|
Post by Ward on Feb 20, 2022 14:10:18 GMT -6
Tangential question: what’s the “official” term for the opposite of mid-forward? "official" term? I usually use "young", in contrast to my being "mid forward" now. Chris You're in your upper mid forwards now?
|
|
|
Post by chessparov on Feb 20, 2022 17:03:25 GMT -6
And now above the 60th Parallel too! Chris
|
|
|
Post by crillemannen on Feb 21, 2022 7:21:26 GMT -6
I've tried quite a few high-end boutique mics since I started my YT channel.
All the 251s I've tried has had flaws. The Upton has some lowmid issues, I've tried two different ones. Still very nice quality ofc.
Bock251 was nice but has almost a U47 proximity thing going on. Nice if that's what you'd like.
There is both the Heiserman 251 coming up which I'd love to demo and also a brand new GAP Elam251 clone. I've tried the GAP prototype and it was truly beautiful.
Chandler Redd. Very nice. Super midforward on the verge of being to bright but also has a nice lowmid neumann-esque quality.
The best bright modern mic I've tried so far is the GAP 8000. Smoother then the original but still very bright and open. Quite the achievement sound wise.
The thing is that if you're going the super bright modern route I can't stop thinking that you'd want something opposite too. Like a u47 style mic to compliment the mic locker.
|
|
wave
Full Member
Posts: 46
|
Post by wave on Feb 21, 2022 18:22:24 GMT -6
Crillemannen, Your comment is interesting to me, about the GAP 251. While I didn't think it sounded bad or anything (actually quite good) it def wasn't in the 251 area for me. I had a client who I built a custom 251 for and he got one of those for me to gut... The tube used was a 5840 and the TX they put in is a Chinese Bv.08 style unit. Great match for the tube but a vintage T14/1 equipped 251 has way less low end then that mic was making. Also in a 251E, the capsule and grid resistor make a ~62Hz hi pass... again for me, not a bunch of bottom coming off them. Just my 2cents.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2022 19:22:32 GMT -6
I've tried quite a few high-end boutique mics since I started my YT channel. All the 251s I've tried has had flaws. The Upton has some lowmid issues, I've tried two different ones. Still very nice quality ofc. Bock251 was nice but has almost a U47 proximity thing going on. Nice if that's what you'd like. There is both the Heiserman 251 coming up which I'd love to demo and also a brand new GAP Elam251 clone. I've tried the GAP prototype and it was truly beautiful. Chandler Redd. Very nice. Super midforward on the verge of being to bright but also has a nice lowmid neumann-esque quality. The best bright modern mic I've tried so far is the GAP 8000. Smoother then the original but still very bright and open. Quite the achievement sound wise. The thing is that if you're going the super bright modern route I can't stop thinking that you'd want something opposite too. Like a u47 style mic to compliment the mic locker. Never was keen on the U47 over the 67 which I already own. In terms of 251 style mic's I've only ever acquired a Tele and ISK, the latter doesn't sound much like a Tele (going by clips because memory has faded) but it's a good mic nevertheless. I actually recently picked up the WA-8000 which for better or worse sounds quite similar to a C800, close enough that in a mix I wouldn't complain about the differences. Mid forward doesn't generally work on my voice, never got along with U87 because of that.. I've got plenty of mic's, just looking for one to rule them all on vox. As said I'm going to rent a Tele ELAM, despite having one before it was over decade ago at this point so I can't really remember what it sounded like on my voice. I'll be keeping my ears open for the Heiserman..
|
|
|
Post by crillemannen on Feb 21, 2022 19:29:26 GMT -6
Crillemannen, Your comment is interesting to me, about the GAP 251. While I didn't think it sounded bad or anything (actually quite good) it def wasn't in the 251 area for me. I had a client who I built a custom 251 for and he got one of those for me to gut... The tube used was a 5840 and the TX they put in is a Chinese Bv.08 style unit. Great match for the tube but a vintage T14/1 equipped 251 has way less low end then that mic was making. Also in a 251E, the capsule and grid resistor make a ~62Hz hi pass... again for me, not a bunch of bottom coming off them. Just my 2cents. There is a new GAP 251 coming with the swivel and all. I compared it to an original vintage 251. The looks except the GAP logo is 1:1 they even have the plastic protection inside. And it sounded extremely good. A different level then their mid priced "already on the market" 251. Which is quite nice, especially the price point. Sorry for the confusion ✌️
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2022 5:27:22 GMT -6
Anyway, I've sort of narrowed my list of stuff to try.. The Heiserman 251 if I can get a demo / hold of one, the Tele ELA M 251E and the UA (or Bock) 167. I know the Bock is the odd one out but it does have that RMS269C quality and that's the version of the 67 that suits me the best. Also I can make some serious profit selling my vintage 67 whereas with the 251 being a different flavour I'd probably want to keep both.
I dunno what it is about Neumann / Gefell, besides the TLM style stuff which is either hit or miss for me (TLM 170R is a great) there's not a single mic they make that I don't like. However I always seem to find something subjectively better.. I suppose it's just a side effect of too many good mic's being available at most price ranges.
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,012
|
Post by ericn on Feb 22, 2022 11:01:54 GMT -6
Anyway, I've sort of narrowed my list of stuff to try.. The Heiserman 251 if I can get a demo / hold of one, the Tele ELA M 251E and the UA (or Bock) 167. I know the Bock is the odd one out but it does have that RMS269C quality and that's the version of the 67 that suits me the best. Also I can make some serious profit selling my vintage 67 whereas with the 251 being a different flavour I'd probably want to keep both. I dunno what it is about Neumann / Gefell, besides the TLM style stuff which is either hit or miss for me (TLM 170R is a great) there's not a single mic they make that I don't like. However I always seem to find something subjectively better.. I suppose it's just a side effect of too many good mic's being available at most price ranges. See that’s me and U87’s, I can put one up and it doesn’t sound bad, I just can always instantly think of something that will work better. I guess in some ways it is my magic mic, it’s magic is helping me find perfection.
|
|
|
Post by chessparov on Feb 22, 2022 19:53:10 GMT -6
Anyway, I've sort of narrowed my list of stuff to try.. The Heiserman 251 if I can get a demo / hold of one, the Tele ELA M 251E and the UA (or Bock) 167. I know the Bock is the odd one out but it does have that RMS269C quality and that's the version of the 67 that suits me the best. Also I can make some serious profit selling my vintage 67 whereas with the 251 being a different flavour I'd probably want to keep both. I dunno what it is about Neumann / Gefell, besides the TLM style stuff which is either hit or miss for me (TLM 170R is a great) there's not a single mic they make that I don't like. However I always seem to find something subjectively better.. I suppose it's just a side effect of too many good mic's being available at most price ranges. IMHO keep your Vintage 67. (I really like Vintage 87's too) Chris
|
|
|
Post by drsax on Feb 23, 2022 1:37:13 GMT -6
Chandler REDD Mic fills this space in my studio. Lots of high end mics here, but the REDD sees the most use by far.
|
|
|
Post by Vincent R. on Feb 23, 2022 7:22:34 GMT -6
For me it's my MK U67. It just works on everything. I love my FleA 49 and it is "MY MIC," but if I'm working with other singers and we are in a hurry, the MK U67 goes up and I hit record. Killer Sax mic too.
|
|
|
Post by professorplum on Feb 23, 2022 15:12:24 GMT -6
I rarely see any discussion of Wunder mics. I've been curious about their CM67S and CM7 for a while now but never heard them. Any reviews on how they stack up against the other 67 players these days?
|
|
|
Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 23, 2022 22:41:50 GMT -6
The Chandler Redd can rightfully be called a flagship mic. I like it better than a dozen Neumann's I've heard. Of course there's always a few Neumann's that seem unbeatable, but you'd have to have a whole bunch of them to compare to find "the one". The Chandler is right there now. It has a high end in the same class as a 251.
|
|
|
Post by Ward on Feb 24, 2022 7:04:01 GMT -6
The Chandler Redd can rightfully be called a flagship mic. I like it better than a dozen Neumann's I've heard. Of course there's always a few Neumann's that seem unbeatable, but you'd have to have a whole bunch of them to compare to find "the one". The Chandler is right there now. It has a high end in the same class as a 251. That is so true. My rankings: 1. 251 2. U47/H47 3. U67 4. REDD 5. C12
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2022 10:06:41 GMT -6
The Chandler Redd can rightfully be called a flagship mic. I like it better than a dozen Neumann's I've heard. Of course there's always a few Neumann's that seem unbeatable, but you'd have to have a whole bunch of them to compare to find "the one". The Chandler is right there now. It has a high end in the same class as a 251. Like any mic it has to be right for the voice in front of it. The words "mid forward" struck the REDD from my list almost instantly, fairly neutral yet slightly flattering works best with me. There's some parts of my voice that'll either push a shrill mic over the top or strip my voice of power. I have to be careful with certain dynamics like the SM58, fine when I'm singing live because I tend to just let my diaphragm push full range and sacrifice a bit of accuracy. In the studio if I allow my vocals to run "free" I can push most classic condenser mic's or variations of into distortion without too much effort so I tend to be a lot more controlled. Although that requires a mic able to accurately reflect nuance.. Honestly you'd be surprised how loud I can get unfiltered.. Anyway in the studio I suit 251, 170 or DPA style mic's or modern takes on the 67, most others are just passable.
|
|
|
Post by crillemannen on Feb 24, 2022 10:18:04 GMT -6
The Chandler Redd can rightfully be called a flagship mic. I like it better than a dozen Neumann's I've heard. Of course there's always a few Neumann's that seem unbeatable, but you'd have to have a whole bunch of them to compare to find "the one". The Chandler is right there now. It has a high end in the same class as a 251. Like any mic it has to be right for the voice in front of it. The words "mid forward" struck the REDD from my list almost instantly, fairly neutral yet slightly flattering works best with me. There's some parts of my voice that'll either push a shrill mic over the top or strip my voice of power. I have to be careful with certain dynamics like the SM58, fine when I'm singing live because I tend to just let my diaphragm push full range and sacrifice a bit of accuracy. In the studio if I allow my vocals to run "free" I can push most classic condenser mic's or variations of into distortion without too much effort so I tend to be a lot more controlled. Although that requires a mic able to accurately reflect nuance.. Honestly you'd be surprised how loud I can get unfiltered.. Anyway in the studio I suit 251, 170 or DPA style mic's or modern takes on the 67, most others are just passable. I was about to write off the Redd when it was released. The examples where all to bright. I did try it on my YT channel and I thought it was extremely nice. Sure it is very bright, but it has some very nice Neumann-esque lowmids. It is very expensive though.
|
|
|
Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 24, 2022 10:28:27 GMT -6
Wouldn't argue with those rankings Ward. It's a little different for me because I choose for my voice only. I've used a U47, U67, Redd and C12, but haven't had the pleasure of a 251 yet.
So far, a vintage 67 worked the best for my voice. I would have loved to compare that mic with the Chandler in the same studio, but I didn't have the Redd available when I did a shootout between the vintage 47, 67, C12, M49, Blackspade UM-17R and the Soyuz 0-19 FET at the Barbershop studios with our own Jeremy Gillespie.
The Soyuz was my 3rd choice in that comparison after the 67 and 47. Since that was FET and the others were tube mics, it made me wonder what I might have thought of the Soyuz 0-17 with the tube since the 0-19 FET was that good.
I had the Chandler at my place for just one week. The one quality that is difficult to describe or explain is that some mics make you sing better. Of all the mics mentioned, I sang best through the Chandler. Maybe not having the wires into a preamp and out made the difference, I don't know. The thing was, the Chandler was the most transparent and my pitch improved because of that.
|
|
|
Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 24, 2022 10:32:30 GMT -6
Shadow, your description made me think you should try the Soyuz 0-17, it's a smoothie for sure.
|
|
|
Post by mcirish on Feb 24, 2022 10:38:09 GMT -6
I rarely see any discussion of Wunder mics. I've been curious about their CM67S and CM7 for a while now but never heard them. Any reviews on how they stack up against the other 67 players these days? I have a Wunder CM7GTS-M7. That's the one with a EF800 tube and the "Suprema" electronics upgrade. I've shot it out with a vintage U48 and a multitude of other mics. It's good. The U48 had a bit more air to it but nothing that a dB or so of 10k wouldn't fix. Mine has a Thiersch Red M7 (mylar) in it. A number of years ago, I had to send it back to Mike because there was an odd noise problem. After he swapped everything, he eventually found it was the capsule. It took a long while to get it back and it was an expensive repair. It's never sounded quite the same. I'm sure the capsule swap just threw off my ears as I was so used to the original. I'm not sure what capsule was in the U48. It may have been a K47, which would account for the slight sound difference. Anyway, the CM7GTS-M7 works well for me (though a little different than when it had the earlier capsule) and I'm sure it isn't keeping me from great recordings. I also modified a Miktek CV4 and replaced the (horrible IMO) capsule with a Beesneez K7. That is one fine sounding mic and is my favorite on a specific alto voice. It has most of the U47 bigness and is a great second main vocal mic option for me. I've often thought about picking up another CV4 and putting in one of Tim's capsules. That would give me another flavor too. I'd love to get my hands on a good U67 to see what I thought. I had one in the studio a couple months ago and was really disappointed in it. So much so, that I think it may have had issues. It was very thin sounding and boring. Comparing it to my other options, it went back in the case within a few minutes. I did have a Bock 251 for a while and it sounded great too. I was surprised by how U47ish that sounded in the low mids. I expected the 251 to be a little lowend light but it was very nice.
|
|
|
Post by Vincent R. on Feb 24, 2022 10:44:34 GMT -6
The Chandler Redd can rightfully be called a flagship mic. I like it better than a dozen Neumann's I've heard. Of course there's always a few Neumann's that seem unbeatable, but you'd have to have a whole bunch of them to compare to find "the one". The Chandler is right there now. It has a high end in the same class as a 251. Like any mic it has to be right for the voice in front of it. The words "mid forward" struck the REDD from my list almost instantly, fairly neutral yet slightly flattering works best with me. There's some parts of my voice that'll either push a shrill mic over the top or strip my voice of power. I have to be careful with certain dynamics like the SM58, fine when I'm singing live because I tend to just let my diaphragm push full range and sacrifice a bit of accuracy. In the studio if I allow my vocals to run "free" I can push most classic condenser mic's or variations of into distortion without too much effort so I tend to be a lot more controlled. Although that requires a mic able to accurately reflect nuance.. Honestly you'd be surprised how loud I can get unfiltered.. Anyway in the studio I suit 251, 170 or DPA style mic's or modern takes on the 67, most others are just passable. For me the REDD felt too thick and too open all at the same time for Emily and I. Yet, I've heard so many clips here of it sounding incredible on people. So I get the hesitation there.
|
|
|
Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 24, 2022 10:48:20 GMT -6
I think the Thiersch capsules are not very consistent, I've had three. The 251's I've heard didn't seem light in the low end, they were very warm, it was the smooth highs that made it special. The Bock 251 was my second choice in a twenty new mic shootout. My first choice was the $9,000 Telefunken U47.
I'd say that the 67 is the "biggest" sounding mic ever. Somehow it sounds wider without losing focus. I had a Bock 195 mic that sounded wide, but it felt unfocused, more like an omni setting, even though it was set to cardioid.
If you're interested in the Chandler, I did this a couple years back. For demo purposes I used no compression, no de-essing, just a little reverb. Jump to 7:40. I did use ARIA online mastering on the first track, it made the sound more sibilant than it actually was.
|
|
|
Post by Bat Lanyard on Feb 24, 2022 12:53:17 GMT -6
I rarely see any discussion of Wunder mics. I've been curious about their CM67S and CM7 for a while now but never heard them. Any reviews on how they stack up against the other 67 players these days? Not 67's, but I loaned my Heiserman H47t a few months ago to my buddy who's got the Wunder (not sure the exact model/capsule) as well as a vintage Tele that I've sung through many, many times and sounds amazing. He shot the three out while working on a soul-type singer. The consensus was that all three sounded amazing in their own way, the H47t (H47 capsule) being a hair brighter than the vintage but still awesome. Wunder was somewhere between the two he felt, not in a good or bad way, just different.
|
|
|
Post by chessparov on Feb 24, 2022 13:10:23 GMT -6
Honorable mention... C37a and Tonelux JC37. Chris
|
|
|
Post by Bat Lanyard on Feb 24, 2022 13:23:54 GMT -6
I think the Thiersch capsules are not very consistent, I've had three. The 251's I've heard didn't seem light in the low end, they were very warm, it was the smooth highs that made it special. The Bock 251 was my second choice in a twenty new mic shootout. My first choice was the $9,000 Telefunken U47. I'd say that the 67 is the "biggest" sounding mic ever. Somehow it sounds wider without losing focus. I had a Bock 195 mic that sounded wide, but it felt unfocused, more like an omni setting, even though it was set to cardioid. If you're interested in the Chandler, I did this a couple years back. For demo purposes I used no compression, no de-essing, just a little reverb. Jump to 7:40. I did use ARIA online mastering on the first track, it made the sound more sibilant than it actually was. Nice video Martin John Butler and sounds great on your voice. I need to try the REDD out at some point. Thanks for posting!
|
|
|
Post by professorplum on Feb 24, 2022 15:52:02 GMT -6
I rarely see any discussion of Wunder mics. I've been curious about their CM67S and CM7 for a while now but never heard them. Any reviews on how they stack up against the other 67 players these days? I have a Wunder CM7GTS-M7. That's the one with a EF800 tube and the "Suprema" electronics upgrade. I've shot it out with a vintage U48 and a multitude of other mics. It's good. The U48 had a bit more air to it but nothing that a dB or so of 10k wouldn't fix. Mine has a Thiersch Red M7 (mylar) in it. A number of years ago, I had to send it back to Mike because there was an odd noise problem. After he swapped everything, he eventually found it was the capsule. It took a long while to get it back and it was an expensive repair. It's never sounded quite the same. I'm sure the capsule swap just threw off my ears as I was so used to the original. I'm not sure what capsule was in the U48. It may have been a K47, which would account for the slight sound difference. Anyway, the CM7GTS-M7 works well for me (though a little different than when it had the earlier capsule) and I'm sure it isn't keeping me from great recordings. I also modified a Miktek CV4 and replaced the (horrible IMO) capsule with a Beesneez K7. That is one fine sounding mic and is my favorite on a specific alto voice. It has most of the U47 bigness and is a great second main vocal mic option for me. I've often thought about picking up another CV4 and putting in one of Tim's capsules. That would give me another flavor too. I'd love to get my hands on a good U67 to see what I thought. I had one in the studio a couple months ago and was really disappointed in it. So much so, that I think it may have had issues. It was very thin sounding and boring. Comparing it to my other options, it went back in the case within a few minutes. I did have a Bock 251 for a while and it sounded great too. I was surprised by how U47ish that sounded in the low mids. I expected the 251 to be a little lowend light but it was very nice. Thanks for the info. Ya I've been intrigued by the Miktek CV4 with the Shannon Rhodes mod. Tim Campbell only makes a C12 style capsule right?
|
|