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Post by Ward on Jul 20, 2017 21:58:29 GMT -6
EDIT I should really learn to keep my trap shut after I've had a couple glasses of wine...
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Post by subspace on Jul 20, 2017 22:42:41 GMT -6
Sweetwater called to let me know they unexpectedly had a shipment of EQP-KTs arrive, my pre-order pair is shipping out. And no, I won't be sending them to John, no matter how much reverse psychology he attempts in this thread.
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Post by johneppstein on Jul 20, 2017 23:18:59 GMT -6
Well they wouldn't be undercutting anybody if they were of low quality. The price/performance, at least on paper, seems outrageously high. There's plenty of other cheap EQs that don't post that kind of threat because they also have a lower performance. Really? How can anybody know if nobody's actually used them yet or even had a chance to look at the build quality. Seems to me that pronouncement's jumping the gun just a wee little bit... Don't you mean the (rebadged) Hongwhatzit transformers? Midas doesn't actually make transformers, never has as far as I know. Not saying they are (or are not) necessarily bad, just that we really don't know, do we? Gibbs' rule #39 - There are no coincidences. (Yes, I've been watching too much NCIS.)
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Post by johneppstein on Jul 20, 2017 23:22:24 GMT -6
Big guy just caught on that people have been prepaying for DIY short runs that have been undercutting official manufacturing..... It's just a matter of time before big guy decides to sell direct for even cheaper... Just watch. Within 5 years is my guess. Brad It's a basic principle of nasty marketing - if you can get the customer to put down his money in advance you can take your time delivering the product - you've got the money, he's not going to be spending it on the other guy's product.
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Post by johneppstein on Jul 20, 2017 23:32:08 GMT -6
Sweetwater called to let me know they unexpectedly had a shipment of EQP-KTs arrive, my pre-order pair is shipping out. And no, I won't be sending them to John, no matter how much reverse psychology he attempts in this thread. AWww... But seriously - I gave up being an early adopter years ago - I'm perfectly happy to wait and see what other people's reactions are. That's reactions to the PRODUCT, not the hype. What I really want to see is the reactions of a couple (at least) of people who are familiar with the originals and hopefully some of the better clones.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2017 3:25:21 GMT -6
Something stinks here. I wouldn't buy one of these from KTBehringer if they were $50. Cool!! Let me know when this happens. I'll buy 10 of em. Try eBay in 12 months
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Post by timcampbell on Jul 21, 2017 4:28:48 GMT -6
ericn I'm sure Andrew did the M76 independent of Jakob's page. I talked to him at AES when he first started selling them. At the time Urei had stopped producing 1176's and that's also why Jakob built his. My comment was more about Warm Audio and some of the other boutique manufacturer's products that have been spawned by groupdiy and where some of those units originated.
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Post by jakeharris on Jul 21, 2017 5:43:40 GMT -6
tim: One of the most blatant being IGS Audio...
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jul 21, 2017 6:50:48 GMT -6
Well they wouldn't be undercutting anybody if they were of low quality. The price/performance, at least on paper, seems outrageously high. There's plenty of other cheap EQs that don't post that kind of threat because they also have a lower performance. Really? How can anybody know if nobody's actually used them yet or even had a chance to look at the build quality. Seems to me that pronouncement's jumping the gun just a wee little bit... Don't you mean the (rebadged) Hongwhatzit transformers? Midas doesn't actually make transformers, never has as far as I know. Not saying they are (or are not) necessarily bad, just that we really don't know, do we? Gibbs' rule #39 - There are no coincidences. (Yes, I've been watching too much NCIS.) That's it your starting to remind me of Gibbs DAD!
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jul 21, 2017 6:58:16 GMT -6
ericn I'm sure Andrew did the M76 independent of Jakob's page. I talked to him at AES when he first started selling them. At the time Urei had stopped producing 1176's and that's also why Jakob built his. My comment was more about Warm Audio and some of the other boutique manufacturer's products that have been spawned by groupdiy and where some of those units originated. Tim from the years we have known each other online I didn't think you were trying to infer that Andrew was ripping off Jacob, it just could have been read that way and we both know how what is said the Internet becomes gospel these days!
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jul 21, 2017 7:25:18 GMT -6
Big guy just caught on that people have been prepaying for DIY short runs that have been undercutting official manufacturing..... It's just a matter of time before big guy decides to sell direct for even cheaper... Just watch. Within 5 years is my guess. Brad One other major point, first you know I love your designs and I think you are uniquely qualified to design build & market your unique products. Your gear is out of the box enough that it would probably get lost in the virtual shelves of most gearpimps selection. Louder Than Liftoff would need somebody calling, educating, re-educating & reminding the sales weenies what everything is and can do. Now remember my prospective is not just as a sales weenie; but as the sales weenie who the owner of one of the top dealers in the country once said " you know more about what we do than anybody in this building" , the guy who couldn't write code beyond basic but had the keys to the digital kingdom including permissions to go in and rewrite the whole software. Selling and Marketing is very different from designing and building, in fact in most cases they require completely different personalities. Most of your compatition would like nothing to do with selling and marketing. This is where dealers come in, they have those skills, that's what they do. In theory a dealer and the market, should also let the customer find somebody they can communicate with, you don't know how many direct sales have been lost because the manufacturer or his guy rubbed the customer wrong! Now if I have 10 dealers with an average of 15 guys I in theory have 300 unique personalities marketing my gear. Also if you ever get to the point of needing to get a loan for a large production run the first thing the bank looks at is orders, if I can get GC SW B&H Alto and Fullco to each take 100 I have orders for 500 pieces in 5 phone calls. Direct how much time do I need to invest to generate 500 orders? That's where a dealer earns his markup ! Like I said I don't think your mix of products would work through dealers but you have to understand that just like not every piece is for everybody neither is a distribution channel!
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Post by BradM on Jul 21, 2017 12:04:34 GMT -6
Good stuff, Eric! I just saw a pic posted on GS showing two KT units someone just received. It actually looks like the KT logo is a sticker/label so you should be able to easily remove it. If that's possible I'm definitely going to do that. I'm also going to upgrade with a blue jewel lamp. Brad
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Post by BradM on Jul 21, 2017 12:05:19 GMT -6
It's just a matter of time before big guy decides to sell direct for even cheaper... Just watch. Within 5 years is my guess. Brad It's a basic principle of nasty marketing - if you can get the customer to put down his money in advance you can take your time delivering the product - you've got the money, he's not going to be spending it on the other guy's product. I do pre-orders. Brad
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Post by johneppstein on Jul 21, 2017 12:50:24 GMT -6
It's a basic principle of nasty marketing - if you can get the customer to put down his money in advance you can take your time delivering the product - you've got the money, he's not going to be spending it on the other guy's product. I do pre-orders. Brad Sure, but it's different for little guys. You aren't in a position to use it as a weapon to bludgeon the market and pre-prderts are often a necessity for a smaller scale operation. I was referring more to the Music Group vs. Warm Audio situation.
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Post by BradM on Jul 21, 2017 13:06:48 GMT -6
I do pre-orders. Brad Sure, but it's different for little guys. You aren't in a position to use it as a weapon to bludgeon the market and pre-prderts are often a necessity for a smaller scale operation. I was referring more to the Music Group vs. Warm Audio situation. Ah, yeah that's true. But regardless of company size, it can still be an effective marketing technique to generate buzz. Brad
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Post by ericn on Jul 21, 2017 13:19:15 GMT -6
Sure, but it's different for little guys. You aren't in a position to use it as a weapon to bludgeon the market and pre-prderts are often a necessity for a smaller scale operation. I was referring more to the Music Group vs. Warm Audio situation. Ah, yeah that's true. But regardless of company size, it can still be an effective marketing technique to generate buzz. Brad In the dealer situation customer pre orders are a major pain, often Manufacturers will change dealer pricing between announcement and shipping, plus in many states a customer is eligible for a customer to cancel anytime with no penalties after 30 days add in the when's it going to be here calls just a pain but heh everybody wants a buzz!
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Post by swurveman on Jul 22, 2017 9:04:57 GMT -6
I do pre-orders. Brad Sure, but it's different for little guys. You aren't in a position to use it as a weapon to bludgeon the market and pre-prderts are often a necessity for a smaller scale operation. I was referring more to the Music Group vs. Warm Audio situation. If this product takes off at a much lower price point than Warm-and then they go after the Warm 1176 etc market- it's going to hurt the resale of Warm owners' products. It's interesting from a buyers perspective that it seems that the products I own that are keeping their value the most are things like my GML 8200 and UA LA2A. It's seems like there's still a market of wealthy buyers who want the original (yeah I know Urei/Teletronix) and will pay for it. I am also interested in the entire "it will get you 90% there" idea. Will this KT Pultec-being a bit more than the plugin- get you "92% of the way there"? I'm just hoping the market for people who want the original designs holds. Otherwise this race to the bottom is going to be an even more wallet reducing movement.
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Post by Guitar on Jul 22, 2017 9:09:40 GMT -6
Well the same thing happened to tape machines, old ElectroVoice mics, digital rack gear from the '80s and '90s. Something in this direction could indeed change the market permanently, depending on how far it goes.
I think rather than 90% vs 92%, the more important fact is that the KT IS HARDWARE and not a plugin. Queue the full hardware vs software debate.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2017 9:30:56 GMT -6
I think we're in for a few of the most anticipated reviews from user's ever. KT have certainly stirred the pot. Plus my WA stuff has become "boutique" overnight
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Post by swurveman on Jul 22, 2017 10:27:00 GMT -6
Well the same thing happened to tape machines, old ElectroVoice mics, digital rack gear from the '80s and '90s. Something in this direction could indeed change the market permanently, depending on how far it goes. All these changes were-except for the EV mics- part of the analog to digital revolution. If hardware remains relevant, I'm not sure if original manufacturer high end gear not holding it's value is an apples to apples comparison to what you're talking about. If it all goes digital for signal processing, we're all fucked.
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Post by johneppstein on Jul 22, 2017 16:40:12 GMT -6
Sure, but it's different for little guys. You aren't in a position to use it as a weapon to bludgeon the market and pre-orders are often a necessity for a smaller scale operation. I was referring more to the Music Group vs. Warm Audio situation. If this product takes off at a much lower price point than Warm-and then they go after the Warm 1176 etc market- it's going to hurt the resale of Warm owners' products. It's interesting from a buyers perspective that it seems that the products I own that are keeping their value the most are things like my GML 8200 and UA LA2A. It's seems like there's still a market of wealthy buyers who want the original (yeah I know Urei/Teletronix) and will pay for it. I am also interested in the entire "it will get you 90% there" idea. Will this KT Pultec-being a bit more than the plugin- get you "92% of the way there"? I'm just hoping the market for people who want the original designs holds. Otherwise this race to the bottom is going to be an even more wallet reducing movement. I think there will always be solid market for the originals of classic outboard and microphones. And "affordable" or "budget" clones almost never hold their value well. Even ignoring the perception the originals have "a little something extra" that the copies lack, the originals have scarcity on their side while the "affordable"/"budget" versions generally flood the market.
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Post by rowmat on Jul 22, 2017 16:49:10 GMT -6
Whether or not the KT stuff is good, bad or indifferent slutting the price has not only generated said publicity all over forums like these, and ensured other manufacturers such as Warm Audio are no doubt considering their long term future, but also guaranteed that no one else will dare to enter the vintage clone market unless they are terminally insane.
Is that a good thing? IMO not for smaller boutique manufacturers of vintage style equipment, clones or otherwise.
Music Group's strategy regarding pricing competition is blatantly... "Bring it on, we'll wipe you out!"
And no doubt they can.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jul 22, 2017 17:01:28 GMT -6
If this product takes off at a much lower price point than Warm-and then they go after the Warm 1176 etc market- it's going to hurt the resale of Warm owners' products. It's interesting from a buyers perspective that it seems that the products I own that are keeping their value the most are things like my GML 8200 and UA LA2A. It's seems like there's still a market of wealthy buyers who want the original (yeah I know Urei/Teletronix) and will pay for it. I am also interested in the entire "it will get you 90% there" idea. Will this KT Pultec-being a bit more than the plugin- get you "92% of the way there"? I'm just hoping the market for people who want the original designs holds. Otherwise this race to the bottom is going to be an even more wallet reducing movement. I think there will always be solid market for the originals of classic outboard and microphones. And "affordable" or "budget" clones almost never hold their value well. Even ignoring the perception the originals have "a little something extra" that the copies lack, the originals have scarcity on their side while the "affordable"/"budget" versions generally flood the market. Originals yes but what will happen to the high priced second hand Clones?
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Post by rowmat on Jul 22, 2017 17:13:17 GMT -6
My prediction is the next big opportunity in the audio gear business is charging $399 to upgrade $299 KT vintage clones.
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Post by Guitar on Jul 22, 2017 17:24:24 GMT -6
My prediction is the next big opportunity in the audio gear business is charging $399 to upgrade $299 KT vintage clones. And then a $699 upgrade to upgrade the upgrade.... and so on.... haha.
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