|
Post by mdmitch2 on Aug 13, 2015 10:46:54 GMT -6
If you want some vibe there are some old Audio Arts and a Quantum Audio Labs in EBay , I would grab those before a Toft. Thanks --- I did see those, and they look cool, but I don't really have time for a project right now... also the more modern routing and plethora of in/outs on the Toft is a big draw for me. But I'm definitely keeping my eye on ebay... Unfortunately, living in NC makes it a bit dicey to buy most ebay consoles since they're typically out of reasonable driving distance for me.... If I were spending the money on an API or Neve, I would just fly wherever and check it out in person, but it doesn't make sense for a <$5000 purchase. Ultimately, if I get the Toft, I'm fairly certain I wouldn't keep it more than a few years..... I just like transformers too much! But it'll be a great way to give the full OTB setup a spin. And maybe by then I can build a Steiger console.
|
|
|
Post by jeromemason on Aug 13, 2015 11:57:39 GMT -6
I worked on an old 80b back in the day. I demo'd the new at NAMM and its nothing like the original IMO.
|
|
|
Post by mdmitch2 on Aug 13, 2015 12:16:18 GMT -6
I worked on an old 80b back in the day. I demo'd the new at NAMM and its nothing like the original IMO. You're talking about the new trident 88? From what I gather that's based on the 80c and is quite clean, whereas the toft is based on the 80b. (Spoke to PMI rep yesterday).
|
|
|
Post by tonycamphd on Aug 13, 2015 13:01:42 GMT -6
if you're serious and you want vibe? send me a file, i'll run it through the JW modded Delta, and insert the capi VP28 and Lc53eq in line(if you can wait a week, you can add the Capi FC526 to that chain), I believe the JW Delta being the foundation or "canvas" if you will, will give the purest/base for the most vividly colored sound that is achievable from any piece of gear on the planet...period. You can make clean dirty all day long, but you really can't make dirty clean. I continue to insist that if you paint colors onto a dirty canvas, you will have dullness, and less contrast and excitement. If you paint colors on a glowing white canvas, you get big contrast and vivid excitement. The JW Delta is that glowing white canvas, not to mention the eq's are friggin beautiful!
Working on both of these consoles, i believe the JW modded Delta beats the living snot out of, and then eats the SSL G series console for lunch, it sounds eon's better!(i'm well aware of the features/routing capabilities of the SSL, but they matter not to me in a hybrid rig with some solid outboard)
Of course JMO, YMMV... but i doubt you'd disagree if you tried it, Brad McGowen said this exact same thing BTW(ssl vs JW Delta)
the JW modded console is a total bargain when you consider the Nuke style bang to buck ratio. BTW, the JW modded delta is pushing a 92db crosstalk spec @ 10k(big league measurement) vs the 48db crosstalk spec of this toft, which is measured @ what?(probably the little league 1k measurement?), that is a horrible CT spec even @10k, and would equate to a mix that sounds borderline mono narrow.
|
|
|
Post by mdmitch2 on Aug 13, 2015 16:07:38 GMT -6
if you're serious and you want vibe? send me a file, i'll run it through the JW modded Delta, and insert the capi VP28 and Lc53eq in line(if you can wait a week, you can add the Capi FC526 to that chain), I believe the JW Delta being the foundation or "canvas" if you will, will give the purest/base for the most vividly colored sound that is achievable from any piece of gear on the planet...period. You can make clean dirty all day long, but you really can't make dirty clean. I continue to insist that if you paint colors onto a dirty canvas, you will have dullness, and less contrast and excitement. If you paint colors on a glowing white canvas, you get big contrast and vivid excitement. The JW Delta is that glowing white canvas, not to mention the eq's are friggin beautiful! Working on both of these consoles, i believe the JW modded Delta beats the living snot out of, and then eats the SSL G series console for lunch, it sounds eon's better!(i'm well aware of the features/routing capabilities of the SSL, but they matter not to me in a hybrid rig with some solid outboard) Of course JMO, YMMV... but i doubt you'd disagree if you tried it, Brad McGowen said this exact same thing BTW(ssl vs JW Delta) the JW modded console is a total bargain when you consider the Nuke style bang to buck ratio. BTW, the JW modded delta is pushing a 92db crosstalk spec @ 10k(big league measurement) vs the 48db crosstalk spec of this toft, which is measured @ what?(probably the little league 1k measurement?), that is a horrible CT spec even @10k, and would equate to a mix that sounds borderline mono narrow. Thanks for the offer Tony. I might take you up on that... you want a stereo file? I'm already doing the VP28 on the 2 buss, so maybe just run through the delta? A big draw of the toft though is getting a boatload of colored EQs, and being able to mix quickly.... I like the idea of having one box that does everything (except compression).... I spend way too much time bouncing stems through color boxes as it is, and I think the toft might get me quicker results, and save money for me and clients. I am going to do some more research on the soundcraft though....
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,022
|
Post by ericn on Aug 13, 2015 16:52:40 GMT -6
if you're serious and you want vibe? send me a file, i'll run it through the JW modded Delta, and insert the capi VP28 and Lc53eq in line(if you can wait a week, you can add the Capi FC526 to that chain), I believe the JW Delta being the foundation or "canvas" if you will, will give the purest/base for the most vividly colored sound that is achievable from any piece of gear on the planet...period. You can make clean dirty all day long, but you really can't make dirty clean. I continue to insist that if you paint colors onto a dirty canvas, you will have dullness, and less contrast and excitement. If you paint colors on a glowing white canvas, you get big contrast and vivid excitement. The JW Delta is that glowing white canvas, not to mention the eq's are friggin beautiful! Working on both of these consoles, i believe the JW modded Delta beats the living snot out of, and then eats the SSL G series console for lunch, it sounds eon's better!(i'm well aware of the features/routing capabilities of the SSL, but they matter not to me in a hybrid rig with some solid outboard) Of course JMO, YMMV... but i doubt you'd disagree if you tried it, Brad McGowen said this exact same thing BTW(ssl vs JW Delta) the JW modded console is a total bargain when you consider the Nuke style bang to buck ratio. BTW, the JW modded delta is pushing a 92db crosstalk spec @ 10k(big league measurement) vs the 48db crosstalk spec of this toft, which is measured @ what?(probably the little league 1k measurement?), that is a horrible CT spec even @10k, and would equate to a mix that sounds borderline mono narrow. Thanks for the offer Tony. I might take you up on that... you want a stereo file? I'm already doing the VP28 on the 2 buss, so maybe just run through the delta? A big draw of the toft though is getting a boatload of colored EQs, and being able to mix quickly.... I like the idea of having one box that does everything (except compression).... I spend way too much time bouncing stems through color boxes as it is, and I think the toft might get me quicker results, and save money for me and clients. I am going to do some more research on the soundcraft though.... I would not put The Toft or any of the Numbers Trident in the color category. The Whole father of the British EQ BS is because the Trident is Pretty much the same as DDA, Soundcraft, Soundracs, Midas and others.
|
|
|
Post by jcoutu1 on Aug 13, 2015 17:51:12 GMT -6
if you're serious and you want vibe? send me a file, i'll run it through the JW modded Delta, and insert the capi VP28 and Lc53eq in line(if you can wait a week, you can add the Capi FC526 to that chain), I believe the JW Delta being the foundation or "canvas" if you will, will give the purest/base for the most vividly colored sound that is achievable from any piece of gear on the planet...period. You can make clean dirty all day long, but you really can't make dirty clean. I continue to insist that if you paint colors onto a dirty canvas, you will have dullness, and less contrast and excitement. If you paint colors on a glowing white canvas, you get big contrast and vivid excitement. The JW Delta is that glowing white canvas, not to mention the eq's are friggin beautiful! Working on both of these consoles, i believe the JW modded Delta beats the living snot out of, and then eats the SSL G series console for lunch, it sounds eon's better!(i'm well aware of the features/routing capabilities of the SSL, but they matter not to me in a hybrid rig with some solid outboard) Of course JMO, YMMV... but i doubt you'd disagree if you tried it, Brad McGowen said this exact same thing BTW(ssl vs JW Delta) the JW modded console is a total bargain when you consider the Nuke style bang to buck ratio. BTW, the JW modded delta is pushing a 92db crosstalk spec @ 10k(big league measurement) vs the 48db crosstalk spec of this toft, which is measured @ what?(probably the little league 1k measurement?), that is a horrible CT spec even @10k, and would equate to a mix that sounds borderline mono narrow. What's the crosstalk @ 1k on the Delta? Accordjng to the Midas manual, my F32 rates at 90db. Seems pretty good compared to the Toft spec that's been floating around.
|
|
|
Post by tonycamphd on Aug 13, 2015 18:29:12 GMT -6
if you're serious and you want vibe? send me a file, i'll run it through the JW modded Delta, and insert the capi VP28 and Lc53eq in line(if you can wait a week, you can add the Capi FC526 to that chain), I believe the JW Delta being the foundation or "canvas" if you will, will give the purest/base for the most vividly colored sound that is achievable from any piece of gear on the planet...period. You can make clean dirty all day long, but you really can't make dirty clean. I continue to insist that if you paint colors onto a dirty canvas, you will have dullness, and less contrast and excitement. If you paint colors on a glowing white canvas, you get big contrast and vivid excitement. The JW Delta is that glowing white canvas, not to mention the eq's are friggin beautiful! Working on both of these consoles, i believe the JW modded Delta beats the living snot out of, and then eats the SSL G series console for lunch, it sounds eon's better!(i'm well aware of the features/routing capabilities of the SSL, but they matter not to me in a hybrid rig with some solid outboard) Of course JMO, YMMV... but i doubt you'd disagree if you tried it, Brad McGowen said this exact same thing BTW(ssl vs JW Delta) the JW modded console is a total bargain when you consider the Nuke style bang to buck ratio. BTW, the JW modded delta is pushing a 92db crosstalk spec @ 10k(big league measurement) vs the 48db crosstalk spec of this toft, which is measured @ what?(probably the little league 1k measurement?), that is a horrible CT spec even @10k, and would equate to a mix that sounds borderline mono narrow. What's the crosstalk @ 1k on the Delta? Accordjng to the Midas manual, my F32 rates at 90db. Seems pretty good compared to the Toft spec that's been floating around. I believe it's 90db @1k stock, after jimwilliams mods i'm not sure, but it's gotta be over 100db i'd guess?
|
|
|
Post by jcoutu1 on Aug 13, 2015 18:51:32 GMT -6
FYI, according to the manual, the Toft specs at...
Crosstalk: Adjacent channel: -70dB @ 1kHz, -60dB @ 15kHz Adjacent group: -70dB @ 1kHz, -60dB @ 15kHz
Not as good as my Midas or the Delta apparently, but, not what was previously reported in the thread.
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,022
|
Post by ericn on Aug 13, 2015 19:05:38 GMT -6
FYI, according to the manual, the Toft specs at... Crosstalk: Adjacent channel: -70dB @ 1kHz, -60dB @ 15kHz Adjacent group: -70dB @ 1kHz, -60dB @ 15kHz Not as good as my Midas or the Delta apparently, but, not what was previously reported in the thread. I think those might be JWs actual measurements !
|
|
|
Post by tonycamphd on Aug 13, 2015 19:09:51 GMT -6
FYI, according to the manual, the Toft specs at... Crosstalk: Adjacent channel: -70dB @ 1kHz, -60dB @ 15kHz Adjacent group: -70dB @ 1kHz, -60dB @ 15kHz Not as good as my Midas or the Delta apparently, but, not what was previously reported in the thread. I think those might be JWs actual measurements ! yeah, and chances are that JW tested it @10k, he doesn't go into the fudging the numbers 1k territory for testing, it's where people test to get higher numbers generally.
|
|
|
Post by mdmitch2 on Aug 13, 2015 19:53:48 GMT -6
So I know that theoretically lower crosstalk is better, but I've also heard the argument that crosstalk can positively contribute to the gluing factor. So at what point does crosstalk go from being useful to being a nuisance... i.e.. narrow the mix significantly? And on that note, can a slightly narrower stereo field be sonically superior as is the case with Noah's API 1608 mod where he thought the wider sounding mix was 'false' (litz wire thread)?
It seems most of us are trying to straddle the line between pleasing sonic impurities and technical sonic perfection. But everyone has different ideas about how to get there..... interesting topic IMO.
|
|
|
Post by wiz on Aug 13, 2015 19:58:26 GMT -6
I think the difference between "glue" and "smear" is where the rubber meets the road.
cheers
Wiz
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,022
|
Post by ericn on Aug 13, 2015 20:11:20 GMT -6
So I know that theoretically lower crosstalk is better, but I've also heard the argument that crosstalk can positively contribute to the gluing factor. So at what point does crosstalk go from being useful to being a nuisance... i.e.. narrow the mix significantly? And on that note, can a slightly narrower stereo field be sonically superior as is the case with Noah's API 1608 mod where he thought the wider sounding mix was 'false' (litz wire thread)? It seems most of us are trying to straddle the line between pleasing sonic impurities and technical sonic perfection. But everyone has different ideas about how to get there..... interesting topic IMO. When you find it you know it, that's the problem there isn't a magic number and what works for me might not for you! Alan Hyatt has always been pretty up front with the fact that the Toft is a price point piece, if it wasn't so new and so few it would be a sub 1k used piece. Keep looking there will be a better board for the money local you just have to be ready to dive in before somebody else jumps.
|
|
|
Post by mdmitch2 on Aug 13, 2015 20:12:35 GMT -6
I think the difference between "glue" and "smear" is where the rubber meets the road. cheers Wiz That makes sense... But we have to let our ears be the judge, right? Or in this case can specs tell us everything we need to know?
|
|
|
Post by tonycamphd on Aug 13, 2015 20:23:34 GMT -6
So I know that theoretically lower crosstalk is better, but I've also heard the argument that crosstalk can positively contribute to the gluing factor. So at what point does crosstalk go from being useful to being a nuisance... i.e.. narrow the mix significantly? And on that note, can a slightly narrower stereo field be sonically superior as is the case with Noah's API 1608 mod where he thought the wider sounding mix was 'false' (litz wire thread)? It seems most of us are trying to straddle the line between pleasing sonic impurities and technical sonic perfection. But everyone has different ideas about how to get there..... interesting topic IMO. I'd default to the "it's easy to make clean dirty, not so easy to make dirty clean" argument once again... because it's easy to narrow a mix, just take your pan pots and turn them in, you can't do the opposite unless you use some plugin widener, and that introduces a zillion phase artifacts that i don't appreciate personally. Also, a not so good wide image can be created by phase anomalies, i don't think the crosstalk of a 1608 is particularly good?(i can't find any specs on the new API stuff? whats up with that?), no matter though, to me wider is bigger, and i can't remember ever wanting a smaller sounding mix.
|
|
|
Post by mdmitch2 on Aug 13, 2015 20:29:53 GMT -6
Alan Hyatt has always been pretty up front with the fact that the Toft is a price point piece, if it wasn't so new and so few it would be a sub 1k used piece. . I've seen his numerous comments to that effect --- but it's hard to deny the seemingly copious amounts of happy toft users, including pros in nice (busy) studios. I believe with most pro audio gear you get what you pay for... And it may not be the case with the toft, but there will always be those few products that are worth more than you paid. Some are engineered to be that way (warm audio) and others are happy accidents (cad m179). Probably just wishful thinking on my behalf! But if I do get one, we'll definitely get to the bottom of it...
|
|
|
Post by mdmitch2 on Aug 13, 2015 20:40:52 GMT -6
I'd default to the "it's easy to make clean dirty, not so easy to make dirty clean" argument once again... because it's easy to narrow a mix, just take your pan pots and turn them in, you can't do the opposite unless you use some plugin widener, and that introduces a zillion phase artifacts that i don't appreciate personally. Also, a not so good wide image can be created by phase anomalies, i don't think the crosstalk of a 1608 is particularly good?(i can't find any specs on the new API stuff? whats up with that?), no matter though, to me wider is bigger, and i can't remember ever wanting a smaller sounding mix. I think it's a good argument.... but lately, I've been thinking about SPEED as a priority, and if I like 90% of my mixes dirty, then why not just start from that point? For the 10% of the time I want cleaner, I can always mix ITB with a VP28 pair or future Silver Bullet.......... (at least that's the alternative argument I'm currently batting around in my cobwebbed brain). edit: guess it's the old "comp and EQ on the way in, or not" argument.... I couldnt find official 1608 specs either... I bet somebody has tested one though?
|
|
|
Post by wiz on Aug 13, 2015 22:23:06 GMT -6
I think the difference between "glue" and "smear" is where the rubber meets the road. cheers Wiz That makes sense... But we have to let our ears be the judge, right? Or in this case can specs tell us everything we need to know? Specs are not the be all and end all, of course. Ears are the arbiter.. plenty of gear that I , and you, and he loves 8) specs like crap. Specs, are really deserving of a decent, well informed conversation I reckon... cheers Wiz
|
|
|
Post by mdmitch2 on Aug 13, 2015 23:05:01 GMT -6
That makes sense... But we have to let our ears be the judge, right? Or in this case can specs tell us everything we need to know? Specs are not the be all and end all, of course. Ears are the arbiter.. plenty of gear that I , and you, and he loves 8) specs like crap. Surely the reason some manufacturers don't post specs...... I just wondered if there was some crosstalk threshold above which was irredeemable.
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,022
|
Post by ericn on Aug 14, 2015 6:24:52 GMT -6
I've seen his numerous comments to that effect --- but it's hard to deny the seemingly copious amounts of happy toft users, including pros in nice (busy) studios. I believe with most pro audio gear you get what you pay for... And it may not be the case with the toft, but there will always be those few products that are worth more than you paid. Some are engineered to be that way (warm audio) and others are happy accidents (cad m179). Probably just wishful thinking on my behalf! But if I do get one, we'll definitely get to the bottom of it... 2 points 1 insert Mackie 8 bus and this was the exact same argument I had with guys in the 90s ! They all say they should have listened ! 2 consider the new per ch price , compare it to the price of a new lowend EQ ! Can you say compromise ! And your going to put everything through it! If your going co go down the budget console road think Ghoast, or GS3 at least !
|
|
|
Post by tonycamphd on Aug 14, 2015 7:08:11 GMT -6
The repair nightmares that u will surely go through on a toft are reason alone to run like heck! I would personally never consider a console that wasn't channel strip modular, things go wrong, and not without good reason, it's fluoridated!
|
|
|
Post by jimwilliams on Aug 14, 2015 8:58:58 GMT -6
Specs are not the be all and end all, of course. Ears are the arbiter.. plenty of gear that I , and you, and he loves 8) specs like crap. Surely the reason some manufacturers don't post specs...... I just wondered if there was some crosstalk threshold above which was irredeemable. Pro's required specs back in the day to record top acts. This is no longer the case. It's more about percieved results these days with the gear taking a front seat in the production, artists are in the second row now. Given the talent some of them lack, that might be the best place for them.
|
|
|
Post by mdmitch2 on Aug 14, 2015 9:44:28 GMT -6
The repair nightmares that u will surely go through on a toft are reason alone to run like heck! I would personally never consider a console that wasn't channel strip modular, things go wrong, and not without good reason, it's fluoridated! Yeah it's built like a soundcraft ghost, which I've had to fix before. Doable, but a pretty huge PITA compared to a truly modular design, and certainly not something you want to deal with in the middle of a recording session. That's my biggest concern with the toft... Still would like to hear from someone that's lived with one for a while before I write it off. I gather from GS that Brad Mcgowan had one for a couple years in between a delta and a d&r vision. And I was also surprised to see that Fletcher was a fan of the toft (long after he sold mercenary). Also considering a used Neotek élan/elite or d&r Orion ... Just concerned they will be a bit boring in comparison.
|
|
|
Post by jimwilliams on Aug 14, 2015 12:24:28 GMT -6
The first thing I notice listening to Steven's 32 toft is the noise floor, a lot of it. It doesn't come from the modified master mix module, it is sourced noise from mostly the monitor input/pan pots.
Toft elected to design in pan pot buffers with 14 db of gain on each 072 opamp. On the main mix path it is disconnected using the mix switch. On the monitor mute, it is muted before those chips so their hiss is always fed to the main mix path = lots of noise.
The only fix is to cut up the pcb's to route the mute switch after the pan buffers or to remove all those monitor pan buffer chips, eliminating 1/2 of the inputs to the console. Neither are a good choice.
Once years ago I modified an entire 16 input console, so much work I never did another. But it was very quiet.
|
|