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Post by ChaseUTB on Oct 15, 2017 12:49:43 GMT -6
Well I have to disagree with Kcat on one thing... the Apollo came out in 2012 and my 2012 9.1 mbp 15.5 already had a TB port... It was definitely not three years that the Apollo Quad was sold before the TB card was offered for purchase and or given to select Apollo purchasers.. My mbp was the last mbp to have Fw800, it was pretty much forced by UAD to make the TB card decision.. would y’all have preferred they released a brand new Apollo that was TB only do your FW Apollo would be obsolete Nope they Future proofed it some got it for free, others got it discounted, others needed the functionality and purchased the TB card right away...
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Post by kcatthedog on Oct 15, 2017 13:39:53 GMT -6
The tbolt 1 card was available for the sf apollo but as was said above for $590.
UA starting giving people tb1 and tb2 cards about 3 years after it the apollo launched.
The apollo was always designed with the tbolt PCI-e slot so I don't think it was to directly related to apple.
Also, as the FW problems mounted and I had many, I think UA knew from the beginning tbolt PCI-e was really the way to go?
Anyway, all water under the bridge, my tbolt PCI-e apollo system with the Octo was bullet proof , but I wouldn't go back now.
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 15, 2017 14:27:52 GMT -6
Fair enough. I got tired of the DSP thing and sold my UAD plugs once I'd switched from Apollo to Symphony. I miss a couple of them (reverbs/delays) but all in all it was a good move. I'm moving away from the DSP thing too. The biggest reason I got into the Apollo was for real-time tracking tools like tape echos, guitar sims, reverb, etc. But since going that route, I've decided that I don't want to have all of my eggs in one basket when it comes to interface and plugins. I've been shifting toward hardware (analog and digital) that works standalone without a computer and regardless of what interface I have. In the future, I simply want to be able to choose interfaces/converters based on sound, stability, i/o, and routing flexibility. That's it. I don't want to have to make compromises on sound or flexibility just to be able to use a guitar sim. I'll have dedicated hardware for that from now on. I just purchased a Two Notes C.A.B. and I'm liking it so far. Strymon also has some great tape delays in pedal format. Right now, I need the combo of native and DSP. I couldn't run with all native or all dsp...but can easily do it combined.
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Post by Quint on Oct 15, 2017 14:34:25 GMT -6
I'm moving away from the DSP thing too. The biggest reason I got into the Apollo was for real-time tracking tools like tape echos, guitar sims, reverb, etc. But since going that route, I've decided that I don't want to have all of my eggs in one basket when it comes to interface and plugins. I've been shifting toward hardware (analog and digital) that works standalone without a computer and regardless of what interface I have. In the future, I simply want to be able to choose interfaces/converters based on sound, stability, i/o, and routing flexibility. That's it. I don't want to have to make compromises on sound or flexibility just to be able to use a guitar sim. I'll have dedicated hardware for that from now on. I just purchased a Two Notes C.A.B. and I'm liking it so far. Strymon also has some great tape delays in pedal format. Right now, I need the combo of native and DSP. I couldn't run with all native or all dsp...but can easily do it combined. I'm actually talking more in terms of not using plugins at all, during the tracking stage anyway. Rather than using something like a guitar sim from UAD or a native alternative, I'd rather use a real amp through something like the Two Notes C.A.B. and leave all computer based concerns behind. My Strymon Deco and El Capistan have similarly replaced any need to use tape delay plugins on the way in.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 15, 2017 14:39:35 GMT -6
The only issue with the Thunderbolt card was really the price. Most of us bought it thinking maybe we'd get Thunderbolt later, and we knew it was $500. When they began giving them away with new Apollos, early adopters felt a little burnt, but UAD hadn't done anything wrong, in fact, they improved the Apollo by including Thunderbolt.
Where they tripped up, is once they included Thunderbolt with new units, they should have offered early adopters a T-Bolt card at their cost, and thrown in a free plug, or at least $100 voucher. No one could rationally complain about that.
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Post by indiehouse on Oct 15, 2017 14:56:19 GMT -6
I'm moving away from the DSP thing too. The biggest reason I got into the Apollo was for real-time tracking tools like tape echos, guitar sims, reverb, etc. But since going that route, I've decided that I don't want to have all of my eggs in one basket when it comes to interface and plugins. I've been shifting toward hardware (analog and digital) that works standalone without a computer and regardless of what interface I have. In the future, I simply want to be able to choose interfaces/converters based on sound, stability, i/o, and routing flexibility. That's it. I don't want to have to make compromises on sound or flexibility just to be able to use a guitar sim. I'll have dedicated hardware for that from now on. I just purchased a Two Notes C.A.B. and I'm liking it so far. Strymon also has some great tape delays in pedal format. Right now, I need the combo of native and DSP. I couldn't run with all native or all dsp...but can easily do it combined. It really extends the life of the computer. I'm using a combo of native, dsp and hardware. My 2012 Mac mini still doesn't break a sweat.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Oct 15, 2017 15:46:54 GMT -6
The tbolt 1 card was available for the sf apollo but as was said above for $590. UA starting giving people tb1 and tb2 cards about 3 years after it the apollo launched. The apollo was always designed with the tbolt PCI-e slot so I don't think it was to directly related to apple. Also, as the FW problems mounted and I had many, I think UA knew from the beginning tbolt PCI-e was really the way to go? Anyway, all water under the bridge, my tbolt PCI-e apollo system with the Octo was bullet proof , but I wouldn't go back now. The SF original Apollo release was in spring of 2012, March 25th to be exact. It was not 2015 when people had the issues, the BF was already released for Messe for April 15, 2015...
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Post by guitfiddler on Oct 15, 2017 16:52:42 GMT -6
Well, I don't have a dog in this fight since I haven't used either one, but I'd just like to interject something about marketing. Quite often a manufacturer will use "features" a.k.a. "bang for the buck" to gain a marketing advantage over a competing product (or products) that has/have superior performance in the core function. And often the company that concentrates on the core function will have a superior, but simpler, product. Just sayin', not taking either side. Hey John, How do you like your SC DC2020? This video in the beginning looks nice!
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Post by Quint on Oct 15, 2017 17:04:44 GMT -6
The only issue with the Thunderbolt card was really the price. Most of us bought it thinking maybe we'd get Thunderbolt later, and we knew it was $500. When they began giving them away with new Apollos, early adopters felt a little burnt, but UAD hadn't done anything wrong, in fact, they improved the Apollo by including Thunderbolt. Where they tripped up, is once they included Thunderbolt with new units, they should have offered early adopters a T-Bolt card at their cost, and thrown in a free plug, or at least $100 voucher. No one could rationally complain about that. Well, also don't forget that Console 2 was originally ONLY going to be available for TB users. So that also added some heartburn. Not only did early adopters not get the TB card for free, but if they wanted to experience the improvements to Console that they had been asking about for some time, they would have to buy the $500 card. Eventually UA caved and agreed to make Console 2 available to FW users as well. Though by that point in time, I had already gone ahead and bought the card.
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Post by kcatthedog on Oct 15, 2017 17:48:20 GMT -6
"The SF original Apollo release was in spring of 2012, March 25th to be exact. It was not 2015 when people had the issues, the BF was already released for Messe for April 15, 2015"
Not certain what your point is or what issues you are referring to ?
No offence, but I,Ragan and Martin are 3 of the early adopters who hiked up with CHerbie, cowboycoalminer's gs apollo thread that started back in 2012. We were all up almost daily for years?
So, not certain what the issue is with what I wrote as it's factually accurate., I bought my SF as soon as it was released in Canada, ran it both FW and tbolt 1 and 2 cards, had it bla modded and had a bf and ran FW satalites and Octo tbolt PCI-e:kind of know that story cold ?
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Post by guitfiddler on Oct 16, 2017 1:24:14 GMT -6
I'm looking to go back to hard disk system and get away from Computer system all together. Analog board and Radar maybe!!!
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Post by adamjbrass on Oct 16, 2017 6:51:08 GMT -6
I really still like my Apogee mk1. Which I have had since they designed it. I think it sounds really nice. Its soft sounding. I have not compared it to the blackface apollo. I though the first apollo I compared it to had much less low end and a way sharper sound. less center image, UA maybe wider. More britle to my ears. The Mk1 is softer and deeper. I would probably totally agree with Martins Comments; But I would like to Take the Acid Test myself. The Apogee has great headroom and its more forgiving when peaks reach too hot. I have mine connected to a Symphony 64 pcie card and I think I am pulling around 4ms +/- round trip latency with PT at 64 samples.
I am sure I will replace this system at some point, but it has served me very well over the last trek,
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Post by kcatthedog on Oct 16, 2017 8:00:14 GMT -6
UA releases Console 1 on FW wasn't caving, it was about sorting out all the problems with FW trying to support all the extra features and the real problem is FW's inherent bandwidth limitations vs tbolt PCI-e.
UA had a special FW users beta group working on this and while it was definitely well after tbolt, the delay was also caused by UA's personal limitations and release schedules for its other products
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Post by ChaseUTB on Oct 16, 2017 8:16:28 GMT -6
@kcatthedaog
Because you made a post at the top of the page 2 saying there is a bunch of Misinformation. You were trying to correct people and then spread more false info. Go look at the dates of the releases if you don’t believe me ( since u don’t and think the t bolt card happened 3 years after the release of the SF Apollo, which it didn’t )
I even said I agreed with all of your post aside from the dates and you had them mixed up.
I included the dates of the releases of the UA Apollo mk1 SF and BF mk2 in my last post. I went thru the t bolt card issue as well and have my emails saved if you want to continue disagreeing with me.
I can admit when I am mistaken or wrong, however now is not one of those times. I don’t need a thread on GS to validate my purchase date I have a receipt.
Edit : maybe there was another T bolt card fiasco I am unaware of and you may be speaking to that, so it maybe we are both right ..
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Post by matt on Oct 16, 2017 10:27:25 GMT -6
I really still like my Apogee mk1. I am sure I will replace this system at some point, but it has served me very well over the last trek, For the record, I really like the sonic quality of mine too. My concern is that I will be stuck long-term on OSX Sierra due to a lack of firmware support for High Sierra and whatever comes after that. But I hope Apogee proves me wrong! If they were to step up and continue to support the MK1, I would not see a need to migrate to a new converter for the foreseeable future.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 16, 2017 10:35:13 GMT -6
To be stuck with old software is a real drag. I wouldn't get one for that reason alone. I realize all things digital have a lifespan, but I can't go back to an old operating system just to buy a Mk I Symphony.
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Post by joseph on Oct 16, 2017 10:48:39 GMT -6
I really still like my Apogee mk1. I am sure I will replace this system at some point, but it has served me very well over the last trek, For the record, I really like the sonic quality of mine too. My concern is that I will be stuck long-term on OSX Sierra due to a lack of firmware support for High Sierra and whatever comes after that. But I hope Apogee proves me wrong! If they were to step up and continue to support the MK1, I would not see a need to migrate to a new converter for the foreseeable future. The thing is, Apogee made a fraudulent contract by claiming that the original Symphony was "future proof" and then releasing a new version, which on top of that doesn't support all the old cards, and the new software doesn't "work" with the old chassis. Also the whole point is it's supposed to be modular so you can expand as needed, but as many people have reported, you can't add more modules unless you want to risk unacceptable fan noise. The kluge vent mod does not address the additional card problem. This problem it appears was fixed in the MK II redesign. So I'm for example in the position of not knowing whether if I add more cards it will be too noisy, and not necessarily having support in the future. As far as I'm concerned they ripped me off and will not get anymore of my money. I won't be forced into a costly upgrade. All this would be okay if they offered a trade in program that did not cost $1000 dollars. That was the last offer I saw. I won't pay so much for an additional chassis that performs as the original should have in first place (minus the additional headphone amp) and then buy another card. Come to think of it, they already tried to screw us with the cost of the thunderbridge. The other factor is Apogee could very well screw over the MK II users if some design or manufacturing fault comes up. There are other companies that don't do this sort of thing, so they will get my business from now on.
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Post by matt on Oct 16, 2017 11:36:39 GMT -6
For the record, I really like the sonic quality of mine too. releasing a new version, which on top of that doesn't support all the old cards, and the new software doesn't "work" with the old chassis. Also the whole point is it's supposed to be modular so you can expand as needed, but as many people have reported, you can't add more modules unless you want to risk unacceptable fan noise. The kluge vent mod does not address the additional card problem. This problem it appears was fixed in the MK II redesign. I have one of the unsupported cards, the 16 digital in/16 analog out, which makes the MK2 an expensive non-starter for me since I'd have to replace the card too. I run two cards, the other is the 8x8 analog in/out, so I guess I'm lucky that I've never had the fan noise issue. I get to my 8-core Trashcan via a Thunderbridge, which is stable but I'm not sure it's as fast as a PCIE card would be. Which of course I can't do with a Trashcan. I've never tested it for round-trip latency but I can't run at 32 samples, and even 64 taxes CPU more than I like. I'd like to connect to my Mac directly via Thunderbolt and get rid of the Thunderbridge, which means getting rid of the MK1 too. Since my current hybrid mix rig requires 20 outputs, replacing the MK1 is an expensive proposition any way you look at it. Honestly, it did not enter my mind when I bought the Symphony that I'd be considering replacing it three years later. Perhaps I should have known better.
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Post by joseph on Oct 16, 2017 11:47:48 GMT -6
releasing a new version, which on top of that doesn't support all the old cards, and the new software doesn't "work" with the old chassis. Also the whole point is it's supposed to be modular so you can expand as needed, but as many people have reported, you can't add more modules unless you want to risk unacceptable fan noise. The kluge vent mod does not address the additional card problem. This problem it appears was fixed in the MK II redesign. I have one of the unsupported cards, the 16 digital in/16 analog out, which makes the MK2 an expensive non-starter for me since I'd have to replace the card too. I run two cards, the other is the 8x8 analog in/out, so I guess I'm lucky that I've never had the fan noise issue. I get to my 8-core Trashcan via a Thunderbridge, which is stable but I'm not sure it's as fast as a PCIE card would be. Which of course I can't do with a Trashcan. I've never tested it for round-trip latency but I can't run at 32 samples, and even 64 taxes CPU more than I like. I'd like to connect to my Mac directly via Thunderbolt and get rid of the Thunderbridge, which means getting rid of the MK1 too. Since my current hybrid mix rig requires 20 outputs, replacing the MK1 is an expensive proposition any way you look at it. Honestly, it did not enter my mind when I bought the Symphony that I'd be considering replacing it three years later. Perhaps I should have known better. Exactly. This is why I frankly do not understand the people defending them. Mostly at GS they are new MKII users. We invested in a modular system with unknown at the time but serious caveats now, that was supposed to be supported which their moves suggest they'd prefer to be obsolete. I also need more outputs. Maybe I'll get one of the analog out cards then since it seems to run for you without the fan noise. My room is not that hot, but I really don't want to make a 1500 mistake for a used card, and I don't want Apogee getting my money through a dealer.
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Post by guitfiddler on Oct 16, 2017 11:48:33 GMT -6
For the record, I really like the sonic quality of mine too. My concern is that I will be stuck long-term on OSX Sierra due to a lack of firmware support for High Sierra and whatever comes after that. But I hope Apogee proves me wrong! If they were to step up and continue to support the MK1, I would not see a need to migrate to a new converter for the foreseeable future. The thing is, Apogee made a fraudulent contract by claiming that the original Symphony was "future proof" and then releasing a new version, which on top of that doesn't support all the old cards, and the new software doesn't "work" with the old chassis. Also the whole point is it's supposed to be modular so you can expand as needed, but as many people have reported, you can't add more modules unless you want to risk unacceptable fan noise. The kluge vent mod does not address the additional card problem. This problem it appears was fixed in the MK II redesign. So I'm for example in the position of not knowing whether if I add more cards it will be too noisy, and not necessarily having support in the future. As far as I'm concerned they ripped me off and will not get anymore of my money. I won't be forced into a costly upgrade. All this would be okay if they offered a trade in program that did not cost $1000 dollars. That was the last offer I saw. I won't pay so much for an additional chassis that performs as the original should have in first place (minus the additional headphone amp) and then buy another card. Come to think of it, they already tried to screw us with the cost of the thunderbridge. The other factor is Apogee could very well screw over the MK II users if some design or manufacturing fault comes up. There are other companies that don't do this sort of thing, so they will get my business from now on. Problem is, this will continue to happen with every company. They just keep wanting to improve design to compete in this highly competitive market, I got burned too by UA. I’m just thankful Apogee was able to come out with the thunderbridge so I could use the legacy 16x converters on a newer thunderbolt system. I want to upgrade again with a newer interface, but because of all these companies changing at light speed I didn’t make the move yet. Still on 2012 macs w/SSD’s and older legacy equipment scared to update OSX...oh well, trying to hold off the inevitable for as long as I can. That is why I’m looking into analog boards and radar! Tired of all the crazy updating and I’m still not sold on ITB. It was a way to increase company revenue and it comes along with empty wallets and technology headaches. I have learned a great deal about software and hardware over the last couple decades. Wow, it has been that long...where does the time go?
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Post by matt on Oct 16, 2017 12:14:35 GMT -6
it did not enter my mind when I bought the Symphony that I'd be considering replacing it three years later. Perhaps I should have known better. I also need more outputs. Maybe I'll get one of the analog out cards then since it seems to run for you without the fan noise. If I decide to sell my MK1 I'll post here on RGO first. i'd consider selling the 16x16 card separately. Won't be until next year though, I'm still paying off my PMC twotwo setup!
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Post by johneppstein on Oct 16, 2017 12:31:24 GMT -6
Hey John, How do you like your SC DC2020? This video in the beginning looks nice! Good question! I have mixed feelings about it. First off, support from Harman is terrible. The touch screens have a rep for going bad and they're unobtainium. There is an app to use the screen of an outboard computer and a mouse, but that's rather kludgy and IIRC we had trouble getting it to work when we tried it. My screen is streaky but does work. I believe control for this is over RS232....(!) Harman does say they still have documentation. I did get manuals with mine, but they could be a bit more comprehensive, IMO. My console has one bad fader motor, which I had on order (through my dealer) for over 5 years and never came. (I gave up on that after my dealer died. Thanks, Harman!) The console is only semi-modular, with buckets of 8 channels, which is something of a PITA, but fortunately it hasn't really had any serious problems except as noted above. I recently found a spare channel bucket and center section used, untested. Have not tested them yet, but there ought to be at least one fader motor that works. The spare center section turned out to be for the surround version, which was not stated in the listing, but I've kept it in hopes that the screen is good and to have spare parts for the onboard computer, which the board won't function without. I've been told it should be possible to bypass it but I dunno - the integration is very tight. The computer controls a LOT of stuff, including metering and some aspects of routing. Automation is flying faders and mutes, Soundcraft's own proprietary system. The computer is very touchy about power. My old place was over a deli and the computer would reset the board (or simply freeze) every time the coolers kicked. That was fixed with an APC power regulating/conditioning box. We also gave it its own power circuit, which it does not have at the new place. Very occasionally the computer will reboot or freeze and needs to be restarted but it's very infrequent. We don't use the automation. Gave up on it when we had problems syncing properly to the Studer, but that might not be the board's fault, I might need a card or two for the Studer that I don't have to make it work properly. I would be an issue for recallability if we were doing a lot of commercial work but we're not so have not got into dealing with it. It has MIDI control, so it WILL sync with a DAW if we wanted to, and has onboard transport controls, which would be very convenient if we actually used them. As a console, I pretty much like it. It could maybe use a couple more aux busses, but it's not that big a deal. The EQ is pretty nice - it's split, so you can assign EQ to either path or split it between both. Sound quality is pretty good - no complaints there. Mine is the 32 channel version with the built-in patchbay, which means it has EDAC I/O except for the mic ins and a few computer connections (which we don't use). Fortunately my purchase price ($6,000) included an immense pile of cabling, including the necessary EDACs, otherwise things could have got a lot more expensive, fast. As it was some of the EDACs needed repinning, so I had to buy tools and pins, but that's nothing compared to the cost of having to do all that cable from scratch. We did run out of room in the patchbay and had to add an outboard bay in one of the racks. Patchbay is TT. I do wish it was an API, but the days of $6,000 APIs are long gone.....
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Post by guitfiddler on Oct 16, 2017 12:35:20 GMT -6
Hey John, How do you like your SC DC2020? This video in the beginning looks nice! Good question! I have mixed feelings about it. First off, support from Harman is terrible. The touch screens have a rep for going bad and they're unobtainium. There is an app to use the screen of an outboard computer and a mouse, but that's rather kludgy and IIRC we had trouble getting it to work when we tried it. My screen is streaky but does work. I believe control for this is over RS232....(!) Harman does say they still have documentation. I did get manuals with mine, but they could be a bit more comprehensive, IMO. My console has one bad fader motor, which I had on order for over 5 years and never came. The console is only semi-modular, with buckets of 8 channels, which is something of a PITA, but fortunately it hasn't really had any serious problems except as noted above. I recently found a spare channel bucket and center section used, untested. Have not tested them yet, but there ought to be at least one fader motor that works. The spare center section turned out to be for the surround version, which was not stated in the listing, but I've kept it in hopes that the screen is good and to have spare parts for the onboard computer, which the board won't function without. I've been told it should be possible to bypass it but I dunno - the integration is very tight. The computer controls a LOT of stuff, including metering and some aspects of routing. Automation is flying faders and mutes, Soundcraft's own proprietary system. The computer is very touchy about power. My old place was over a deli and the computer would reset the board (or simply freeze) every time the coolers kicked. That was fixed with an APC power regulating/conditioning box. We also gave it its own power circuit, which it does not have at the new place. Very occasionally the computer will reboot or freeze and needs to be restarted but it's very infrequent. We don't use the automation. Gave up on it when we had problems syncing properly to the Studer, but that might not be the board's fault, I might need a card or two for the Studer that I don't have to make it work properly. I would be an issue for recallability if we were doing a lot of commercial work but we're not so have not got into dealing with it. It has MIDI control, so it WILL sync with a DAW if we wanted to, and has onboard transport controls, which would be very convenient if we actually used them. As a console, I pretty much like it. It could maybe use a couple more aux busses, but it's not that big a deal. The EQ is pretty nice - it's split, so you can assign EQ to either path or split it between both. Sound quality is pretty good - no complaints there. Mine is the 32 channel version with the built-in patchbay, which means it has EDAC I/O except for the mic ins and a few computer connections (which we don't use). Fortunately my purchase price ($6,000) included an immense pile of cabling, including the necessary EDACs, otherwise things could have got a lot more expensive, fast. As it was some of the EDACs needed repinning, so I had to buy tools and pins, but that's nothing compared to the cost of having to do all that cable from scratch. We did run out of room in the patchbay and had to add an outboard bay in one of the racks. Patchbay is TT. I do wish it was an API, but the days of $6,000 APIs are long gone..... Thanks for the info
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Post by ChaseUTB on Oct 16, 2017 15:08:32 GMT -6
mattWow this is crazy, I feel like something is bogging down your system. I am on a 2012 MBP, runnin 32 Bit Lion And 32 Bit PT 10, off a USB 3.0 7200, With my FW800 Apollo At 64 samples with Verb and delay aux with tracked out beats or HP/ Cue mixes. Usually have protection SW running too. WiFi On or Off usually off. Not sure but you should have better performance than me on a Mac Pro and Thunderbridge + Symph At 64 samples right? Surely the nMP can run more efficient than my i7... Hearing You and Joseph Share makes me realize it just wasn’t my $4000 + Apogee didn’t give a shit about ...
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Post by Quint on Oct 16, 2017 16:46:26 GMT -6
UA releases Console 1 on FW wasn't caving, it was about sorting out all the problems with FW trying to support all the extra features and the real problem is FW's inherent bandwidth limitations vs tbolt PCI-e. UA had a special FW users beta group working on this and while it was definitely well after tbolt, the delay was also caused by UA's personal limitations and release schedules for its other products They did cave. I'm glad they caved, but they did cave. UA originally stated that they weren't going to release Console 2 for non-TB Apollo's. There was, as expected, an uproar over this. I can't speak for others, but I never faulted UA for not being able to overcome FW limitations, as that pertains to those specific aspects of Console 1 vs Console 2. FW has bandwidth and speed limitations. I get it. What I, and many others, DID complain about was all of the other new Console 2 features, which had nothing to do with the inherent FW limitations, like scribble strips, plugin lists, etc. Why should I have to upgrade to a $500 TB card just to enjoy those basic features? It's all water under the bridge at this point because UA did the right thing (very slowly) and brought FW users up to Console 2. All this being said, this is why I'm likely moving away from all-in-one boxes. It's just too volatile of a landscape. I don't want the rest of the eggs in the basket to get hosed because of all of the types of things being discussed in this thread. The last few years with the Apollo have been an eye opener and I don't again want to go through lengthy waiting periods and compromises because I've sunk multiple eggs into one basket. In the future I want to be able to more cleanly sever ties with an interface when it doesn't meet my needs or I want something better. Maybe UA will hit the next Apollo out of the park and I'll stay with UA for a while longer. But they're really going to have to up their game. Otherwise my next interface purchase in the next couple of years will be with some other maker.
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