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Post by kcatthedog on Jul 22, 2017 18:07:35 GMT -6
I remain to be convinced that these are actually even in the same parts league as warm gear. With Warm we have a known name brand manufacturer of transformers, where as with these it seems just marketing slight of hand.
I find it hard to believe this is anything more than they actually couldn't move these units at their stated list price.
If we use Warm, as an example, we have a known better pedigree of component build and a known excellent after sales service and involved senior mgt.
I can understand you guys in the states trying these out, as you have the 30 day return and shipping costs are low. Fo me up in Canada, I am not comfortable taking a flyer as if I have to return them, I have higher shipping costs and pain in the ass reversal of exchange and duties: drag.
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Post by drbill on Jul 22, 2017 19:07:39 GMT -6
I find it hard to believe this is anything more than they actually couldn't move these units at their stated list price. I don't think this is the case. The US stock was decimated in less than 24 hours, and those who ordered after that date are waiting for new units to be made and delivered - September. As for the transformers, there is no doubt they are inexpensive. But that said, transformers need not cost and arm and a leg. Rupert is using $3.00 transformers. (I read that in an interview that's since been scrubbed. I can no longer find it.) The cost of materials in a transformer is minimal. Certainly far less than metal work. Large scale and in house manufacturing can cut those $50 transformers down to a tenth of the price. The boutique transformer guys have been living off legends and their rep for way too long. That, and the demand for "boutique AUDIO transformers" is minuscule compared to the other products most of them manufacture. Many are liking the KT 1176 better than their other 1176's, so I have no reason to believe that the Pultec's will be substandard and/or inferior. I'm willing to take the risk, because in a few months when the reviews hit.....they will no longer be $299. I completely understand the incentive / dis-incentive for US / Canadian sales though....
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Post by EmRR on Jul 22, 2017 19:08:38 GMT -6
There isn't really a significant parts advantage the Warm can have over the KT. There's nothing magical about those audio transformers, either one.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jul 22, 2017 19:37:12 GMT -6
24 hours from when : after the discounted price ? These things were supposed to be $599 right ? How many sold at street list is my point ?
My point about Cinemag vs Midas is as has already been stated: there are no Midas transformers so this is bs vs knowing you have a quality transformer made from a recognized high quality supplier vs mystery metal.
I hope people enjoy the units, the truth will eventually come out but it's a little unusual to deep discount such a young product ?
If I was in the states, I would certainly try these.
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Post by drbill on Jul 22, 2017 19:42:58 GMT -6
24 hours from when : after the discounted price ? These things were supposed to be $599 right ? How many sold at street list is my point ? My point about Cinemag vs Midas is as has already been stated: there are no Midas transformers so this is bs vs knowing you have a quality transformer made from a recognized high quality supplier vs mystery metal. I hope people enjoy the units, the truth will eventually come out but it's a little unusual to deep discount such a young product ? 24 hours after the price drop to $299. Unusual? Probably. Obviously this is a marketing "stunt" to gain market share, or a calculated move to take out the product line of one to several companies - Pulse not being one of them. And....it's no doubt timed to correspond with Summer NAMM. Even if it wasn't, they certainly got the buzz @ NAMM from what I hear. I'm not sure what your comment on $599 is about. They will no doubt end up somewhere much higher than $299. Maybe back to $599 after KT reaches whatever their goal with the price drop is. $299 is not sustainable long term. No matter HOW cheap they make em. It's a loss leader / gimic move. PS - if needed (which remains to be seen), transformer and tube swaps - tubes especially - is simple. PPS - KT knows what they are doing, and the 1176's have been killing it. I suspect their either use the same XFMR's or suitable ones designed specifically for the Pultec by the same manufacturer. No reason to believe they are **** at this stage of the game.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jul 22, 2017 19:54:02 GMT -6
I understand it's either a marketing stunt or they re considered the price point and lowered it significantly. So, my implicit point is maybe there is more to this then meets the eye and they were concerned that they wouldn't sell as many as they had hoped at list so they deep discounted themselves . I understand parts cost probably make up maybe 10-20% of retail costs but once these are out in the wild with popped tops then we'll know exactly what they are literally made of. My comments may be sounding more critical than I mean: deals are ok but I prefer going with a more known quantity. Hopefully , this works out well for those who have bought. It is certainly an interesting opportunity
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jul 22, 2017 20:36:36 GMT -6
24 hours from when : after the discounted price ? These things were supposed to be $599 right ? How many sold at street list is my point ? My point about Cinemag vs Midas is as has already been stated: there are no Midas transformers so this is bs vs knowing you have a quality transformer made from a recognized high quality supplier vs mystery metal. I hope people enjoy the units, the truth will eventually come out but it's a little unusual to deep discount such a young product ? 24 hours after the price drop to $299. Unusual? Probably. Obviously this is a marketing "stunt" to gain market share, or a calculated move to take out the product line of one to several companies - Pulse not being one of them. And....it's no doubt timed to correspond with Summer NAMM. Even if it wasn't, they certainly got the buzz @ NAMM from what I hear. I'm not sure what your comment on $599 is about. They will no doubt end up somewhere much higher than $299. Maybe back to $599 after KT reaches whatever their goal with the price drop is. $299 is not sustainable long term. No matter HOW cheap they make em. It's a loss leader / gimic move. PS - if needed (which remains to be seen), transformer and tube swaps - tubes especially - is simple. PPS - KT knows what they are doing, and the 1176's have been killing it. I suspect their either use the same XFMR's or suitable ones designed specifically for the Pultec by the same manufacturer. No reason to believe they are **** at this stage of the game. Music Group made a very big deal about how they were done with NAMM after the last show, as I said before cheaper than a booth!
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Post by jacobamerritt on Jul 22, 2017 21:15:47 GMT -6
I understand it's either a marketing stunt or they re considered the price point and lowered it significantly. I understand parts cost probably make up maybe 10-20% of retail costs but once these are out in the wild with popped tops then we'll know exactly what they are literally made of. I asked Midas where the transformers were manufactured: 'Thank you for your email. The Midas transformers found in these KT units are from: manufacturer: HONGXING ELECTRONICS INDUSTRY CO.,LTD Please let me know if you have any further questions and I will be happy to assist you Thanks!' They are using decent Neutrik connectors. Also, they have popped top shots on the KT website if you are curious. Personally, I like that they are doing a 3 year warranty vs. Warm's 1 year. I wasn't entirely sold on the build quality of the Warm EQP-WAs I had. Warren at ZenPro said the build quality was decent so far on the new KT stuff as well.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Jul 22, 2017 21:32:02 GMT -6
Warm audio CS are one of the best and will respond and help whenever ... yes 10 pm on saturday nights whenever... I don't care what the warranty says, Warm a audio stands behind their gear, and has proven they go the extra mile to take care of their customers whether valid warranty or not...
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Post by johneppstein on Jul 22, 2017 22:00:38 GMT -6
I think there will always be solid market for the originals of classic outboard and microphones. And "affordable" or "budget" clones almost never hold their value well. Even ignoring the perception the originals have "a little something extra" that the copies lack, the originals have scarcity on their side while the "affordable"/"budget" versions generally flood the market. Originals yes but what will happen to the high priced second hand Clones? Good question. Hopefully those that have established a reputation for high quality above the level of the mass market offerings will retain value commensurate with that reputation. Of course it probably as high a market value as the originals, but who, maybe if something develops an outstanding reputation perhaps it command a premium price. You never know, the market's funny thing... But I'd regard it as much more of long shot.
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Post by johneppstein on Jul 22, 2017 22:50:17 GMT -6
I find it hard to believe this is anything more than they actually couldn't move these units at their stated list price. I don't think this is the case. The US stock was decimated in less than 24 hours, and those who ordered after that date are waiting for new units to be made and delivered - September. As for the transformers, there is no doubt they are inexpensive. But that said, transformers need not cost and arm and a leg. Rupert is using $3.00 transformers. (I read that in an interview that's since been scrubbed. I can no longer find it.) The cost of materials in a transformer is minimal. Certainly far less than metal work. Large scale and in house manufacturing can cut those $50 transformers down to a tenth of the price. The boutique transformer guys have been living off legends and their rep for way too long. That, and the demand for "boutique AUDIO transformers" is minuscule compared to the other products most of them manufacture. Many are liking the KT 1176 better than their other 1176's, so I have no reason to believe that the Pultec's will be substandard and/or inferior. I'm willing to take the risk, because in a few months when the reviews hit.....they will no longer be $299. I completely understand the incentive / dis-incentive for US / Canadian sales though.... I disagree in part about the transformers. Some of the materials used in the old vintage transformers can be quite expensive as well quite difficult to source these days. Also some of those old transformers reportedly used proprietary winding designs and techniques that might not lend themselves to automated production. Yes, it's quite possible to employ modern mass production techniques and available materials to make a somewhat similar transformer for very cheap, but of equal quality to the original? I doubt very seriously. It's been a few years since I've been to an AES show, but when I was attending the SF shows on a reqular basis I would often make it point to ask various people why their company was no longer making this or that part or device from previous years that had attained legendary status and invariably the answer came back that it would too expensive to accurately the original device (part, etc.) in today's manufacturing environment. Since I recieved essentially the same answers from people from a faily wide variety of companies i'm, inclined to call (a somewhat qualified) "B.S." on clone enthusiasts who use the "economics of scale" argument to defend or promote budget clones. I just don't buy it. Quality still means something and I simply don't believe that some companies charge more for their products simply because they can. I also believe that in the current climate in the industry there are a huge number of very vocal people who really couldn't tell the difference between a really high quality unit and a really mediocre one - and would be inclined to promote the cheap one for reasons born purely out of psychology and ignorance. I'll take the word of ONE PERSON on my short list of people whose experience, ear, and taste I have come (with good reason) to trust over the "opinions" of vast herds of "the many" who by and large form their opinions based on what they read in reviews in gear mags and internet videos and blogs (if not simply on the basis that a particular product is "a really good deal.". I'll freely admit that no expert on the fine points of transformer design (one person can't be an expert in everything), but after half a century in audio, often rubbing shoulders with people who ARE, in fact, recognized experts in various specialties, I at least have an informed layman's understanding of what some of those fine points are. And the vast majority of those "opinion holders" don't. Most of them don't even understand that there are fine points to be aware of.
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Post by drbill on Jul 22, 2017 23:06:54 GMT -6
I disagree in part about the transformers. Some of the materials used in the old vintage transformers can be quite expensive as well quite difficult to source these days. I wasn't talking about vintage transformers. I was talking about current production units with transformers built in 2017. I've spent a fair amount of time in the design of current products where listening to transformers was an integral factor in the design. I'm pretty well aware of who the modern players are. There's good ones, and not so good ones. And one might be surprised if they actually knew who was making what for whom.
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Post by johneppstein on Jul 23, 2017 1:18:08 GMT -6
I disagree in part about the transformers. Some of the materials used in the old vintage transformers can be quite expensive as well quite difficult to source these days. I wasn't talking about vintage transformers. I was talking about current production units with transformers built in 2017. Well, we're talking about reproductions ("clones") of vintage devices. So to me the benchmark is the transformers used in the original device, especially in devices where one of major factors that the original sought after is the "sonic fingerprint" of the device on the audio apart from the basic function of the device. In other words, if the device is one of those where people will pass audio through it just for the "color" (I hate that word) without it actually "doing anything", then I'm going to look for reproduction to do the same thing because if it doesn't then it doesn't actually sound like the thing it claims to be. I know you have. That's why I'm somewhat surprised that you're sticking up for some of these budget copies. There's good ones, and not so good ones. And one might be surprised if they actually knew who was making what for whom. That wouldn't surprise me at all.
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Post by drbill on Jul 23, 2017 1:27:26 GMT -6
But the reproductions of vintage transformers use NEW materials and assembly methods. Not that expensive was my point.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jul 23, 2017 4:58:47 GMT -6
It certainly will be interesting to see how this plays out.
I too have had excellent after sales service with Warm Audio.
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Post by Guitar on Jul 23, 2017 9:42:05 GMT -6
Jesus, John, tell us what you really think. That big paragraph about the 'forum masses' or whatever was ELITIST as HELL. I do take umbrage with that type of talk. I also don't really like being insulted in the third person.
If you're so far above it, you can take this post and...
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jul 23, 2017 10:46:52 GMT -6
I don't think this is the case. The US stock was decimated in less than 24 hours, and those who ordered after that date are waiting for new units to be made and delivered - September. As for the transformers, there is no doubt they are inexpensive. But that said, transformers need not cost and arm and a leg. Rupert is using $3.00 transformers. (I read that in an interview that's since been scrubbed. I can no longer find it.) The cost of materials in a transformer is minimal. Certainly far less than metal work. Large scale and in house manufacturing can cut those $50 transformers down to a tenth of the price. The boutique transformer guys have been living off legends and their rep for way too long. That, and the demand for "boutique AUDIO transformers" is minuscule compared to the other products most of them manufacture. Many are liking the KT 1176 better than their other 1176's, so I have no reason to believe that the Pultec's will be substandard and/or inferior. I'm willing to take the risk, because in a few months when the reviews hit.....they will no longer be $299. I completely understand the incentive / dis-incentive for US / Canadian sales though.... I disagree in part about the transformers. Some of the materials used in the old vintage transformers can be quite expensive as well quite difficult to source these days. Also some of those old transformers reportedly used proprietary winding designs and techniques that might not lend themselves to automated production. Yes, it's quite possible to employ modern mass production techniques and available materials to make a somewhat similar transformer for very cheap, but of equal quality to the original? I doubt very seriously. It's been a few years since I've been to an AES show, but when I was attending the SF shows on a reqular basis I would often make it point to ask various people why their company was no longer making this or that part or device from previous years that had attained legendary status and invariably the answer came back that it would too expensive to accurately the original device (part, etc.) in today's manufacturing environment. Since I recieved essentially the same answers from people from a faily wide variety of companies i'm, inclined to call (a somewhat qualified) "B.S." on clone enthusiasts who use the "economics of scale" argument to defend or promote budget clones. I just don't buy it. Quality still means something and I simply don't believe that some companies charge more for their products simply because they can. I also believe that in the current climate in the industry there are a huge number of very vocal people who really couldn't tell the difference between a really high quality unit and a really mediocre one - and would be inclined to promote the cheap one for reasons born purely out of psychology and ignorance. I'll take the word of ONE PERSON on my short list of people whose experience, ear, and taste I have come (with good reason) to trust over the "opinions" of vast herds of "the many" who by and large form their opinions based on what they read in reviews in gear mags and internet videos and blogs (if not simply on the basis that a particular product is "a really good deal.". I'll freely admit that no expert on the fine points of transformer design (one person can't be an expert in everything), but after half a century in audio, often rubbing shoulders with people who ARE, in fact, recognized experts in various specialties, I at least have an informed layman's understanding of what some of those fine points are. And the vast majority of those "opinion holders" don't. Most of them don't even understand that there are fine points to be aware of. The sad part is your argument about voices driving the masses could just as easily apply to the latest vintage craze or top dollar clone craze, or new design at any price point! It's always been about your own ears to decide what works for you!
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Post by c0rtland on Jul 23, 2017 14:07:51 GMT -6
I ordered a pair through amazon today. 4-5 months to ship.
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Post by johneppstein on Jul 23, 2017 14:10:13 GMT -6
I disagree in part about the transformers. Some of the materials used in the old vintage transformers can be quite expensive as well quite difficult to source these days. Also some of those old transformers reportedly used proprietary winding designs and techniques that might not lend themselves to automated production. Yes, it's quite possible to employ modern mass production techniques and available materials to make a somewhat similar transformer for very cheap, but of equal quality to the original? I doubt very seriously. It's been a few years since I've been to an AES show, but when I was attending the SF shows on a reqular basis I would often make it point to ask various people why their company was no longer making this or that part or device from previous years that had attained legendary status and invariably the answer came back that it would too expensive to accurately the original device (part, etc.) in today's manufacturing environment. Since I recieved essentially the same answers from people from a faily wide variety of companies i'm, inclined to call (a somewhat qualified) "B.S." on clone enthusiasts who use the "economics of scale" argument to defend or promote budget clones. I just don't buy it. Quality still means something and I simply don't believe that some companies charge more for their products simply because they can. I also believe that in the current climate in the industry there are a huge number of very vocal people who really couldn't tell the difference between a really high quality unit and a really mediocre one - and would be inclined to promote the cheap one for reasons born purely out of psychology and ignorance. I'll take the word of ONE PERSON on my short list of people whose experience, ear, and taste I have come (with good reason) to trust over the "opinions" of vast herds of "the many" who by and large form their opinions based on what they read in reviews in gear mags and internet videos and blogs (if not simply on the basis that a particular product is "a really good deal.". I'll freely admit that no expert on the fine points of transformer design (one person can't be an expert in everything), but after half a century in audio, often rubbing shoulders with people who ARE, in fact, recognized experts in various specialties, I at least have an informed layman's understanding of what some of those fine points are. And the vast majority of those "opinion holders" don't. Most of them don't even understand that there are fine points to be aware of. The sad part is your argument about voices driving the masses could just as easily apply to the latest vintage craze or top dollar clone craze, or new design at any price point! It's always been about your own ears to decide what works for you! It does indeed apply to the current vintage craze, as well as most aspects of internet-centric marketing. It pisses me off when rich dilettantes and collectors drive up prices on good tools that they really can't appreciate properly and in many cases may never even use.
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Post by drbill on Jul 23, 2017 16:15:05 GMT -6
I ordered a pair through amazon today. 4-5 months to ship. Looks like they accomplished their goal. Surely at this point anyone in pro audio knows KT is baaack!!
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Post by rowmat on Jul 23, 2017 16:29:59 GMT -6
I ordered a pair through amazon today. 4-5 months to ship. Looks like they accomplished their goal. Surely at this point anyone in pro audio knows KT is baaack!! KT in name only perhaps but that's irrelevant as long as the marketing works and judging by this and other threads it has. Now Music Group is about to kill off its opposition brace yourselves for the Amazon juggernaut behemoth that will make Music Group look like small fry!
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Post by EmRR on Jul 23, 2017 16:40:38 GMT -6
It's like the DBX 500 promotions but without the 'in stock' instant shipping!
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,953
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Post by ericn on Jul 23, 2017 16:44:38 GMT -6
Looks like they accomplished their goal. Surely at this point anyone in pro audio knows KT is baaack!! KT in name only perhaps but that's irrelevant as long as the marketing works and judging by this and other threads it has. Now Music Group is about to kill off its opposition brace yourselves for the Amazon juggernaut behemoth that will make Music Group look like small fry! KT has been KT in name only since the late 80's when Mark IV / EV bought it !
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Post by subspace on Jul 23, 2017 17:00:54 GMT -6
I ordered a pair through amazon today. 4-5 months to ship. Ouch! Sweetwater is telling people September but they probably have no idea. Mine are on a truck a couple hours North of me, will be checking the front stoop tomorrow as I run around town for appointments.
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Post by BradM on Jul 23, 2017 17:15:38 GMT -6
Note to self...for next product release drop price 40-50% and coordinate massive dealer buy.
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