would be metric Halo. Everyone else (Motu, focusrite, etc) has pumped out new interfaces in the past couple years so it's not like we can't expect new interfaces from companies every couple years. It's kind of ridiculous to think that future-proof implies that we are not going to get new products that surpass the old ones.
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Post by ragan on Oct 17, 2017 11:39:27 GMT -6
Anyone who bought a silverface Apollo would also be butt-hurt if they bought it a couple months before the blackface ones came out. I think the only company who hasn't released a new interface would be metric Halo. Everyone else (Motu, focusrite, etc) has pumped out new interfaces in the past couple years so it's not like we can't expect new interfaces from companies every couple years. It's kind of ridiculous to think that future-proof implies that we are not going to get new products that surpass the old ones. But at the same time, those other companies don't brag up their interfaces as "future proof", Apogee did.
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Oct 17, 2017 11:42:26 GMT -6
I think they're referring to how you won't need to upgrade after you get it, because it's as good as it gets.
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Post by adamjbrass on Oct 17, 2017 11:47:41 GMT -6
Anyone who bought a silverface Apollo would also be butt-hurt if they bought it a couple months before the blackface ones came out. I think the only company who hasn't released a new interface would be metric Halo. Everyone else (Motu, focusrite, etc) has pumped out new interfaces in the past couple years so it's not like we can't expect new interfaces from companies every couple years. It's kind of ridiculous to think that future-proof implies that we are not going to get new products that surpass the old ones. and a lot of folks are upset that MH has not updated, or followed through yet. Funny how circular this kinda thing can be. Computer Interfacing Technology is so much fun! heh ;-P
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Post by swurveman on Oct 17, 2017 11:54:41 GMT -6
Well if you are comparing the UA la 2a mkii to the mki the answer would be yes the plug in sounds better. Good thing neither sound as good as my Waves LA2A's!! I kid.... Is UAD really calling it's plugins MKI and MKII now? I stopped buying their stuff. So, I haven't been up to snuff with the lingo thing.
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Post by kcatthedog on Oct 17, 2017 12:02:12 GMT -6
From time to time UA does a complete re modelling of gear creating a mkii. Typically they add anything that was omitted in the first version and one would presume current modelling would be better thaa that done 5-10 years ago.
Normally, the original plug in get renamed to Legacy and when you purchase the new bundle it includes the legacy and eh mkii versions.
UA used to let owners of the original mki buy the mkii for half price $150 of the new mkii plug but stopped that over the last year.
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Post by ragan on Oct 17, 2017 13:22:01 GMT -6
I think they're referring to how you won't need to upgrade after you get it, because it's as good as it gets. Really? I don't think so. They were talking up how you can expand and change modules to fit your changing needs, thus alleviating the need to upgrade the whole interface. Which is totally true, as long as you stay in older operating systems, are ok with fan noise issues and don't mind using Maestro while everyone else gets the newer, better app. I'm a happy MKII user but it's pretty clear why MKI folks feel ill-treated.
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