|
Post by jcoutu1 on Mar 21, 2015 10:31:10 GMT -6
You guys should help me out and tell me how bad these are. I really like the 80B eq, but everyone slags on the ATB boards saying they're total crap.i had a trade offer on the table where I could get one, but feel like it wouldn't be a huge improvement. Give me your thoughts!
|
|
|
Post by swurveman on Mar 21, 2015 11:15:37 GMT -6
When I look at gear like the Toft and the 80B, I think about the tradeoff between DAW functionality- like unlimited routing/automation- to the benefit of being able to directly insert gear without any a/d loop, analog summing, plugin EQ vs hardware Eq and being able to touch knobs and faders instead of being chained to a mouse. I wish I could help you with my experience with this level of board, but I can't. It's strange because in my old copier salesman life I used to routinely let customers demo 15-100K copiers/duplicators for two weeks, but the music business doesn't do this. Instead, they rely on word of mouth. I wonder why?
|
|
|
Post by tonycamphd on Mar 21, 2015 11:36:45 GMT -6
When I look at gear like the Toft and the 80B, I think about the tradeoff between DAW functionality- like unlimited routing/automation- to the benefit of being able to directly insert gear without any a/d loop, analog summing, plugin EQ vs hardware Eq and being able to touch knobs and faders instead of being chained to a mouse. I wish I could help you with my experience with this level of board, but I can't. It's strange because in my old copier salesman life I used to routinely let customers demo 15-100K copiers/duplicators for two weeks, but the music business doesn't do this. Instead, they rely on word of mouth. I wonder why? you're not helllpiiiinnnnng!lol I Never buy gear i cant demo, right up until my major purchase of the Ross Martin multi channel AD/DA's, i've gone purely off of recommendation and reputation alone, and i have to say, it's been a harrowing and stressful waiting period, the other rig i was heavily considering was the motuAo stuff, wiz's stuff sounds awesome! but he doesn't do a lot of heavy Rock/funk stuff, i'm hoping the RM stands tall with heavy drum bass oriented material? We shall see....? sorry for the ot jess....
|
|
|
Post by jcoutu1 on Mar 21, 2015 11:51:09 GMT -6
When I look at gear like the Toft and the 80B, I think about the tradeoff between DAW functionality- like unlimited routing/automation- to the benefit of being able to directly insert gear without any a/d loop, analog summing, plugin EQ vs hardware Eq and being able to touch knobs and faders instead of being chained to a mouse. I wish I could help you with my experience with this level of board, but I can't. It's strange because in my old copier salesman life I used to routinely let customers demo 15-100K copiers/duplicators for two weeks, but the music business doesn't do this. Instead, they rely on word of mouth. I wonder why? I'm already running an analog console. I have the Midas VeniceF-32. There are advantages and disadvantages with each though I think. The Midas has built in conversion, so that's not a real concern and it has insert in/out switches that the Toft doesn't seem to have. The Toft has 4 more busses than the Midas though and a more straight ahead eq section. You have a Toft right? How do you like it? Any downfalls that you've found?
|
|
|
Post by jcoutu1 on Mar 21, 2015 11:52:55 GMT -6
When I look at gear like the Toft and the 80B, I think about the tradeoff between DAW functionality- like unlimited routing/automation- to the benefit of being able to directly insert gear without any a/d loop, analog summing, plugin EQ vs hardware Eq and being able to touch knobs and faders instead of being chained to a mouse. I wish I could help you with my experience with this level of board, but I can't. It's strange because in my old copier salesman life I used to routinely let customers demo 15-100K copiers/duplicators for two weeks, but the music business doesn't do this. Instead, they rely on word of mouth. I wonder why? you're not helllpiiiinnnnng!lol I Never buy gear i cant demo, right up until my major purchase of the Ross Martin multi channel AD/DA's, i've gone purely off of recommendation and reputation alone, and i have to say, it's been a harrowing and stressful waiting period, the other rig i was heavily considering was the motuAo stuff, wiz's stuff sounds awesome! but he doesn't do a lot of heavy Rock/funk stuff, i'm hoping the RM stands tall with heavy drum bass oriented material? We shall see....? sorry for the ot jess.... I demo gear by buying used when I find a decent deal and re-selling if it doesn't suit me.
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,023
|
Post by ericn on Mar 21, 2015 12:25:35 GMT -6
Toft is a great set of features but you can instantly tell it is built to a price point, much better off finding something really nice on the used market!
|
|
|
Post by mrholmes on Mar 21, 2015 13:52:24 GMT -6
|
|
|
Post by swurveman on Mar 21, 2015 15:41:10 GMT -6
When I look at gear like the Toft and the 80B, I think about the tradeoff between DAW functionality- like unlimited routing/automation- to the benefit of being able to directly insert gear without any a/d loop, analog summing, plugin EQ vs hardware Eq and being able to touch knobs and faders instead of being chained to a mouse. I wish I could help you with my experience with this level of board, but I can't. It's strange because in my old copier salesman life I used to routinely let customers demo 15-100K copiers/duplicators for two weeks, but the music business doesn't do this. Instead, they rely on word of mouth. I wonder why? You have a Toft right? How do you like it? Any downfalls that you've found? Sorry, I don't. Just musing about the market- an ATB 32 is $8k after all- and why everything is word of mouth instead of hands on as imo it should be. I can call up 5 copier dealers in my area today and get 5 $8K copiers delivered to my business for a two week trial without any commitment.
|
|
|
Post by jcoutu1 on Mar 21, 2015 18:00:26 GMT -6
Toft is a great set of features but you can instantly tell it is built to a price point, much better off finding something really nice on the used market! There isn't really nice/working used for sub $3k. Really I just need an API to fall into my lap.
|
|
|
Post by tonycamphd on Mar 21, 2015 19:18:16 GMT -6
Toft is a great set of features but you can instantly tell it is built to a price point, much better off finding something really nice on the used market! There isn't really nice/working used for sub $3k. Really I just need an API to fall into my lap. clearly you haven't tried the modded delta 8)
|
|
|
Post by jcoutu1 on Mar 21, 2015 19:31:58 GMT -6
There isn't really nice/working used for sub $3k. Really I just need an API to fall into my lap. clearly you haven't tried the modded delta 8) 32 channel modded delta runs sub 3k?
|
|
|
Post by dandeurloo on Mar 21, 2015 19:42:51 GMT -6
The Toft's are honestly pretty low end. The one I used was really bad. The crosstalk on it was really bad. I think you would be better staying ITB then getting a Toft.
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,023
|
Post by ericn on Mar 21, 2015 20:09:49 GMT -6
Toft is a great set of features but you can instantly tell it is built to a price point, much better off finding something really nice on the used market! There isn't really nice/working used for sub $3k. Really I just need an API to fall into my lap. Patience dear grasshopper, they are out there. You just have to be able to bite when one pops up that you can grab.
|
|
|
Post by Ward on Mar 22, 2015 9:00:19 GMT -6
The best thing Toft ever put out was the stereo/dual mono channel strip. It sits on my room mics for drums. And that is it. It works well for that. I haven't found a single other use for any toft gear. Well designed, decently built by small hands... but there is definitely something awry in the components.
|
|
|
Post by jcoutu1 on Mar 22, 2015 9:59:16 GMT -6
Well designed, decently built by small hands... but there is definitely something awry in the components. I feel just the opposite about my PMI gear. The Trident and Tonelux both sound great, but the build feels a bit flimsy.
|
|
|
Post by mdmitch2 on Aug 12, 2015 8:24:35 GMT -6
I'm thinking about getting an ATB 32a to use while I save up for my RGO/Litz/CAPN 1608 I have it on good authority that the latest revision of the Toft is a nice sounding board (although colored). It has upgraded IC's, faders, pots, and jacks among other things... I wonder if the negative reports on this console have more to do with the original version which had a lot of reliability issues with faders and pots, which have now been addressed. It uses through hole parts, and has individual boards for each channel, as well as socketed IC's, so modding is supposedly quite simple. Also jimwilliams does a master buss mod which reduces crosstalk by 20 db among other improvements (not sure if this mod applies to the latest revision). Wondering if anyone has tried the latest revision (V3.0) ??.... I saw on GS that BradM had one of the older versions at some point with an eye toward modding.... did anything ever come of that?
|
|
|
Post by jimwilliams on Aug 12, 2015 9:03:40 GMT -6
These are cheaply made, but offer a decent value as new analog consoles are rare. The mic pre's are ssm2017 or THAT1510 or BB INA217, depending on release. Stereo crosstalk is -48 dbu, not very good. THD is .4% at higher levels, rather crunchy. Mix past the zero VU and it gets dirty, fast. That limits dynamic range as the noise floor will eat you up.
Pots are cheap Taiwan made Alpha, 15,000 rotations and they are done. Switches are cheaper versions of Shadow. It is shy of power supply decoupling caps too.
I do mod the master strip here, that fixes the dynamic range/THD problems. THD will lower from .4% to .003% at +27 dbu. Stereo crosstalk improves to -74 dbu. That section is direct coupled, no caps in the signal path so the low end is deep and tight. These also benefit from replacing the mic preamp chip with the Audio Upgrades PIP module. I have a 32 in right now, owned by Steve Stevens of Billy Idol fame.
|
|
|
Post by mdmitch2 on Aug 12, 2015 9:45:11 GMT -6
These are cheaply made, but offer a decent value as new analog consoles are rare. The mic pre's are ssm2017 or THAT1510 or BB INA217, depending on release. Stereo crosstalk is -48 dbu, not very good. THD is .4% at higher levels, rather crunchy. Mix past the zero VU and it gets dirty, fast. That limits dynamic range as the noise floor will eat you up. Pots are cheap Taiwan made Alpha, 15,000 rotations and they are done. Switches are cheaper versions of Shadow. It is shy of power supply decoupling caps too. I do mod the master strip here, that fixes the dynamic range/THD problems. THD will lower from .4% to .003% at +27 dbu. Stereo crosstalk improves to -74 dbu. That section is direct coupled, no caps in the signal path so the low end is deep and tight. These also benefit from replacing the mic preamp chip with the Audio Upgrades PIP module. I have a 32 in right now, owned by Steve Stevens of Billy Idol fame. Thanks Jim -- do you do any mods to the channels other than the PIP? Or if not, recommend any other mods? Hakko 808 ready to go . Btw, Steve Stevens is an incredible player.... Love the Bozzio Levin Stevens albums.
|
|
|
Post by wiz on Aug 12, 2015 16:31:28 GMT -6
These are cheaply made, but offer a decent value as new analog consoles are rare. The mic pre's are ssm2017 or THAT1510 or BB INA217, depending on release. Stereo crosstalk is -48 dbu, not very good. THD is .4% at higher levels, rather crunchy. Mix past the zero VU and it gets dirty, fast. That limits dynamic range as the noise floor will eat you up. Pots are cheap Taiwan made Alpha, 15,000 rotations and they are done. Switches are cheaper versions of Shadow. It is shy of power supply decoupling caps too. I do mod the master strip here, that fixes the dynamic range/THD problems. THD will lower from .4% to .003% at +27 dbu. Stereo crosstalk improves to -74 dbu. That section is direct coupled, no caps in the signal path so the low end is deep and tight. These also benefit from replacing the mic preamp chip with the Audio Upgrades PIP module. I have a 32 in right now, owned by Steve Stevens of Billy Idol fame. I have one of jimwilliams Delta's here, modded up. It would eat that. Unless you are going for its sound. I don't know what the price of the ATB32 is OS, but here in Oz maybe 6000, secondhand. You might want to consider buying a soundcraft Delta, and getting Jim to go to town on it... better value, and IMO way better sound... cheers Wiz
|
|
|
Post by jcoutu1 on Aug 12, 2015 17:03:35 GMT -6
These are cheaply made, but offer a decent value as new analog consoles are rare. The mic pre's are ssm2017 or THAT1510 or BB INA217, depending on release. Stereo crosstalk is -48 dbu, not very good. THD is .4% at higher levels, rather crunchy. Mix past the zero VU and it gets dirty, fast. That limits dynamic range as the noise floor will eat you up. Pots are cheap Taiwan made Alpha, 15,000 rotations and they are done. Switches are cheaper versions of Shadow. It is shy of power supply decoupling caps too. I do mod the master strip here, that fixes the dynamic range/THD problems. THD will lower from .4% to .003% at +27 dbu. Stereo crosstalk improves to -74 dbu. That section is direct coupled, no caps in the signal path so the low end is deep and tight. These also benefit from replacing the mic preamp chip with the Audio Upgrades PIP module. I have a 32 in right now, owned by Steve Stevens of Billy Idol fame. I have one of jimwilliams Delta's here, modded up. It would eat that. Unless you are going for its sound. I don't know what the price of the ATB32 is OS, but here in Oz maybe 6000, secondhand. You might want to consider buying a soundcraft Delta, and getting Jim to go to town on it... better value, and IMO way better sound... cheers Wiz I had a lead on one locally for $2500. Seemed like a good enough deal, but passed. Sticking with what I've got for now.
|
|
|
Post by wiz on Aug 12, 2015 17:34:33 GMT -6
I have one of jimwilliams Delta's here, modded up. It would eat that. Unless you are going for its sound. I don't know what the price of the ATB32 is OS, but here in Oz maybe 6000, secondhand. You might want to consider buying a soundcraft Delta, and getting Jim to go to town on it... better value, and IMO way better sound... cheers Wiz I had a lead on one locally for $2500. Seemed like a good enough deal, but passed. Sticking with what I've got for now. probably the best idea.. you have the Midas F32 right? I have heard good things about that, how is it? cheers Wiz
|
|
|
Post by jcoutu1 on Aug 12, 2015 17:40:01 GMT -6
I had a lead on one locally for $2500. Seemed like a good enough deal, but passed. Sticking with what I've got for now. probably the best idea.. you have the Midas F32 right? I have heard good things about that, how is it? cheers Wiz Yep, F32. I'm happy enough with it. Always lusting after other things because I'm an addict, but it's a steal for the money. Always torn between ditching and going in the box for recall reasons or staying out for ergonomics though.
|
|
|
Post by mdmitch2 on Aug 12, 2015 20:03:03 GMT -6
I have one of jimwilliams Delta's here, modded up. It would eat that. Unless you are going for its sound. I am going for it's sound... I'm very curious to see the effect that a 'vintage' style, colored console has on my mixes..... I'm not that interested in a clean/neutral sounding board, but it would be cool to mod a few ATB channels for some added versatility. I also figure that if I didn't like it, the resale value of a used ATB would be better than a modded Delta. Even though the Delta would be technically superior.... there's probably not a big market for those second hand. The interesting thing about the ATB is that despite it's many detractors, it's actual owners seem to love it, even after years of ownership (excluding those that had the sketchy early versions). Maybe that's just the usual confirmation bias, but I'm curious nonetheless. I might just do it and see.... don't really have anything to lose except the time to build a few more cables.
|
|
|
Post by wiz on Aug 12, 2015 20:42:27 GMT -6
I have one of jimwilliams Delta's here, modded up. It would eat that. Unless you are going for its sound. I am going for it's sound... I'm very curious to see the effect that a 'vintage' style, colored console has on my mixes..... I'm not that interested in a clean/neutral sounding board, but it would be cool to mod a few ATB channels for some added versatility. I also figure that if I didn't like it, the resale value of a used ATB would be better than a modded Delta. Even though the Delta would be technically superior.... there's probably not a big market for those second hand. The interesting thing about the ATB is that despite it's many detractors, it's actual owners seem to love it, even after years of ownership (excluding those that had the sketchy early versions). Maybe that's just the usual confirmation bias, but I'm curious nonetheless. I might just do it and see.... don't really have anything to lose except the time to build a few more cables. If you do go for it, keep us in the loop... would love to hear your thoughts on it. cheers Wiz
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,023
|
Post by ericn on Aug 12, 2015 20:45:22 GMT -6
If you want some vibe there are some old Audio Arts and a Quantum Audio Labs in EBay , I would grab those before a Toft.
|
|