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iLok 2
Dec 22, 2015 4:53:09 GMT -6
Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2015 4:53:09 GMT -6
A while ago there was a hilarious case shown by some critical IT webpage in germany, where they spotted the web address of kinox, an illegal video stream portal, in the dropdown auto-completion list in an official web clip made by the Department of the Interior. That's about where we are in terms of respecting intellctual property of others... Sad, but true.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2015 4:59:34 GMT -6
PS: I totally agree your thought of very affordable plugins without copy protection mechanism as a good concept for developers. Tony of Klanghelm is a great example for this. Harrison with the simple license files that cause no problems ever is another one. It was a very easy decision to buy their software for me.
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Post by M57 on Dec 22, 2015 6:15:39 GMT -6
PS: I totally agree your thought of very affordable plugins without copy protection mechanism as a good concept for developers. Tony of Klanghelm is a great example for this. Harrison with the simple license files that cause no problems ever is another one. It was a very easy decision to buy their software for me. Many of us take it for granted, but the concept of intellectual property ownership is only a century or so old. Gutenburg was paid to manufacture books and Bach wrote music for the church (yet they arguably made the greatest invention and wrote the greatest music respectively) but the concept of ownership of an idea for profit was the furthest thing from their minds. This relatively newfangled copyright system has been constantly stressed with every technological advance, and the digital age has, and will no doubt shake it to its core. Those of us who have experienced life before the tech revolution experienced a tiny bubble of temporary and false security. I don't think it is coincidence, but it is certainly serendipitous that these hacks are happening as lower priced software packages like the ones you mention are driving down prices. Even hardware prices are falling as DIY and clones become more prevalent. I think I have an ilok or two in my mac now for a few VI's that I never use, and I'm thinking of ripping them out just because. I'll never pay a subscription, and I don't plan to walk into a studio that does. What happens when the subscription expires? The music (or at least the engineering work) is lost. Effectively, these companies are holding your music ransom. Look, I know there are people who have worked hard to create software and as a result of the events are losing money ..but songwriters, doesn't this sound familiar? Get ready for it - The king is dying, long live the new king.
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Dec 22, 2015 7:40:53 GMT -6
I think what a lot of you are missing is what ILok actually does. it eats up a ton of CPU cycles encrypting and decrypting the application content. If you want to have something to research, read up on the Cubase 3 crack where they removed the syncrosoft protection. The crackers discovered that something like 30-40% of the program's CPU usage was by the copy protection. Those wasted CPU cycles had nothing to do with processing music, which is what Cubase is for. It's extremely wasteful of CPU cycles. That might not really be a problem now for CPUs that exist today, but a decade ago it was. it's something to consider.
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Post by category5 on Dec 22, 2015 8:18:44 GMT -6
I do not see dsp based cards in the future, as long they do not overcome the latency problem. Tony of Klanghelm is right - no protection and low prices is the best protection you can have. At 24 Euro there is no reason to risk that FBI is knocking on your door. I know at least 5 people who just bought his last compressor. That may be fine for a one man operation with modest expectations but you'd have to sell a heck of a lot of software at those prices to keep the bigger developers afloat. Some of the R&D and licensing deals would be hard to cover even at $100 per plugin. There is no one size fits all, especially where business models are concerned. What usually happens to the best hackers is that they get recruited by the operations they betrayed and develop the next generation of security. Maybe PACE can find this guy and give him a job. Ilok2 was as close to uncrackable as I've ever seen before this guy came along. As for the ergonomics vs hassle issue of dongles, I simply love my Ilok 2. Anyone who has ever migrated to a new system knows what a PITA it is to have to reregister all of your software. Ilok protected software just works when you plug in the key. Also, I have three iloks and I've never had to pay for one. they have been given to me either with licenses or by PACE directly. I have probably 75 licenses on my main ilok. To me that's convenience, not hassle. I'm sure we'll see an even more secure Ilok 3 soon, and it'll have its growing pains like the previous generations did, but for the software developers I know, there is no other option. It's just not possible to get ROI, grow, and maintain enough resources to continue to innovate without some form of hardcore protection. Aside from UAD, Ilok has been the best until now. Their entire business is based on it being un-compromised, so they will fix it for sure. I am sure they have already contacted their customers with information about what they are doing to fix the problem, and how they will compensate them for what happened. Nothing is uncrackable, nor will it ever be. You just hope there is not enough motive to justify the resources to do it.
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Dec 22, 2015 8:57:31 GMT -6
i have often wondered if those BrainWorx plugins that get released for both Native and UAD actually use the SHARC chips for processing.... It seems like a big waste of R&D time to convert a bunch of native C++ DSP code into the special instruction set that those SHARC chips use.
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Post by tonycamphd on Dec 22, 2015 9:04:15 GMT -6
I feel like this whole conversation is tantamount to rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic, we live in an entitlement society, nobody believes they should pay for anything anymore, stealing is right as rain, and everything is suffering for it, turn on the radio=shit, movies=shit, they're actually doing a remake of "point break", a horrible B rated 80's flick, GREAT ART IS DEAD because there is no incentive for anyone with real talent to come up with something great anymore, because assholes will just steal the tools to create it, and then assholes will steal the final product(and some will stream it to others and make money off of it!!!!), i weep for the future now!
btw, I've been on PT since the 90's, truth is i've hardly(totally legit) paid anything for the power it provides, and I've never had any problem with them until this last debacle, but that had 0 to do with Ilok, and i would never begrudge someone making a living, or trying to protecting it...
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Post by tonycamphd on Dec 22, 2015 9:18:50 GMT -6
1st, as much as Ilok and software developers have their issues, those people are just trying to make a living and not get their hard work ripped off, being glad to see someone ripped off is just fucked up dude, the part that you really miss is, anytime you buy a product from one of these co's that is dongle secured, they make it clear you are required to buy that and their legal user agreement as well, if you don't like the way they set up that agreement, then just don't buy it, we have some developers here that are getting screwed because of this, and part of you is glad..... I'm biting my tongue.... i started on protools before ilok. i was forced to get an ilok or never upgrade. ilok has locked me out of protools at least 100 times over the years. sometimes it locks me out of slate, kush, etc. then when i go to sell the licenses i bought and paid for they charge $25. i just sold vmr last week and there were 2 of them in my account. i paid $25 to transfer and it ended up being the free the license i downloaded to try revive. i ended up having to pay another $25 to transfer the right one... i feel bad for the independent developers who are consequentially getting their programs cracked after the fact, but im not gonna be crying any tears ilok. "i started on protools before ilok. i was forced to get an ilok or never upgrade" Upgrading constitutes a new and improved product, if you didn't want it, no one put a gun to your head and forced you to buy it. ilok has locked me out of protools at least 100 times over the years. I've been on pro tools since the 90's, i've NEVER been locked out, not once, and not when ilok had that meltdown a couple years ago, you must have the worst luck in history to be locked out at least 100 times.
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Post by tonycamphd on Dec 22, 2015 9:19:44 GMT -6
Hey @exponentialaudio Mike, can you/is it cool for you to chime in on this? I know you are an ilok2 protection user, how is this whole debacle affecting your great and painstakingly developed products? This is some real world shit right here, a real guy, making "as good as it gets" software, I seriously hope he's not getting ripped off as I type this.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Dec 22, 2015 9:58:48 GMT -6
Lower prices are a nice concept but it has only worked for a handful of one man show developers while most who have attempted have gone under.
According to a friend who works in military computing, Apple and Microsoft have always been capable of building robust, reliable, stable copy protection support into their operating systems but stolen software and music sells a lot of hardware and operating systems.
The reason PACE changed everything a few years ago was to allow them a great deal of agility for this kind of situation. I seriously doubt that we'll need to replace our dongles.
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Dec 22, 2015 10:06:06 GMT -6
Lower prices are a nice concept but it has only worked for a handful of one man show developers while most who have attempted have gone under. According to a friend who works in military computing, Apple and Microsoft have always been capable of building robust, reliable, stable copy protection support into their operating systems but stolen software and music sells a lot of hardware and operating systems. The reason PACE changed everything a few years ago was to allow them a great deal of agility for this kind of situation. I seriously doubt that we'll need to replace our dongles. OS X has been a free download for several years now, i think since 10.8 or 10.9, so for apple it's always been about the hardware, not the O.S.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Dec 22, 2015 10:08:40 GMT -6
And M$ is about the OS and office.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2015 10:29:18 GMT -6
So I googled a bit around, and found, that a cracker group, that i will not mention by name, seemingly uploaded cracked versions of PT12 and a lot of plugin packs that were protected by iLok2. As people state on the corresponding websites, the cracked AAX can not be used with a legal PT, so people must have a completely illegal DAW to use the illegal plugins. Happened seemingly 3 days ago and have been confirmed working im the feedback of the guys that downloaded it. So yes, i would say we can assume it's real. PT12 and several bundles of the known plugin companies are now up in the net. Let's face it, it happened to previous version, too, and will *most* probably happen to future dongle products. Except maybe for those dongles, that are also the computing power for the plugins, like UAD for example...
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ericn
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iLok 2
Dec 22, 2015 10:33:15 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by ericn on Dec 22, 2015 10:33:15 GMT -6
And M$ is about the OS and office. MS has always wanted to be about both, but has struggled in every hardware and dedicated Software arena except the X-Box. One of the reasons, Dell Took his Company private was because He unlike Wall ST, understood that if and when they might try consumer electronics its all about the software.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Dec 22, 2015 10:46:15 GMT -6
As an Industry we face a divide, those that operate above board and respect the intellectual property rights of those who develop the tools we use to develop our own intellectual property that we hope and pray others will respect. The problem is we are dealing with a huge influx of want to be's that see our livelihood as a quick route to fame and fortune. Many of these have no grasp of the simple fact that their short cut is steeling from hard working individuals who are just trying to earn a living, and cuts the livelihood of their dreams!
I am very proud of John for keeping this discussion open !
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2015 10:53:12 GMT -6
Hey @exponentialaudio Mike, can you/is it cool for you to chime in on this? Thanks for the invitation to speak on this subject. I hope you understand that I really can't address the specifics of the situation. I do think that I speak for the whole community of developers when I say that we really do appreciate the user community that helps to support our efforts. I think that we all take our obligation to you very seriously, and we hope to be in the financial position that we can keep offering useful and innovative software. With that, please let me bid all of you a happy holiday season and a wonderful 2016! Michael
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Post by ragan on Dec 22, 2015 10:57:41 GMT -6
I too always marvel at the alleged badness of iLok. I've never had an issue in years of use. It just sits there and works.
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Post by tonycamphd on Dec 22, 2015 11:03:28 GMT -6
I too always marvel at the alleged badness of iLok. I've never had an issue in years of use. It just sits there and works. I agree, i was pretty agitated by that debacle a few years ago as some pals were locked out for almost a week! that said, i regret some of the animos I may have shown, as it's really important for all of US to make sure we allow a little leeway toward these guys in their efforts to protect their interests.
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ericn
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iLok 2
Dec 22, 2015 11:22:55 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by ericn on Dec 22, 2015 11:22:55 GMT -6
I too always marvel at the alleged badness of iLok. I've never had an issue in years of use. It just sits there and works. In the old days I remember far to many problems, but I never. Got the total animosity, but I have always loved the simplicity and portability. We are a world of standards!
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iLok 2
Dec 22, 2015 12:11:12 GMT -6
via mobile
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2015 12:11:12 GMT -6
Eh, some of these companies need to see this and lower their price. The demand is high but not at their price. I left the stolen versions behind years ago but I can tell you from my experience the untethered and extended trial of waves Mercury made me a lifetime customer. I would keep stressing that in an industry like this it's a mark of professionalism to purchase the products you use, keep the prices as low as humanly possible, offer the subscriptions. Question, what do you think the web impressions and ad revenue are worth for these sites hosting these softwares?
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iLok 2
Dec 22, 2015 12:48:01 GMT -6
Post by popmann on Dec 22, 2015 12:48:01 GMT -6
So, reading this a bit yesterday I hesitated to put "why do I care".....but, now Slate pulled down his installers....as I realize I hadn't installed the full suite on the laptop when I opened a project and boom...."oh yeah--let me go install them"---and they're down.
Luckily, I'm OCD and still had the installer from a week or two ago when I put just the mixrack's VCC/Revival on the machine....and I just downloaded Relab from them....
I'm all for no copy protection. But, this machine authorization BS is LAST on the list...it's everything bad about dongles and nothing good. Except the obvious lack of taking up a port.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Dec 22, 2015 13:03:40 GMT -6
If you can't afford it, don't use it!
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Post by formatcyes on Dec 22, 2015 14:02:27 GMT -6
I too always marvel at the alleged badness of iLok. I've never had an issue in years of use. It just sits there and works. In the old days I remember far to many problems, but I never. Got the total animosity, but I have always loved the simplicity and portability. We are a world of standards! I think the animosity has a lot to do with people who wanted cracked software and iLok has been prity good at protecting its customers. iLok is going to cause a lot less problems re machine stability than the cracked software and I hope it is riddled with malware.
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iLok 2
Dec 22, 2015 15:06:23 GMT -6
Post by category5 on Dec 22, 2015 15:06:23 GMT -6
I too always marvel at the alleged badness of iLok. I've never had an issue in years of use. It just sits there and works. Was my experience as well. Even during the chage-over to the stand alone software I didn't lose a single license and not one asset failed to load. Not saying some didn't have trouble, but Ilok was pretty diligent in admitting their fault and correcting the situation. They gave me a free special edition ilok for installing the software in the first 24 hours of its release, and a free year of ZDT. There were some issues with ilok 1 on the PC that I remember, but again, none of them affected my system at the time. If you keep a clean system I think it goes a long way, too.
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Post by category5 on Dec 22, 2015 15:08:23 GMT -6
If you can't afford it, don't use it! Exactly. There are a SHIT-TON of quality free and inexpensive tools to get anyone by. Nobody NEEDS to DL pirated software to do their work. If you can afford a machine and interface then you probably already have a capable suite of tools to get you started.
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