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Post by swurveman on Jun 5, 2017 8:43:19 GMT -6
Have Jim or Bill ever posted a mix here at RGO? No for DR Bills just put in a Disney DVD! Love to hear it! Got a link? My only point is that when somebody argues from authority, it helps for people to know it's an authority. Lots of really talented people post songs here including John K, Randy Kohrs, unit7, jcoutu etc. Having never heard anything mixed by Bill or Jim it's hard to accept the argument from authority. That's my point.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 5, 2017 8:48:45 GMT -6
No for DR Bills just put in a Disney DVD! Love to hear it! Got a link? My only point is that when somebody argues from authority, it helps for people to know it's an authority. Lots of really talented people post songs here including John K, Randy Kohrs, unit7, jcoutu etc. Having never heard anything mixed by Bill or Jim it's hard to accept the argument from authority. That's my point. In many cases part of the deal to get the gig is you can't post stuff without permission and when you deal with the big corporations simply trying to ask is a major pain. I don't post stuff because my clients come to me because they know I won't post stuff in many corporate cases I have to sign some complicated NDA's simple just to not post stuff!
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Post by john on Jun 5, 2017 8:55:53 GMT -6
thanks for the read everyone.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jun 5, 2017 8:56:25 GMT -6
Love to hear it! Got a link? My only point is that when somebody argues from authority, it helps for people to know it's an authority. Lots of really talented people post songs here including John K, Randy Kohrs, unit7, jcoutu etc. Having never heard anything mixed by Bill or Jim it's hard to accept the argument from authority. That's my point. In many cases part of the deal to get the gig is you can't post stuff without permission and when you deal with the big corporations simply trying to ask is a major pain. I don't post stuff because my clients come to me because they know I won't post stuff in many corporate cases I have to sign some complicated NDA's simple just to not post stuff! So hold the phone here. You're saying that you mix some album, or a tune in a movie, or whatever, and you're signing an NDA excluding you from mentioning that you worked on it? I under stand that people can't post projects that they're currently involved in, but once it's released, it still can't be discussed?
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Post by swurveman on Jun 5, 2017 9:02:35 GMT -6
Love to hear it! Got a link? My only point is that when somebody argues from authority, it helps for people to know it's an authority. Lots of really talented people post songs here including John K, Randy Kohrs, unit7, jcoutu etc. Having never heard anything mixed by Bill or Jim it's hard to accept the argument from authority. That's my point. In many cases part of the deal to get the gig is you can't post stuff without permission and when you deal with the big corporations simply trying to ask is a major pain. I don't post stuff because my clients come to me because they know I won't post stuff in many corporate cases I have to sign some complicated NDA's simple just to not post stuff! Surely there's something Dr. Bill and Jim have mixed that's not been released by a major label and isn't under those constrictions.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 5, 2017 9:19:17 GMT -6
In many cases part of the deal to get the gig is you can't post stuff without permission and when you deal with the big corporations simply trying to ask is a major pain. I don't post stuff because my clients come to me because they know I won't post stuff in many corporate cases I have to sign some complicated NDA's simple just to not post stuff! So hold the phone here. You're saying that you mix some album, or a tune in a movie, or whatever, and you're signing an NDA excluding you from mentioning that you worked on it? I under stand that people can't post projects that they're currently involved in, but once it's released, it still can't be discussed? I am speaking for myself here but more and more I am doing more corporate work and what music projects I do get as well I get because I'm not taking credit, I'm invisible! It's easier to live by one set of rules than try to remember what you can and can't do for each project client. For me it started when I was working at Full Compass, in order to keep the peace with bosses & and clients It was easier and more profitable to not take credit, those who needed to know knew, then when I needed to re-establish my self I was mixing/ produceing projects for guys who spent a small fortune and were over their heads . Again I learned not careing about getting credit and letting others have the brag factor was very profitable, and clients were very good at referrals because I don't take credit ! In one of my first real jobs I learned I was happier making 2x minimum wage as a grunt than my friends who were making minimum and had a Assistant mgr title! Not sayin we need to roll the same but some of us our own personal rules are part of why we get the gigs we get, we carve and serve a niche market, it's the American way!
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Post by drbill on Jun 5, 2017 10:05:09 GMT -6
Again. I'm not saying you can't. Or whoever mixed Pharrell can't. In fact my original point was that master engineers have an innate ability to do just that. But I don't. I need an edge. Not everyone can make it to the big leagues on their own. Some ppl need steroids to get there. I would love to hear some mixes of these ppl who claim they don't need one rather than ppl like DrBill and Jim Williams having to prove themselves to you. Especially since Jim and Bill are the two biggest titans on this forum. Along with Bob of course. Have Jim or Bill ever posted a mix here at RGO? Nope. And not likely to. I'm just a phantom bot that posts on audio websites.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Jun 5, 2017 10:05:19 GMT -6
Sorry ericn It may be best to let dr Bill and Jim speak for themselves here! I appreciate your feedback! again porkyman swurveman check out my sig no Bricasti here, I got my links in my sig... I know most don't care about rap but I can name drop and stroke my own ego all day and I don't. Music is there for your reference! I also Mixed one of Wiz's wonderful tunes as well that's on my SoundCloud If rap doesn't float your boat 🤠🤘 Disney movies? Are we talking Filler sound in the background? Elevator music? Or are we talking the first song at the credits in the movies which has been played throughout the movie ? Cuz filler music and a movie's lead single are wayyyyy different... both very important ..... but wayyyyy different I have been under NDA before and when the project is released I am notified.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Jun 5, 2017 10:08:51 GMT -6
In many cases part of the deal to get the gig is you can't post stuff without permission and when you deal with the big corporations simply trying to ask is a major pain. I don't post stuff because my clients come to me because they know I won't post stuff in many corporate cases I have to sign some complicated NDA's simple just to not post stuff! So hold the phone here. You're saying that you mix some album, or a tune in a movie, or whatever, and you're signing an NDA excluding you from mentioning that you worked on it? I under stand that people can't post projects that they're currently involved in, but once it's released, it still can't be discussed? 🤠 Haha... I know u been NDA before... you know how it goes 🤘 Don't fall for the hype 😀 I know one time I wasn't able to speak on one thing, most dissolve upon release
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Post by drbill on Jun 5, 2017 10:09:17 GMT -6
No for DR Bills just put in a Disney DVD! Love to hear it! Got a link? My only point is that when somebody argues from authority, it helps for people to know it's an authority. Lots of really talented people post songs here including John K, Randy Kohrs, unit7, jcoutu etc. Having never heard anything mixed by Bill or Jim it's hard to accept the argument from authority. That's my point. I didm't say anything about "authority". If I mention something, its my personal opinion. Please feel free to disregard if it doesn't line up with your esthetic. There's a good reason I don't generally post audio on forums. Unauthoritatively yours,
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Post by swurveman on Jun 5, 2017 10:29:25 GMT -6
Love to hear it! Got a link? My only point is that when somebody argues from authority, it helps for people to know it's an authority. Lots of really talented people post songs here including John K, Randy Kohrs, unit7, jcoutu etc. Having never heard anything mixed by Bill or Jim it's hard to accept the argument from authority. That's my point. I didm't say anything about "authority". If I mention something, its my personal opinion. Please feel free to disregard if it doesn't line up with your esthetic. There's a good reason I don't generally post audio on forums. Unauthoritatively yours, I wasn't referring to any statement from you. I was referring to this post with this statement: "I would love to hear some mixes of these ppl who claim they don't need one rather than ppl like DrBill and Jim Williams having to prove themselves to you. Especially since Jim and Bill are the two biggest titans on this forum. Along with Bob of course." Sound like an argument from authority to me.
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Post by drbill on Jun 5, 2017 10:40:19 GMT -6
...... Now I'm so confused.....
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jun 5, 2017 11:13:42 GMT -6
...... Now I'm so confused..... Bill, sorry for busting your balls again. I figured out why you can't post the tracks from the movies and TV shows. I see the licensing issues. You could point us towards tunes you're selling, but I get it. It is what it is. Back on topic, can I ask how often you're working with real drum kits? Where do you get the most use from the Bricasti? What year did you pick it up?
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Post by dandeurloo on Jun 5, 2017 11:14:34 GMT -6
I didm't say anything about "authority". If I mention something, its my personal opinion. Please feel free to disregard if it doesn't line up with your esthetic. There's a good reason I don't generally post audio on forums. Unauthoritatively yours, I wasn't referring to any statement from you. I was referring to this post with this statement: "I would love to hear some mixes of these ppl who claim they don't need one rather than ppl like DrBill and Jim Williams having to prove themselves to you. Especially since Jim and Bill are the two biggest titans on this forum. Along with Bob of course." Sound like an argument from authority to me. Do you guys know about Allmusic.com? That is a good place to check folks out. Or IMDB for guys who do film stuff. I do that all the time.
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Post by drsax on Jun 5, 2017 11:23:55 GMT -6
Here's the problem I see with trying to judge the impact of a reverb unit based on listening to someone else's mixes - although it can give you a baseline for what the reverb may sound like, there is no way for you to know how the reverb was used, why a particular reverb setting was chosen, and what its overall impact is on the mix without actually hearing that mix with and without that particular reverb. It's easy to listen to something and say "I could have gotten that sound out of the reverbs I have." I've tried to do that many times, sometimes with success, and sometimes the sound I'm trying to replicate is unobtainable because I don't have the right tools to achieve that sound. But without the original source files it's like stabbing in the air. Music is living and breathing and constantly changing depending on a wide variety of parameters. The Bricasti like any other audio tool, can only be understood with personal experience. And perhaps it's even more so the case with the M7 because it does impact the space of a mix so much more than most other units. The example of Casey on YouTube running a full jazz mix through the M7 is a decent example - but that's still quite different from actually experiencing it and using it yourself. With that said, it's just an example - the Bricasti does so many more things than just create a nice room sound, and the parameters interact so much that you really need to try one to understand what it does. It may be your cup of tea or maybe not.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jun 5, 2017 11:58:10 GMT -6
dandeurloo, yep I'm familiar with them. I can't find Jim on either and I see a bunch of BIll on IMDB, but don't really know what that means. composer: additional music To me, that means that he wrote some background music in the show/movie. Are they actually his full blown productions in the video or just stuff that he wrote that's being recut elsewhere. Did he fully produce them? Did he mix them? Are they using real instruments or VI's? Is he pushing out big Pimp Dawg tracks like ChaseUTB or new age jazz like drsax or ethereal background music. I'm trying to put their opinions about gear into perspective. I'm personally not using VI's in my productions. I'm not against them, but that's not the kind of stuff I do. If they happen to do all instrumental music using VI's, their toolset and gear selections/uses will be very different from mine. I just don't understand why someone will talk a big game and say "turn on the Disney channel if you want to hear my work", but can't tell me if they're mixing foley or writing the hit songs from Frozen. Also, FWIW, I'm nobody. I can't make a living mixing. I'm not trying to come across as better than anyone here. I'm sure a bunch of you cats probably think my mixes/music suck. At least you can check my stuff out and form your own opinions.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 5, 2017 12:31:33 GMT -6
I just wanna chime in as an amateur speaking to the other amateurs that might be out there. Imo nothing will improve your mixes more than a bricasti. I would sell every piece of gea I had (except the perfect vocal mic for your voice) to get it. No pre comp eq is worth 1/10 the real value of a bricasti. If all you did was run a little of your full mix through studio A it would have more impact than any other piece of gear you own by far. The biggest difference between a comercia and demo quality mix imo is reverb. Or space. Some of that is just the rooms they are recording in. Some of it is mic placement and proper technique. Some of it is processing. I think it's mostly intuitive and not as audible or quantifiable as ppl think. Imo the best engineers are blessed with above average spatial intelligence even though they are not fully conscience of the ways they are affecting the tracks. In other words they can't actually hear the reflections or see them in their minds but they are intuitively able to construct the tracks and fit them in the same space and make them sound whole. it is that "glue" that everybody is chasing. For example. Imagine going to a concert and seeing a band. All those reflections bouncing all over the place. Now imagine the guitar had no reflections. Everything would be bouncing off the walls except the guitars. Your brain would pick up on that instantly and you'd think you were in the matrix bc it's physically impossible for that to happen. This is what happens when you listen to a poor mix. Your brain picks up on it instantly. It knows these sounds are not coming from the same space. it sounds matrix. That's why in my opinion if you're gonna make a demo quality recording for promo or whatever reason you're better off setting up a couple room Mics and recording live. It will sound better than poorly mixed and you'll get more leeway from the listener. Every honest amateur will admit what they struggle with the most is reverb. They can't get it to gel with the source track. That is why I believe the bricasti is the most important piece of gear you'll ever buy in today's low budget world I don't see how you can get by without one unless you're recording/mixing tracks with naturally stellar ambience. Ppl always say "well how did they make all those hit records before the bricasti," and the answer is of course BIG BIG brains with BIG BIG budgets in BIG BIG rooms recording BIG BIG talent. If you ain't got any of that you're gonna have to fake it. The easiest way (only way imo) is with the bricasti. Damn you
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 5, 2017 12:32:35 GMT -6
I don't know of a studio I could visit semi-locally that has one. Large or small. It's interesting to think back to the post-grunge "reverb is illegal" era. Clients really wouldn't let you use it. Ambience was OK if was 100% natural: could be the bathroom, the hall, didn't matter how big or good sounding it was. Whew...now I don't have to buy one again...
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 5, 2017 12:33:14 GMT -6
dandeurloo, yep I'm familiar with them. I can't find Jim on either and I see a bunch of BIll on IMDB, but don't really know what that means. composer: additional music To me, that means that he wrote some background music in the show/movie. Are they actually his full blown productions in the video or just stuff that he wrote that's being recut elsewhere. Did he fully produce them? Did he mix them? Are they using real instruments or VI's? Is he pushing out big Pimp Dawg tracks like ChaseUTB or new age jazz like drsax or ethereal background music. I'm trying to put their opinions about gear into perspective. I'm personally not using VI's in my productions. I'm not against them, but that's not the kind of stuff I do. If they happen to do all instrumental music using VI's, their toolset and gear selections/uses will be very different from mine. I just don't understand why someone will talk a big game and say "turn on the Disney channel if you want to hear my work", but can't tell me if they're mixing foley or writing the hit songs from Frozen. Also, FWIW, I'm nobody. I can't make a living mixing. I'm not trying to come across as better than anyone here. I'm sure a bunch of you cats probably think my mixes/music suck. At least you can check my stuff out and form your own opinions. Make a living mixing ? What's that? Seriously in the music world that is becoming less and less a reality, more and everyone is doing more Audio for Video than traditional music!
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 5, 2017 12:41:40 GMT -6
I wasn't referring to any statement from you. I was referring to this post with this statement: "I would love to hear some mixes of these ppl who claim they don't need one rather than ppl like DrBill and Jim Williams having to prove themselves to you. Especially since Jim and Bill are the two biggest titans on this forum. Along with Bob of course." Sound like an argument from authority to me. Do you guys know about Allmusic.com? That is a good place to check folks out. Or IMDB for guys who do film stuff. I do that all the time. I can't get Allmusic to list a single thing I've been involved with. I've sent multiple emails - all with no response or changes.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 5, 2017 12:42:14 GMT -6
And let's just stop with the dick measuring...
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Post by EmRR on Jun 5, 2017 13:11:32 GMT -6
I can't get Allmusic to list a single thing I've been involved with. I've sent multiple emails - all with no response or changes. Oh God, yeah. Try being named 'Doug Williams' and get your credits straightened out. Pay up to join, then you can get in the arbitration cue. F'in hostage situation.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 5, 2017 13:31:23 GMT -6
Yeah. You wouldn't believe how common John Kennedy is.
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Post by swurveman on Jun 5, 2017 13:54:20 GMT -6
Yeah. You wouldn't believe how common John Kennedy is. ....and Frank Johnson LOL! Let's all change our names to Bowie!!
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Post by drbill on Jun 5, 2017 13:54:21 GMT -6
I see a bunch of BIll on IMDB, but don't really know what that means. Why are you letting that bother you so much? Why do you find the need to discuss "me"? Why do you continually find the need to bust my chops? I do everything you mentioned in your post, and then some. That's what guys who do what I do - i.e.: TV/Film composers - that's what we DO. I'm not unique in it. We work with musicians, we work with VSTi's, we do live drum sessions, we use loops, we deal with singers, we do instrumental music. We do whatever it takes to make the picture be the best it can be - whatever the client and whatever the music requires. From your comments it seems like it's a world you are very unfamiliar with. The definition of a TV/Film composer is someone who writes "background music" for in show use - and although I do or have done almost every job in music, that's how I would primarily categorize myself in 2017 - as a composer. Sometimes its featured, mostly it's disposable - and buried. I have no control over either. Sometimes it's commissioned, sometimes it's licensed and I have no idea where it's headed. Sometimes you hear what I do almost every day on radio/TV, other times (mostly) it's buried so far under some TV show that they could have used a polka band and it wouldn't matter. Am I bummed that it's not front and center where I can point you to a Billboard Top 40 album? Hardly. Can you discern what kind of reverb I used? Probably not. I'd be pretty impressed if you could. Is there a soundtrack album? Rarely. Why do I do it? Because it makes me a good living doing what I WANT to do, I get to buy cool gear, and I get to live off royalties and use my time as I see fit. i.e.: I get to make a nice living writing and producing music that I want to produce. Are you doing that? What ARE you doing? By definition, I have to turn in finals, so that means I mix and often master the music I send in. That makes me a mixer / mastering engineer too (although I master ONLY because of time issues, and sometimes money issues. I hate mastering.) By definition, doing all the above makes me "the producer" as well. I've been know to do music editing as well. In the past I've been heavily into the studio musician world in LA. I've been an orchestrator, an arranger, and guess what - I take out the trash as well. I've been awarded a grammy, I've written music for an Academy Award winning film. I've got music in over 1500 episodic TV shows. I've worked for Disney, Warner Bros., Universal, New Line, Amblin, and virtually every major network in the US, and most of the cable networks. So what? My opinion is no different, or no more valid than yours. It's our OWN opinions. Nothing more. Mine doesn't have to match up with yours. We're each unique individuals with unique musical esthetic's that are evidently vastly different. If someone wants to attribute more credibility to my opinion due to my past musical experiences over yours or someone else's, that's THEIR prerogative. Not mine. I don't recall ever saying my opinion carries more weight than yours. Hey, I don't care about your credits. Why do you care so much about mine? You've obviously already found them on IMDb. I'm not going to post clips every time I make a comment, and I think that's your major gripe. WHY don't I post clips when you demand it? Mostly because of three reasons : because I can't legally, or; because of the obvious time and hassle constraints, or; mostly, mostly - because there's people like you out on the internet who are going to bring a wazoo load of ***** negativity into my life if I do, and my productivity is increased when I try to stay positive. That's the bottom line. So.... Maybe let's just get over it and agree to live and let live in our own separate musical universes?
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