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Post by notneeson on Feb 14, 2022 22:30:37 GMT -6
I’ve been seriously thinking about going old PTHD 192 now that they are cheap. Dumb idea? If you don’t need modern plugins, or offline bounce, PT10HD is stable AF and a great tracking solution.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Feb 15, 2022 3:13:11 GMT -6
I gotta say, now that I've got the MOTU working... I'm really surprised at how difficult it was to do hybrid mixing with the Apollo's this whole time. I didn't even know it.
Aside from the inconvenience of bouncing around windows, the main thing is that the latency made it impossible to do any real time summed monitoring without odd workarounds in the DAW. So I'd have to chain all kind of VCA's and jump through these weird hoops to route everything so that my signals lined up right. Hard to explain briefly but I'm sure some of you have done the same thing.
Anyway, now that I can just route the the Orbit summed mix back in to a stereo track and flip on the monitoring, whoa. So much easier.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2022 4:57:00 GMT -6
But I've always said, use what works best for you. Just don't let it control how you work or the choices you make because you'll spin your wheels just like I did. Well it was a decent anecdote but not exactly pertinent to the points I was addressing. Svart for a start you're not the only experienced technical engineer on this board whose fallen prey to the idiosyncrasies of this industry, I've done it and so have many others. Also I'm not noodle waving because compared to some of the mad setups on these forums it's nothing but you're also not the only one whose sunk a lot of money into this venture (even my puny hybrid setup cost more than an SSL Origin). Back in 2007 I sold an SSL 4K with racks of outboard due to fiscal difficulties and even before that I had to supplement my income as a part time field tech contractor repairing or installing audio equipment (of every type from desks, Hi-FI to TDM phone systems). Eventually I threw in the studio towel and entered into the lucrative career of audio / network systems development. Fortunate really because the economy over here pretty much collapsed a few years later and the first thing to go was cosmetic fringe services. Anyway, you issued a blanket 2% difference statement. The "toolbag" reference was formed from that plus all the reasons you've mentioned, as in the initial cost, maintenance and lack of flexibility. If there really was only a 2% difference then it would be pretty daft to buy the HW no? If you're not gaining bar the ergonomics of twisting knobs which you could just buy an empty case with rotaries if that really tickles your fancy what's the point? Let me just say that I'm coming at this from a different angle to you, I've known an excellent modern sound engineer for a long time who could run rings around most using a Focusrite interface and stock DAW plugs. I was an advocate for low end theory and I didn't (often) get wrapped up in flavour of the month stuff, I'd heard too much decent material from digital desks to random equipment to really take stock in the collective opinion. That being said most plugs (and some DAWS) back in 2005 really did suck but fortunately tech rapidly evolves. IME even today it's still a venerable smorgasbord of random quality but again that applies to both HW and software. A recent comparison between the waves API 5500 plugin and the HW rang alarm bells so IMO it's probably best to spend 5 minutes researching. I'm sure there's a better rendition of the API 5500 in plugin form out there and even the UA stuff, some of it was spot on and others weren't in the same stratosphere. My point? I'm glad you had an epiphany but it's not as cut and dry as you're making it out to be IME. For me it's about finding what works irrelevant of the form factor it's delivered in, learning to use it properly and then running with it till completion. With experience you learn to decipher what you're looking for, I'm not trying to compete with modern or retro music and I've selected specific plugs or HW pieces to complement what I'M trying to achieve. On a side note everyone seems to disagree with me that the musicians, engineers, instruments, monitors and rooms matter more than anything else but from what you're saying it seems you've finally reached that conclusion too.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2022 7:08:51 GMT -6
I gotta say, now that I've got the MOTU working... I'm really surprised at how difficult it was to do hybrid mixing with the Apollo's this whole time. I didn't even know it. Aside from the inconvenience of bouncing around windows, the main thing is that the latency made it impossible to do any real time summed monitoring without odd workarounds in the DAW. So I'd have to chain all kind of VCA's and jump through these weird hoops to route everything so that my signals lined up right. Hard to explain briefly but I'm sure some of you have done the same thing. Anyway, now that I can just route the the Orbit summed mix back in to a stereo track and flip on the monitoring, whoa. So much easier. What daws? Logic and Reaper have easy hardware inserts. Cubase is a pita unless you go in with everything planned beforehand.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Feb 15, 2022 9:02:30 GMT -6
I gotta say, now that I've got the MOTU working... I'm really surprised at how difficult it was to do hybrid mixing with the Apollo's this whole time. I didn't even know it. Aside from the inconvenience of bouncing around windows, the main thing is that the latency made it impossible to do any real time summed monitoring without odd workarounds in the DAW. So I'd have to chain all kind of VCA's and jump through these weird hoops to route everything so that my signals lined up right. Hard to explain briefly but I'm sure some of you have done the same thing. Anyway, now that I can just route the the Orbit summed mix back in to a stereo track and flip on the monitoring, whoa. So much easier. What daws? Logic and Reaper have easy hardware inserts. Cubase is a pita unless you go in with everything planned beforehand. . S1 and Logic. But that’s not the problem. The delay compensation is fantastic for hardware plug-ins, but to monitor an external sum the way that I wanted to was never quite simple because I couldn’t monitor it directly because of latency.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2022 9:06:19 GMT -6
Honesty guys, what are you going to ditch the Apollo for? There aren’t a lot of choices that won’t shit the bed. For serious itb work, it’s pretty much:
1) RME over any protocol 2) Lynx over PCI-E and Thunderbolt. NOT USB 3) UAD over Thunderbolt 4) Audinate and HDX cards. And the Audinate Dante cards and other Ethernet based solutions use higher cpu than average third party usb solutions despite more stable drivers
MOTU can be fast and solid but craps put before stuff like Apogee ime. Apogee and especially Prism sound awesome, way better than RME and UAD unless you have a Duet, but the drivers just crap out. The limiting factor in my rig is the MOTU and Apogee interfaces. And yes they can all implement Core Audio and third party ASIO drivers differently and handle buffer differently. The MOTU AVB drivers actually got worse on better set up for audio computers to make them usable on stuff like Dells and low end older Macs. My Apogee Symphony Desktop’s third party drivers work great until the session has a lot of latent plugs. MOTU’s buffer handling craps out before that. It’s time to just buy the Lynx and put my money where my mouth is.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Feb 15, 2022 9:11:41 GMT -6
Honesty guys, what are you going to ditch the Apollo for? There aren’t a lot of choices that won’t shit the bed. For serious itb work, it’s pretty much: 1) RME over any protocol 2) Lynx over PCI-E and Thunderbolt. NOT USB 3) UAD over Thunderbolt 4) Audinate and HDX cards. And the Audinate Dante cards and other Ethernet based solutions use higher cpu than average third party usb solutions despite more stable drivers MOTU can be fast and solid but craps put before stuff like Apogee ime. Apogee and especially Prism sound awesome, way better than RME and UAD unless you have a Duet, but the drivers just crap out. The limiting factor in my rig is the MOTU and Apogee interfaces. And yes they can all implement Core Audio and third party ASIO drivers differently and handle buffer differently. The MOTU AVB drivers actually got worse on better set up for audio computers to make them usable on stuff like Dells and low end older Macs. My Apogee Symphony Desktop’s third party drivers work great until the session has a lot of latent plugs. MOTU’s buffer handling craps out before that. It’s time to just buy the Lynx and put my money where my mouth is. I’m not gonna lie, in the last few days of trying to get MOTU working I tried to justify financial expense of a 32 channel Lynx more than once. The closest I could get was that their modular build is pretty much future proof, even with ever-changing connection protocols. But in my case at least, and only in my case, the budget was dictated by two pieces of gear that I’m selling to pay for it and I really couldn’t justify any extra expense considering the fact of my previous was technically working just fine.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2022 9:25:21 GMT -6
Honesty guys, what are you going to ditch the Apollo for? There aren’t a lot of choices that won’t shit the bed. For serious itb work, it’s pretty much: 1) RME over any protocol 2) Lynx over PCI-E and Thunderbolt. NOT USB 3) UAD over Thunderbolt 4) Audinate and HDX cards. And the Audinate Dante cards and other Ethernet based solutions use higher cpu than average third party usb solutions despite more stable drivers MOTU can be fast and solid but craps put before stuff like Apogee ime. Apogee and especially Prism sound awesome, way better than RME and UAD unless you have a Duet, but the drivers just crap out. The limiting factor in my rig is the MOTU and Apogee interfaces. And yes they can all implement Core Audio and third party ASIO drivers differently and handle buffer differently. The MOTU AVB drivers actually got worse on better set up for audio computers to make them usable on stuff like Dells and low end older Macs. My Apogee Symphony Desktop’s third party drivers work great until the session has a lot of latent plugs. MOTU’s buffer handling craps out before that. It’s time to just buy the Lynx and put my money where my mouth is. I’m not gonna lie, in the last few days of trying to get MOTU working I tried to justify financial expense of a 32 channel Lynx more than once. The closest I could get was that their modular build is pretty much future proof, even with ever-changing connection protocols. But in my case at least, and only in my case, the budget was dictated by two pieces of gear that I’m selling to pay for it and I really couldn’t justify any extra expense considering the fact of my previous was technically working just fine. I’ve lost my work due to the Symphony Desktop drivers crapping out. I’m just going to get the Hilo over t bolt 3. No idea what I will use for a multichannel interface now. I prioritize monitoring DA over AD really unless it’s like a Scarlett or something terrible. Aurora N is so expensive. Maybe I’ll just go RME? They just had a huge jump in the Babyface Pro with the ess chips.
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Post by svart on Feb 15, 2022 10:08:30 GMT -6
But I've always said, use what works best for you. Just don't let it control how you work or the choices you make because you'll spin your wheels just like I did. Well it was a decent anecdote but not exactly pertinent to the points I was addressing. Svart for a start you're not the only experienced technical engineer on this board whose fallen prey to the idiosyncrasies of this industry, I've done it and so have many others. Also I'm not noodle waving because compared to some of the mad setups on these forums it's nothing but you're also not the only one whose sunk a lot of money into this venture (even my puny hybrid setup cost more than an SSL Origin). Back in 2007 I sold an SSL 4K with racks of outboard due to fiscal difficulties and even before that I had to supplement my income as a part time field tech contractor repairing or installing audio equipment (of every type from desks, Hi-FI to TDM phone systems). Eventually I threw in the studio towel and entered into the lucrative career of audio / network systems development. Fortunate really because the economy over here pretty much collapsed a few years later and the first thing to go was cosmetic fringe services. Anyway, you issued a blanket 2% difference statement. The "toolbag" reference was formed from that plus all the reasons you've mentioned, as in the initial cost, maintenance and lack of flexibility. If there really was only a 2% difference then it would be pretty daft to buy the HW no? If you're not gaining bar the ergonomics of twisting knobs which you could just buy an empty case with rotaries if that really tickles your fancy what's the point? Let me just say that I'm coming at this from a different angle to you, I've known an excellent modern sound engineer for a long time who could run rings around most using a Focusrite interface and stock DAW plugs. I was an advocate for low end theory and I didn't (often) get wrapped up in flavour of the month stuff, I'd heard too much decent material from digital desks to random equipment to really take stock in the collective opinion. That being said most plugs (and some DAWS) back in 2005 really did suck but fortunately tech rapidly evolves. IME even today it's still a venerable smorgasbord of random quality but again that applies to both HW and software. A recent comparison between the waves API 5500 plugin and the HW rang alarm bells so IMO it's probably best to spend 5 minutes researching. I'm sure there's a better rendition of the API 5500 in plugin form out there and even the UA stuff, some of it was spot on and others weren't in the same stratosphere. My point? I'm glad you had an epiphany but it's not as cut and dry as you're making it out to be IME. For me it's about finding what works irrelevant of the form factor it's delivered in, learning to use it properly and then running with it till completion. With experience you learn to decipher what you're looking for, I'm not trying to compete with modern or retro music and I've selected specific plugs or HW pieces to complement what I'M trying to achieve. On a side note everyone seems to disagree with me that the musicians, engineers, instruments, monitors and rooms matter more than anything else but from what you're saying it seems you've finally reached that conclusion too. Well, firstly, I'm sorry you had to give up your 4K and studio. Secondly, I don't think people are "daft" for buying hardware at all. I still use mine to some degree when going into the A/D, like my favorite vocal chain is 1272 into an 1176 before the A/D. My favorite bass setup is DI into a tube pre into CAPI EQ then into 1176 and finally the A/D. However, it's mostly a workflow thing rather than preferred sonics. But I'm sure you've seen the big studios closing left and right, right? Big format consoles, racks full of gear, etc, are all being replaced by a DAW workstation, a few pieces of outboard and lots of plugins. People are simplifying their setups over time. Even some of the big "analog only" pros are going more and more ITB. Some of that is due to plugs being much better now, some of that is due to not having the incomes to support large-format studios anymore, while finally some of that is simply falling in line with peers who either never had the gear, or chose to move away from it for whatever reasons. Nobody is daft for sticking with analog outboard, but fewer and fewer are prioritizing it as time moves on. I'm not saying that the epiphany for me was overnight either. There was a lot of disbelief and denial for me. I understand the dissonance that happens when firmly held beliefs are challenged by facts at hand. Because of this, I personally think that a lot of holdouts have a romantic notion about hardware that biases their viewpoints, and I say this because it happened to me as well. There's lots of examples around of folks who claim to clearly hear differences between various pieces of gear only for others to claim not to hear any difference. I find that the truth is generally somewhere in between.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2022 10:11:01 GMT -6
Honesty guys, what are you going to ditch the Apollo for? There aren’t a lot of choices that won’t shit the bed. For serious itb work, it’s pretty much: 1) RME over any protocol 2) Lynx over PCI-E and Thunderbolt. NOT USB 3) UAD over Thunderbolt 4) Audinate and HDX cards. And the Audinate Dante cards and other Ethernet based solutions use higher cpu than average third party usb solutions despite more stable drivers Shall we inform all the studio's using these that they need to ditch them ASAP? *Warning, no serious work can be done without these listed interfaces. LOL.. C'mon Dan, watcha doing? I'm not having issues over TB2, in fact I'm chilling on my day off putting a song together without it being attached to an audio interface. Just got some Beyer's plugged into my MBP with about 50 tracks and lots o' plugs.. If it craps out up the buffer, freeze some tracks y'know the stuff we've always had to do when things get a bit hairy. The UFX 2 (USB) got a bit miffed at 32 samples on my old Windows machine (I7 6950X) and the Apollo X6 over TB which was rubbish native which may I say crapped out way before the MOTU did. I do remember RME's PCI-E hammerfall, that thing was a latency beast and more solid than a steel wall.
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Post by svart on Feb 15, 2022 10:11:51 GMT -6
I want to commend you on your honesty and humbleness on this post Cris... We trod a similar path cheers Wiz If there's anything I have to offer this group or any other audio engineer out there it's a truthful look at my mistakes. I hope that folks can learn from them as I have learned from them. Sometimes it's better to learn from mistakes of others than to be taught someone's idea of what is correct.
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Post by enlav on Feb 15, 2022 10:17:04 GMT -6
I’ve lost my work due to the Symphony Desktop drivers crapping out. I’m just going to get the Hilo over t bolt 3. No idea what I will use for a multichannel interface now. I prioritize monitoring DA over AD really unless it’s like a Scarlett or something terrible. Aurora N is so expensive. Maybe I’ll just go RME? They just had a huge jump in the Babyface Pro with the ess chips. Supposedly, the Sweetwater and VK's of the world were going to be getting RME interfaces as early as this month (or even late January), but nothing has come yet. I'm wondering if the UFX II and UFX+ have needed to be changed in any major ways like their 2-channel AD/DA product (the black-colored unit that was linked in either this or the other thread).
I haven't seen any "update" to either product from RME though.
I'm personally trying to figure out how to fit the Aurora(n) into my budget if we're still waiting on RME by the end of February.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2022 10:35:42 GMT -6
Nobody is daft for sticking with analog outboard, but fewer and fewer are prioritizing it as time moves on. I'm not saying that the epiphany for me was overnight either. There was a lot of disbelief and denial for me. I understand the dissonance that happens when firmly held beliefs are challenged by facts at hand. Because of this, I personally think that a lot of holdouts have a romantic notion about hardware that biases their viewpoints, and I say this because it happened to me as well. There's lots of examples around of folks who claim to clearly hear differences between various pieces of gear only for others to claim not to hear any difference. I find that the truth is generally somewhere in between. Cheers, let me just say I'm not really a HW fan, mainly because I find the workflow annoying.. I've waxed nostalgic about desks or mixers on occasion but every time I buy one its lasted no longer than a week. Just like the SSL thread, everyone saw it coming (even me) but I keep buying them for reasons I'm not quite sure about. Anyway there's no disbelief, bias or denial here.. I don't keep stuff around for romantic notions and any chance I can get to sell some HW I'll be straight on it. I like crafting music and sonic shaping but fundamentally there just tools to me. Point is, there's more than one side to this and I'll say to anyone that asks mixing either way isn't going to make or break a record. However certain HW, usually more saturated intentionally different stuff that's not been cloned to death adds certain elements. I think the approach you're going for determines what you'll use as opposed to just quality per se.. As for the rest of them, I don't care what they do it's my money..
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2022 11:19:11 GMT -6
Honesty guys, what are you going to ditch the Apollo for? There aren’t a lot of choices that won’t shit the bed. For serious itb work, it’s pretty much: 1) RME over any protocol 2) Lynx over PCI-E and Thunderbolt. NOT USB 3) UAD over Thunderbolt 4) Audinate and HDX cards. And the Audinate Dante cards and other Ethernet based solutions use higher cpu than average third party usb solutions despite more stable drivers Shall we inform all the studio's using these that they need to ditch them ASAP? *Warning, no serious work can be done without these listed interfaces. LOL.. C'mon Dan, watcha doing? I'm not having issues over TB2, in fact I'm chilling on my day off putting a song together without it being attached to an audio interface. Just got some Beyer's plugged into my MBP with about 50 tracks and lots o' plugs.. If it craps out up the buffer, freeze some tracks y'know the stuff we've always had to do when things get a bit hairy. The UFX 2 (USB) got a bit miffed at 32 samples on my old Windows machine (I7 6950X) and the Apollo X6 over TB which was rubbish native which may I say crapped out way before the MOTU did. I do remember RME's PCI-E hammerfall, that thing was a latency beast and more solid than a steel wall. Freezing is workflow killer. Total workflow killer. Hate it. I spent thousands of dollars to not have to freeze. They are just limited in what they can do itb at the push of a button.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2022 11:25:50 GMT -6
Freezing is workflow killer. Total workflow killer. Hate it. I spent thousands of dollars to not have to freeze. They are just limited in what they can do itb at the push of a button. I was being a bit facetious plus silly there but it's all in jest and I mean nothing by it. I'll always try to help if I can.. So what we talking here? Are you Mac / Windows? TB / USB? Which interface? FW / Driver version? Which DAW? Plugin / track amounts? CPU percentage before throttle? I'm having no issues when throwing a lot of plugs at it over TB2 / 32 samples but my setup will be completely different to yours.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2022 11:31:52 GMT -6
I’ve lost my work due to the Symphony Desktop drivers crapping out. I’m just going to get the Hilo over t bolt 3. No idea what I will use for a multichannel interface now. I prioritize monitoring DA over AD really unless it’s like a Scarlett or something terrible. Aurora N is so expensive. Maybe I’ll just go RME? They just had a huge jump in the Babyface Pro with the ess chips. Supposedly, the Sweetwater and VK's of the world were going to be getting RME interfaces as early as this month (or even late January), but nothing has come yet. I'm wondering if the UFX II and UFX+ have needed to be changed in any major ways like their 2-channel AD/DA product (the black-colored unit that was linked in either this or the other thread).
I haven't seen any "update" to either product from RME though.
I'm personally trying to figure out how to fit the Aurora(n) into my budget if we're still waiting on RME by the end of February.
RME doesn’t announce product changes. They just change out all of the converters, say it all the sounds the same, and that’s that. Of course it never sounds the same. They had to redesign every interface they make due to the AKM fire.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2022 11:52:32 GMT -6
Freezing is workflow killer. Total workflow killer. Hate it. I spent thousands of dollars to not have to freeze. They are just limited in what they can do itb at the push of a button. I was being a bit facetious plus silly there but it's all in jest and I mean nothing by it. I'll always try to help if I can.. So what we talking here? Are you Mac / Windows? TB / USB? Which interface? FW / Driver version? Which DAW? Plugin / track amounts? CPU percentage before throttle? I'm having no issues when throwing a lot of plugs at it over TB2 / 32 samples but my setup will be completely different to yours. I’m running Fuse, Uhe, and Goodhertz plugs on every track, sends to heavy reverbs and delays like Colour Copy and Sonsig, mostly Tokyo Dawn dynamics plugs on insane, a crazy bass di chain, and my system doesn’t throttle. I have a water- cooled i9-12900 with the performance cores running at 5.2 ghz all the time. I am running at 17-20% cpu use in Reaper on Windows 10 before the Apogee Usb drivers give out. If I turn off anticipative processing, I am only at 20 something percent cpu use but the Apogee and MOTU drivers will not play back my sessions at all. The only real world limiting factor for me ate the interface drivers. M1 Mac can’t play back my bass di bus with the sends at all without cranking up anticipative rendering to like 400 ms. Same as my older laptops, which sometimes need like 600 ms and the plug-in guis just lag like hell. The usb drivers also sometimes give out on Mac before Windows despite core audio. Like they’re more plug and play but they’ll start stuttering without throttling before. And again turn off anticipative processing in reaper and the interfaces just don’t play back at all with over a certain amount of delay compensation. I don’t want to find out what would happen to them in Slow Tools. This is at max buffer, max fan speed, cool temps on my i9-12000 desktop.The Apogee and MOTU usb drivers just stutter and won’t play back without anticipative fx processing AT ALL.
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Post by enlav on Feb 15, 2022 12:00:51 GMT -6
RME doesn’t announce product changes. They just change out all of the converters, say it all the sounds the same, and that’s that. Of course it never sounds the same. They had to redesign every interface they make due to the AKM fire. This is probably just the exception to the norm then: (Upon further inspection though, this only pertains to the DAC, and the AD/DA model. Though I'm curious if they finally ran out of AKM chips for their UFX models, and if that's what's keeping them from restocking shelves; or if they're already fit with ESS.)
The sentiment in this video is one that similarly disregards the notion that anyone could hear the difference between these converters, pre or post AKM/ESS. Whether or not that's true isn't an argument I would ever want to be a part of, it's more so that I can completely understand how this viewpoint can be seen as dismissive.
Honestly, if either the UFX II or UFX+ would have shown up in the last few months, I would have ordered it instantly, but the more I have time to dwell on choices and continue to read this forum, the more I look at the Aurora(n) 8-TB3. The 8 channel version isn't much more than the Hilo, and adding AES down the road isn't too costly (and according to Lynx Support, an upgrade that the user can do, as opposed to having to send it in).
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Post by svart on Feb 15, 2022 12:03:44 GMT -6
I was being a bit facetious plus silly there but it's all in jest and I mean nothing by it. I'll always try to help if I can.. So what we talking here? Are you Mac / Windows? TB / USB? Which interface? FW / Driver version? Which DAW? Plugin / track amounts? CPU percentage before throttle? I'm having no issues when throwing a lot of plugs at it over TB2 / 32 samples but my setup will be completely different to yours. I’m running Fuse, Uhe, and Goodhertz plugs on every track, sends to heavy reverbs and delays like Colour Copy and Sonsig, mostly Tokyo Dawn dynamics plugs on insane, a crazy bass di chain, and my system doesn’t throttle. I have a water- cooled i9-12900 with the performance cores running at 5.2 ghz all the time. I am running at 17-20% cpu use in Reaper on Windows 10 before the Apogee Usb drivers give out. If I turn off anticipative processing, I am only at 20 something percent cpu use but the Apogee and MOTU drivers will not play back my sessions at all. The only real world limiting factor for me ate the interface drivers. M1 Mac can’t play back my bass di bus with the sends at all without cranking up anticipative rendering to like 400 ms. Same as my older laptops, which sometimes need like 600 ms and the plug-in guis just lag like hell. The usb drivers also sometimes give out on Mac before Windows despite core audio. Like they’re more plug and play but they’ll start stuttering without throttling before. And again turn off anticipative processing in reaper and the interfaces just don’t play back at all with over a certain amount of delay compensation. I don’t want to find out what would happen to them in Slow Tools. This is at max buffer, max fan speed, cool temps on my i9-12000 desktop.The Apogee and MOTU usb drivers just stutter and won’t play back without anticipative fx processing AT ALL. Is there an easy way to see whether something using anticipative processing? I run Reaper on Win 10 with MOTU USB and I never get stuttering.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2022 12:13:58 GMT -6
I’m running Fuse, Uhe, and Goodhertz plugs on every track, sends to heavy reverbs and delays like Colour Copy and Sonsig, mostly Tokyo Dawn dynamics plugs on insane, a crazy bass di chain, and my system doesn’t throttle. I have a water- cooled i9-12900 with the performance cores running at 5.2 ghz all the time. I am running at 17-20% cpu use in Reaper on Windows 10 before the Apogee Usb drivers give out. If I turn off anticipative processing, I am only at 20 something percent cpu use but the Apogee and MOTU drivers will not play back my sessions at all. The only real world limiting factor for me ate the interface drivers. M1 Mac can’t play back my bass di bus with the sends at all without cranking up anticipative rendering to like 400 ms. Same as my older laptops, which sometimes need like 600 ms and the plug-in guis just lag like hell. The usb drivers also sometimes give out on Mac before Windows despite core audio. Like they’re more plug and play but they’ll start stuttering without throttling before. And again turn off anticipative processing in reaper and the interfaces just don’t play back at all with over a certain amount of delay compensation. I don’t want to find out what would happen to them in Slow Tools. This is at max buffer, max fan speed, cool temps on my i9-12000 desktop.The Apogee and MOTU usb drivers just stutter and won’t play back without anticipative fx processing AT ALL. Is there an easy way to see whether something using anticipative processing? I run Reaper on Win 10 with MOTU USB and I never get stuttering. Preferences, Buffer. Reaper defaults to 200ms of anticipative processing. It lags plug-in VU meter ballistics somewhat but works really well with a ton of interfaces. If you crank it, plug-in controls get really laggy but it can turn even a few years old laptop into a mixing beast.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2022 13:09:05 GMT -6
The usb drivers also sometimes give out on Mac before Windows despite core audio. Like they’re more plug and play but they’ll start stuttering without throttling before. And again turn off anticipative processing in reaper and the interfaces just don’t play back at all with over a certain amount of delay compensation. I don’t want to find out what would happen to them in Slow Tools. This is at max buffer, max fan speed, cool temps on my i9-12000 desktop.The Apogee and MOTU usb drivers just stutter and won’t play back without anticipative fx processing AT ALL. IME MOTU and USB don't really mix but the bigger issue could be the plugs. In Logic there's a way to see plugin use by distribution meaning you can see which threads are being taken up by specific plugs, now a DAW should automatically thread per channel (last time I checked) but for some reason it doesn't always work that way. If I run multiple instances of Kontakt and put Ozone on the master then it bricks it irrelevant of whether I'd use RME, MOTU or MH.. If I look at system monitor it'll still show that I'm using 15-20% of my CPU but because one of the threads are maxed out we're done, it'll pop / crackle / stall etc.. But If I use 200+ Logic plugs distributed across many channels for example I don't have issues. I'm not familiar with Reaper so is there a way to analyse this stuff?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2022 14:36:13 GMT -6
The usb drivers also sometimes give out on Mac before Windows despite core audio. Like they’re more plug and play but they’ll start stuttering without throttling before. And again turn off anticipative processing in reaper and the interfaces just don’t play back at all with over a certain amount of delay compensation. I don’t want to find out what would happen to them in Slow Tools. This is at max buffer, max fan speed, cool temps on my i9-12000 desktop.The Apogee and MOTU usb drivers just stutter and won’t play back without anticipative fx processing AT ALL. IME MOTU and USB don't really mix but the bigger issue could be the plugs. In Logic there's a way to see plugin use by distribution meaning you can see which threads are being taken up by specific plugs, now a DAW should automatically thread per channel (last time I checked) but for some reason it doesn't always work that way. If I run multiple instances of Kontakt and put Ozone on the master then it bricks it irrelevant of whether I'd use RME, MOTU or MH.. If I look at system monitor it'll still show that I'm using 15-20% of my CPU but because one of the threads are maxed out we're done, it'll pop / crackle / stall etc.. But If I use 200+ Logic plugs distributed across many channels for example I don't have issues. I'm not familiar with Reaper so is there a way to analyse this stuff? I’ll click around tonight. I think there is something
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2022 20:08:07 GMT -6
The usb drivers also sometimes give out on Mac before Windows despite core audio. Like they’re more plug and play but they’ll start stuttering without throttling before. And again turn off anticipative processing in reaper and the interfaces just don’t play back at all with over a certain amount of delay compensation. I don’t want to find out what would happen to them in Slow Tools. This is at max buffer, max fan speed, cool temps on my i9-12000 desktop.The Apogee and MOTU usb drivers just stutter and won’t play back without anticipative fx processing AT ALL. IME MOTU and USB don't really mix but the bigger issue could be the plugs. In Logic there's a way to see plugin use by distribution meaning you can see which threads are being taken up by specific plugs, now a DAW should automatically thread per channel (last time I checked) but for some reason it doesn't always work that way. If I run multiple instances of Kontakt and put Ozone on the master then it bricks it irrelevant of whether I'd use RME, MOTU or MH.. If I look at system monitor it'll still show that I'm using 15-20% of my CPU but because one of the threads are maxed out we're done, it'll pop / crackle / stall etc.. But If I use 200+ Logic plugs distributed across many channels for example I don't have issues. I'm not familiar with Reaper so is there a way to analyse this stuff? Okay so two of my perfomance cores are getting 60-70% but sometimes two of the other cores get >90% thus crashing it. There needs to be way to spread the load around ugh. i.imgur.com/XEKrIJz.png
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Feb 15, 2022 20:58:16 GMT -6
I want to commend you on your honesty and humbleness on this post Cris... We trod a similar path cheers Wiz If there's anything I have to offer this group or any other audio engineer out there it's a truthful look at my mistakes. I hope that folks can learn from them as I have learned from them. Sometimes it's better to learn from mistakes of others than to be taught someone's idea of what is correct. I don't know your story, but I'd add that sometimes people have to have their own journeys, regardless of the various points in front of them. Not discounting your opinion at all, just adding another.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2022 3:19:05 GMT -6
IME MOTU and USB don't really mix but the bigger issue could be the plugs. In Logic there's a way to see plugin use by distribution meaning you can see which threads are being taken up by specific plugs, now a DAW should automatically thread per channel (last time I checked) but for some reason it doesn't always work that way. If I run multiple instances of Kontakt and put Ozone on the master then it bricks it irrelevant of whether I'd use RME, MOTU or MH.. If I look at system monitor it'll still show that I'm using 15-20% of my CPU but because one of the threads are maxed out we're done, it'll pop / crackle / stall etc.. But If I use 200+ Logic plugs distributed across many channels for example I don't have issues. I'm not familiar with Reaper so is there a way to analyse this stuff? Okay so two of my perfomance cores are getting 60-70% but sometimes two of the other cores get >90% thus crashing it. There needs to be way to spread the load around ugh. Well, on the positive side at least you know it isn't your interfaces. Apparently from a quick search Reaper has a CPU meter tool, use it. You need to see how the DAW is threading and disable / enable plugs to see their impact upon your system. Also I spotted a thread that mentioned Reaper wasn't using all cores when doing "live FX" or something. "In Preferences->Audio->Buffering, tick the "Allow live FX multiprocessing on" and choose how many cores you want." Not sure if you're using VSTi's but it's worth going through the DAW's settings and messing about anyway. In Logic there's distribution settings for multi-threading, whilst automatic seems to work the best at least I know that it works the best. It could be that one or more of the plugs you're using are simply inefficient, no point in speculating though you should ideally test all of this out.. I bet the UA crowd are looking at this thinking, yeah Shadow that's why I still use DSP..
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