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Post by gravesnumber9 on Feb 8, 2022 17:50:08 GMT -6
This is mostly a thought experiment that I've been having off and on for months but kind of back on my mind following @soriantis the last few weeks. I figured I'd throw this out to you guys to see what you might do. There's no problem I'm solving here, just wondering if I'm leaving value on the table in unused Apollo features that could be better allocated to some other piece of gear.
TLDR: In my position, would you sell Apollos x8 and x4 (but keep quad satellite) and replace with MOTU 16a, a nice headphone amp, and a something else. I figure I'd have about $2,500 for the something else.
Where It Stands Today (Comprehensive, skip if you want to.)
At this point I am very rarely using any of the Apollo DSP for tracking and really only busses and "spot" usage in mixing. The slow buildup of hardware and outboard preamps were crowding out the Unison pres and now with the addition of the Portico 5032's (giving me four channels of great EQ) I'm not even using the inserts as much. On the mixing side, Console 1 combined with Studio One's very easy I/O hybrid mixing has crowded out a lot of my plugins, UAD included.
However, I'm using Ampex, Capitol Chambers, Galaxy Tape, Pure Plate, and Ocean Way Studio pretty much always. SSL Bus comp frequently. Pultecs here and there and 1176 or Distressor here and there. I haven't tested, but I'm pretty sure I can pull this all off on my Satellite. I also own about a billion UAD plugins that get less use these days but not sure what the used market is for these. VoxBox, Neves, etc.
I'm routing a loaded up Cranborne 500ADAT into the system as well as a UA 4-710. The Cranborne connects via ADAT as does the UA although the UA does not accept ADAT in so I use the analog inputs if I want to re-amp something or whatever.
I've got two Portico 5032's and four channels of Trident S20 in addition to the 4-710 and two Chroma's on the Cranborne. I rarely need to use all twelve of these in tracking but it has happened.
I've also got a little Coleman monitor switcher that I use to pop between KRK VXT6 and Pioneer RM-05. It's not uncommon that I would use three headphone outs with four being less common but not at all rare. (Cranborne has two outs as well and I also have a breakout for it that gives me two more. So right now I have eight HP outs.)
For outboard I'm running a Silver Bullet, an SB4001, two RND 535s, two RND 551s, two Chromas, an A/S Opto, two DBX 160a, an ART VLA mk1, two FMR RNPs, an FRM PBC, a Benson Studio Tall Bird analog spring reverb, and a Tascam 246 for trash color when I want it. I can mix with all of this concurrently with my present setup making efficient use of a 24/24 patchbay and the various creative routing options from the gear I've selected.
What's The Problem?
There is no "problem". The system works and sounds great and I usually sit down and feel extremely satisfied. But I hate paying for things I'm not using.
Go MOTU?
So if I bought a 16a for roughly $1k used, I think I could sell my Apollos for $4k combined fairly easily. That would leave me with $3k to play with. I'm actually only adding four more inputs and two more output on the 16a once you factor in monitors/headphones so that's not a real huge advantage. The advantage would be in getting a simpler system and also having $3k to play with.
What Would You Do?
What would you do? Stand pat? Don't fix what's not broken?
Sell it and buy $3k of new stuff? I'd need a headphone amp so figure something like the one Little Labs makes for $500. Then I could get like a Vintech 473 or four channels of EQ or something. Or I could blow all $2,500 on monitors. Or who knows what.
The smart move is to just leave it be, right? But man... $3k is a lot of money. Is there anything I'm not thinking of in terms of advantages to sicking with my all Apollo system?
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Post by wiz on Feb 8, 2022 17:59:46 GMT -6
I went the opposite way…. I had a Motu 16A for about 4 years a ton of outboard and a extremely modified soundcraft delta.
Sold it all and bought an Apollo X8 and a second hand octo satellite. I am ITB now for everything but my voice and acoustic guitars.
Couldn’t be happier with the sound and pocketed a bucketload of cash.
The workflow is much better and I don’t feel a sonic penalty.
I really enjoyed playing with hardware…but I am at the point in my life where I just want to write and record……and not really mess with all the associated rigmarole with hardware, and felt that ITB had reached the point where I was happy
Cheers
Wiz
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Post by sirthought on Feb 8, 2022 18:00:19 GMT -6
Sell them and put the days of these threads behind us, mate. If you aren't utilizing the DSP and are interested in other hardware, the Apollo is not helping you.
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Post by svart on Feb 8, 2022 18:05:27 GMT -6
I went motu from ssl. Couldn't be happier. I have the 828es, the 24ai and the 24ao. Currently I'm only using the 828es as the master with the 24ai as a slave through AVB.
The only gripe is that the routing software is just a webpage from the unit and it's a bugger getting used to how it works because both the sends and returns for all the streams are on the same page.
But the hardware is solid. Never a single failure to boot or load or connect so far out of a year of using it almost every other day.
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Post by OtisGreying on Feb 8, 2022 18:26:19 GMT -6
Without using unison pre’s or a necessity to track with effects the Apollo doesn’t offer anything for its big price you can’t get done with some less expensive converter - or a better converter for the same price.
I ditched Apollo and went Lynx. Kept both my satélites and use the plug-ins all over. I never tracked with plug-ins on my chains or really used the unison pre’s so I miss nothing. My 2 cents
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Feb 8, 2022 18:27:26 GMT -6
I went the opposite way…. I had a Motu 16A for about 4 years a ton of outboard and a extremely modified soundcraft delta. Sold it all and bought an Apollo X8 and a second hand octo satellite. I am ITB now for everything but my voice and acoustic guitars. Couldn’t be happier with the sound and pocketed a bucketload of cash. The workflow is much better and I don’t feel a sonic penalty. I really enjoyed playing with hardware…but I am at the point in my life where I just want to write and record……and not really mess with all the associated rigmarole with hardware, and felt that ITB had reached the point where I was happy Cheers Wiz I remember the Wiz selling his gear bonanza! It's funny, but for me ITB makes me timid or something. Hard to explain. I feel like I need to justify every EQ move and analyze every db of gain reduction. Totally a head thing for me, not even really a sound thing. I started adding a few pieces of outboard gear and finding that I was way bolder and made better mix decisions faster. Not because of the sonics, but just because of the way my brain works and maybe my life experience. Turning a knob is like listening to your stereo at home or getting the sound you want out of a guitar amp. Who sits there worrying about the EQ curves on a guitar amp? Nobody! It's silly to even imagine. On the other hand plugins encourage my tendency to massively overanalyze. To think and make the perfect move instead of just make music. I had the full intent of being only ITB. And maybe someday when I get better at this I can go back to ITB and be more confident in what I'm doing. But right now this is working to get me out of my head and into my ears (is that a phrase?) which is the biggest problem I need to solve for pretty much everything. Also... what would I do if I sold all this stuff? Buy a car? Ha! I've already got one of those!!! |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Feb 8, 2022 18:28:53 GMT -6
Without using unison pre’s or a necessity to track with effects the Apollo doesn’t offer anything for its big price you can’t get done with some less expensive converter - or a better converter for the same price. I ditched Apollo and went Lynx. Kept both my satélites and use the plug-ins all over. I never tracked with plug-ins on my chains or really used the unison pre’s so I miss nothing. My 2 cents Which Lynx did you go with? I'm just not sure the Lynx gets me enough above and beyond the MOTU to justify the price but that's a whole other can of worms. Best for golden eared people which I am definitely not. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Feb 8, 2022 18:31:29 GMT -6
I went motu from ssl. Couldn't be happier. I have the 828es, the 24ai and the 24ao. Currently I'm only using the 828es as the master with the 24ai as a slave through AVB. The only gripe is that the routing software is just a webpage from the unit and it's a bugger getting used to how it works because both the sends and returns for all the streams are on the same page. But the hardware is solid. Never a single failure to boot or load or connect so far out of a year of using it almost every other day. I wish there was a way to demo the routing software. What about the quality of the DSP plugins? I'm not sure I would use those much but I'd definitely make use of the reverb for headphone sweetening. I assume it's at least functional. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 8, 2022 18:40:01 GMT -6
Had all Apollos, Symphony mkii and ended up with Aurora N.
If you are not tracking with UA plugs, then you might want to consider the jump.
I haven’t used motu but I was sent a blind Apollo X Aurora N file snd picked them both correctly in a couple of seconds and bought Aurora and sold Apollo X.
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Post by svart on Feb 8, 2022 18:49:20 GMT -6
I went motu from ssl. Couldn't be happier. I have the 828es, the 24ai and the 24ao. Currently I'm only using the 828es as the master with the 24ai as a slave through AVB. The only gripe is that the routing software is just a webpage from the unit and it's a bugger getting used to how it works because both the sends and returns for all the streams are on the same page. But the hardware is solid. Never a single failure to boot or load or connect so far out of a year of using it almost every other day. I wish there was a way to demo the routing software. What about the quality of the DSP plugins? I'm not sure I would use those much but I'd definitely make use of the reverb for headphone sweetening. I assume it's at least functional. I'm not aware of DSP plugins, unfortunately. There are some eq/compressor options in the mixer portion but I don't really use that either. I do everything in the daw besides the routing to/from streams for both the audio tracks and headphone stems. |
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Post by gwlee7 on Feb 8, 2022 19:31:31 GMT -6
I would think about using the MOTU in “interface only” mode and use studio one’s stock plugs and it’s ability to do multiple cue mixes for tracking.
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Feb 8, 2022 19:35:38 GMT -6
Highly recommend the Little Labs headphone amp. Stellar.
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Post by gwlee7 on Feb 8, 2022 19:42:55 GMT -6
Highly recommend the Little Labs headphone amp. Stellar. What isn’t stellar from Little Labs? |
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Feb 8, 2022 20:05:38 GMT -6
Highly recommend the Little Labs headphone amp. Stellar. What isn’t stellar from Little Labs? No doubt! Love the PCP, Redcloud and headphone amp. |
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Post by OtisGreying on Feb 8, 2022 20:17:18 GMT -6
Without using unison pre’s or a necessity to track with effects the Apollo doesn’t offer anything for its big price you can’t get done with some less expensive converter - or a better converter for the same price. I ditched Apollo and went Lynx. Kept both my satélites and use the plug-ins all over. I never tracked with plug-ins on my chains or really used the unison pre’s so I miss nothing. My 2 cents Which Lynx did you go with? I'm just not sure the Lynx gets me enough above and beyond the MOTU to justify the price but that's a whole other can of worms. Best for golden eared people which I am definitely not. Aurora N. I love it and definitely feel both the AD and DA is clearer than my old x8. I’m definitely not a golden ear person but the main thing with the Lynx was - never thinking about it again. The converter situation is handled until my Lynx outright dies. A lot of records I love were made with Lynx so that was a huge part in my decision. I think Motu from X line Apollo is basically a lateral move based off what I’ve read but I’ve never heard the motu myself. I bought my Aurora N used so it made it a very easy decision. I think if you find one used it’s a no brainer. I paid 3400 for 24 channels of analog i/o and am very happy |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Feb 8, 2022 21:17:33 GMT -6
Hmm... ok. You know I don't actually mind making a lateral move in terms of conversion since the idea is to free up money for other upgrades. But I do have one eye on these Lynx's all the time in the name of "well, this way I never have to think about it."
So speaking of other upgrades. What would you guys spend the money on looking back up at the list up there. Let's say I had $2500 to spend after getting the little labs headphone amp.
Some thoughts...
- Everything sounds so much better routed through the Cranborne headphones. I don't know if it's the headphone amp or what. But it everything feels wider, more "soundstage" as I suppose one says.
- Interestingly, my RND 551's which live in the Cranborne do the same soundstage thing even when I'm listening through the Apollo's headphone jack. The Portico 5032 doesn't and it goes back through the x8 on the way in.
- When I've done summing on the Cranborne, it also gives everything a bigger soundstage. I just can't really sum full mixes on it because I need to use the 500 units for other things.
Is this what conversion is? Haha. But that wouldn't make sense because the Cranborne is getting fed an analog feed into its Aux when I use the headphones, conversion in the Apollo.
Is it just what happens when you have nice circuitry or something?
How do I make EVERYTHING sound like that? I can't just buy another Cranborne because my ADAT ins would be all taken up on the MOTU already. I could get the MOTU ADAT expander I suppose. But what is it that's making that sound? Is it just analog summing? Do I need a summing box?
Anyway... what would you spend the money on.
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Post by nick8801 on Feb 8, 2022 21:21:04 GMT -6
I went from Apollo to Lynx as well and I couldn’t be happier. Just added 4 channels of Lynx preamps to the unit and they are equally incredible. Clean, clear and detailed. Plus they have their own conversion. The only dislike I have with the unit is n control. They really need to figure that out. If you rely heavily on the Apollo mixer, n control will be a head scratcher for a while. I like the concept once I figured it out. It’s actually is capable of some great stuff, but sometimes it just stops working properly.
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Post by sirthought on Feb 8, 2022 21:40:55 GMT -6
You could take the money and buy an outboard reverb unit, such as the new Audio Scape XL-305R ($2250) or if you wanted 500 series, you could look at the AMS RMX-16 ($1300).
Both professional reverb options that you can track live with no latency and use on mixes.
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Post by notneeson on Feb 8, 2022 21:50:00 GMT -6
I went the opposite way…. I had a Motu 16A for about 4 years a ton of outboard and a extremely modified soundcraft delta. Sold it all and bought an Apollo X8 and a second hand octo satellite. I am ITB now for everything but my voice and acoustic guitars. Couldn’t be happier with the sound and pocketed a bucketload of cash. The workflow is much better and I don’t feel a sonic penalty. I really enjoyed playing with hardware…but I am at the point in my life where I just want to write and record……and not really mess with all the associated rigmarole with hardware, and felt that ITB had reached the point where I was happy Cheers Wiz It's funny, but for me ITB makes me timid or something. Hard to explain. I feel like I need to justify every EQ move and analyze every db of gain reduction. Totally a head thing for me, not even really a sound thing. Oh man, I'm always cautious about giving advice— but you gotta get over that. The beauty of ITB is that you can go too far, come back to the mix later and catch it. But the thing I have learned is you have to boss the sounds around pretty hard ITB when needed. At least for me. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Feb 8, 2022 22:11:14 GMT -6
You could take the money and buy an outboard reverb unit, such as the new Audio Scape XL-305R ($2250) or if you wanted 500 series, you could look at the AMS RMX-16 ($1300). Both professional reverb options that you can track live with no latency and use on mixes. Great suggestion. I'm totally on the same page which is why I got the Benson Studio Tall Bird. Made by my buddy in Portland. Analog spring reverb and if the AS one sounds anything like that it's a bargain at twice the price. But, another reverb is a really interesting suggestion. I like the idea of some unique little touches that might set my little project studio apart from crappier project studios. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Feb 8, 2022 22:12:18 GMT -6
It's funny, but for me ITB makes me timid or something. Hard to explain. I feel like I need to justify every EQ move and analyze every db of gain reduction. Totally a head thing for me, not even really a sound thing. Oh man, I'm always cautious about giving advice— but you gotta get over that. The beauty of ITB is that you can go too far, come back to the mix later and catch it. But the thing I have learned is you have to boss the sounds around pretty hard ITB when needed. At least for me. Great example. Using the A/S Opto, I now am way better at getting the UAD LA-2A to sound right. Now that I know that it's really supposed to sound like. And you're right, you gotta boss it around a little bit. Good way of putting it. |
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Post by sirthought on Feb 8, 2022 22:16:34 GMT -6
You could take the money and buy an outboard reverb unit, such as the new Audio Scape XL-305R ($2250) or if you wanted 500 series, you could look at the AMS RMX-16 ($1300). Both professional reverb options that you can track live with no latency and use on mixes. Great suggestion. I'm totally on the same page which is why I got the Benson Studio Tall Bird. Made by my buddy in Portland. Analog spring reverb and if the AS one sounds anything like that it's a bargain at twice the price. But, another reverb is a really interesting suggestion. I like the idea of some unique little touches that might set my little project studio apart from crappier project studios. If that's the case, I recommend hiring good musicians. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2022 1:38:43 GMT -6
I wish there was a way to demo the routing software. What about the quality of the DSP plugins? I'm not sure I would use those much but I'd definitely make use of the reverb for headphone sweetening. I assume it's at least functional. The in-built effects are a bit "2005", I have a Lexicon PCM 92 and the plan is to route that through an aux. Anyway, there are some absolutely great UA plugins but I must admit whilst in the UA world I never considered alternatives. Quite a few of the stock Logic plugs are far more impressive than they should be, I obtained a metric ton of plugs with NI Komplete that I'd never even bothered with despite them being mentioned in several top ten lists, I had the complete Tokyo Dawn set but besides the limiter never even tested them until recently. Ultimately I had without knowing it everything I needed to replace the Apollo. In terms of interfaces I much prefer the MOTU, as stated I've had the 1248 since 2014 and on occasion tried or bought others (Apollo, Symphony, Lynx and SSL Big), the MOTU still remains. It sounds good, it's flexible in crazy ways and it gets the job done no fuss. In terms of HW / OTB it has to be better than plugins with an interface to be even worth it. For example at this point I wouldn't want to be without my Shelford channel or Stam 2A, a good HW vari-mu as a parallel master like the IGS Tubecore is awesome, even enjoying the Chandler Opto / Bettermaker Mastering limiter paired with a Gainlabs modern Pultec style EQ. They're not exactly cheap though and IF they didn't add an obvious differentiating benefit worth the cost of admission they wouldn't be here right now.. The general quality of most audio products is too high and the competition too strong for anything to be less than amazing. I often look starry eye'd or nostalgic in terms of a big LFAC or mixer but every time I try to go down that route it never quite pans out like I'd expect. There has to be a need, like if I was constantly recording symphony orchestra's I'd consider an LFAC for a tracking console alone.. However I'm not, it's only me who needs at most 8 channels for a drum kit recording. In the background I've been testing various solutions and I said IF I recorded two albums I'd let myself buy whatever I fancy, Neve console / Trident? Sure, although after recent events there's a part of me that wonders whether or not I just knew my way around an SSL console and that's really what defined the "sound". I still love HW and I personally believe some pieces are a benefit but I'm not completely convinced going properly OTB would make as much difference as I think it would. |
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Post by BenjaminAshlin on Feb 9, 2022 3:12:36 GMT -6
You could take the money and buy an outboard reverb unit, such as the new Audio Scape XL-305R ($2250) or if you wanted 500 series, you could look at the AMS RMX-16 ($1300). Both professional reverb options that you can track live with no latency and use on mixes. Not sure what the advantage would be? If you setup your DAW to only monitor delay & reverb then whatever latency you have just acts as a pre-delay. An outboard compressor is more important for tracking IMO. |
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Post by wiz on Feb 9, 2022 3:15:42 GMT -6
I wish there was a way to demo the routing software. What about the quality of the DSP plugins? I'm not sure I would use those much but I'd definitely make use of the reverb for headphone sweetening. I assume it's at least functional. The in-built effects are a bit "2005", I have a Lexicon PCM 92 and the plan is to route that through an aux. Anyway, there are some absolutely great UA plugins but I must admit whilst in the UA world I never considered alternatives. Quite a few of the stock Logic plugs are far more impressive than they should be, I obtained a metric ton of plugs with NI Komplete that I'd never even bothered with despite them being mentioned in several top ten lists, I had the complete Tokyo Dawn set but besides the limiter never even tested them until recently. Ultimately I had without knowing it everything I needed to replace the Apollo. In terms of interfaces I much prefer the MOTU, as stated I've had the 1248 since 2014 and on occasion tried or bought others (Apollo, Symphony, Lynx and SSL Big), the MOTU still remains. It sounds good, it's flexible in crazy ways and it gets the job done no fuss. In terms of HW / OTB it has to be better than plugins with an interface to be even worth it. For example at this point I wouldn't want to be without my Shelford channel or Stam 2A, a good HW vari-mu as a parallel master like the IGS Tubecore is awesome, even enjoying the Chandler Opto / Bettermaker Mastering limiter paired with a Gainlabs modern Pultec style EQ. They're not exactly cheap though and IF they didn't add an obvious differentiating benefit worth the cost of admission they wouldn't be here right now.. The general quality of most audio products is too high and the competition too strong for anything to be less than amazing. I often look starry eye'd or nostalgic in terms of a big LFAC or mixer but every time I try to go down that route it never quite pans out like I'd expect. There has to be a need, like if I was constantly recording symphony orchestra's I'd consider an LFAC for a tracking console alone.. However I'm not, it's only me who needs at most 8 channels for a drum kit recording. In the background I've been testing various solutions and I said IF I recorded two albums I'd let myself buy whatever I fancy, Neve console / Trident? Sure, although after recent events there's a part of me that wonders whether or not I just knew my way around an SSL console and that's really what defined the "sound". I still love HW and I personally believe some pieces are a benefit but I'm not completely convinced going properly OTB would make as much difference as I think it would. I think the single biggest thing is workflow, for what you need.... and if something makes you feel better about what you do... or you just plain enjoy using it... that's your answer. If you can afford it, like it, and will use it and enjoy it.. buy it. If the gear search and continual web surfing over the latest thing you read about is getting in the way of making money and or having fun, its probably an issue... cheers Wiz |
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