Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2020 9:06:37 GMT -6
The basic preamp sound categories: Neve 1073, API 312, V72, V76, ISA110, any others? RCA BA-2 (and lots of variation amidst ‘RCA tube pres’) RCA BA-1/11 RCA OP-6 Collins 6Q-1 Gates SA-70/Coil CA-70 Langevin 5116/Collins 356A/GE BA1xx Altec 458A Langevin 5116-B Langevin AM-16 Altec 9470/9475 Could go on, those are probably the big American alternative sounds. Yeah the variety is insane and can often be “cleaner” than API and Neve. There are a lot of guys with their own “special” (95% of the time it sucks and you’ll have to futz around in mixing) guitar or drum tone that they spent a lot of money on, time tuning, and stuck new heads on and they complain when it hits something like current API. I’ve never heard any complaints about good tubes from musicians and crazy audiophiles. “Clean” in quotations because I’ve never heard a 100% transparent pre. That “wire with gain” myth is bullshit.
|
|
|
Post by EmRR on Nov 18, 2020 11:31:14 GMT -6
I’ve never heard any complaints about good tubes from musicians and crazy audiophiles. I'll give a nod to the thought that, for some tastes, some tube stuff is perceived as too slow or soft. Much of that is the transformers, more than the circuits in many cases: the 'classic' Pultec Triad input, very 'milky' and soft sounding, and it defines the Pultec tone in many ways....WAAAYY more than the tube or SS amp. Also used on some SpectraSonics preamps, I think. The 'classic' tube stuff I don't like, I think it's almost always the transformers.
|
|
|
Post by EmRR on Nov 18, 2020 11:34:22 GMT -6
The Neve with 31114's and 31115's I worked on was very thick slow and dark. Very massive and muscular, but tended to feel like treble was missing. Take it to 15ips tape and you were always boosting treble.
|
|
|
Post by Guitar on Nov 18, 2020 11:49:40 GMT -6
What made the 1073 so special? To paraphrase Mr. Rupert Neve, in my own way, "It's those transformers, maaaaaaannnnn..."
Any mic pre I've ever owned with those big ass British style transformers has been undeniably able to smack down any audio and serve it up fresh.
Also I'd like to give a mention to the Mackie preamps since those haven't been called out by name yet. In some electronic circles they are legitimate options.
|
|
|
Post by drumrec on Nov 18, 2020 12:25:32 GMT -6
The Neve with 31114's and 31115's I worked on was very thick slow and dark. Very massive and muscular, but tended to feel like treble was missing. Take it to 15ips tape and you were always boosting treble. Oh, that's what I like so much about them. I have 2 pieces 33115 pre / eq (similar to 31115) which I always use for overhead. My big wish is one beautiful day to have a sidecar with Neve 33115
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2020 12:57:34 GMT -6
I’ve never heard any complaints about good tubes from musicians and crazy audiophiles. I'll give a nod to the thought that, for some tastes, some tube stuff is perceived as too slow or soft. Much of that is the transformers, more than the circuits in many cases: the 'classic' Pultec Triad input, very 'milky' and soft sounding, and it defines the Pultec tone in many ways....WAAAYY more than the tube or SS amp. Also used on some SpectraSonics preamps, I think. The 'classic' tube stuff I don't like, I think it's almost always the transformers. Agreed. lot of transformers just don’t sound good. Still don’t. Ever seen measurements of a Hammond? They sound like that. Unfortunately, they’re the first thing that gets cheaped out.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2020 13:00:06 GMT -6
What made the 1073 so special? To paraphrase Mr. Rupert Neve, in my own way, "It's those transformers, maaaaaaannnnn..." Any mic pre I've ever owned with those big ass British style transformers has been undeniably able to smack down any audio and serve it up fresh. Also I'd like to give a mention to the Mackie preamps since those haven't been called out by name yet. In some electronic circles they are legitimate options. The old Mackie and Tascam preamps do some cool stuff when pushed slightly. Too bad they’ve been cheaped out too.
|
|
|
Post by cowboycoalminer on Nov 18, 2020 13:19:36 GMT -6
Better still is a 1084 with its three high frequency options of 10, 12 and 16khz. Although the class A/B Neves sound subjectively more hi-fi/present than the Class A Neves. I agree with this. More Hi/fi yes and pleasing to the ear. But Class A just demands to be listened to, catches our attention and won't let go. There has to be some kind of psychosomatic thing going on with the 1073.
|
|
|
Post by EmRR on Nov 18, 2020 13:25:47 GMT -6
Ever seen measurements of a Hammond? They sound like that. Hmm, 800 and 850 series Hammonds look great, maybe more importantly they spec for matching circuits, so you can build retro style ancient circuits with more similar results than you'll get out of most modern things. Old school small wire with more turns, higher inductance. Expensive. If it sounds like what ya want.....
|
|
|
Post by cowboycoalminer on Nov 18, 2020 13:26:37 GMT -6
The pres at Abbey Road must deserve a mention I would think. I've used the Trident series 80 many times, did my first album on the original classic API board and did a quick mic test on a restored Neve console. All were superb. I personally never thought the Trident 80 was all that special. The API was great, but I find they can sometimes irritate a little if you push it too hard on a vocal. Now, if API's were good enough for Tom Petty, well, they're good enough for me, but.. the best sound I've ever heard was in fact through one of those giant Neve consoles. I was at a mixing session of a James Blunt session and a Neo session. They'd done 5 tracks each live for a broadcast. I'd also heard Brad Paisley's recordings at the same studio, all done on a Neve. So, I sure wouldn't mind one of those little API boards, or an SSL, but I would have to say the big Neve console was the most impressive to me. I have the Stam SA73. It's the little 1/2 rack one channel 1073 style pre. It's wonderful on guitars and bass, but for vocals, my Dizengoff D4 ( Abbey Road clone) just sings a bit more. I would love to have one of the updated 2 channel Stam units. I'm also interested in the Heritage Audio Elite series. So far, I've heard a few Neve clones, but so far, only the Stam got me in the zone. I'd love to compare it to an original Neve one day, just to see how close it really is. Great post, Martin John Butler ! The Dizengoff is a lot better than many people realized at the time. I was lucky to grab one as well as the DA2 (RCA clone) - winetree got a pair of each! Some units were duds, but never heard a complaint from you or Robert, and mine are perfect. Nice addition to the thoughts! Hope cowboycoalminer doesn't mind the roller-coaster we're on in his thread. :-) Never. Just along for the ride, broheim. Hands in the air.
|
|
|
Post by kcatthedog on Nov 18, 2020 15:21:15 GMT -6
Miss my d4s here!
|
|
|
Post by Guitar on Nov 18, 2020 15:44:11 GMT -6
What made the 1073 so special? To paraphrase Mr. Rupert Neve, in my own way, "It's those transformers, maaaaaaannnnn..." Any mic pre I've ever owned with those big ass British style transformers has been undeniably able to smack down any audio and serve it up fresh. Also I'd like to give a mention to the Mackie preamps since those haven't been called out by name yet. In some electronic circles they are legitimate options. The old Mackie and Tascam preamps do some cool stuff when pushed slightly. Too bad they’ve been cheaped out too. The new Onyx ones are quite good in the VLZ 4 lineup. They invented some new IC or something with better specs.
|
|
|
Post by chessparov on Nov 18, 2020 18:46:32 GMT -6
I’ve never heard any complaints about good tubes from musicians and crazy audiophiles. I'll give a nod to the thought that, for some tastes, some tube stuff is perceived as too slow or soft. Much of that is the transformers, more than the circuits in many cases: the 'classic' Pultec Triad input, very 'milky' and soft sounding, and it defines the Pultec tone in many ways....WAAAYY more than the tube or SS amp. Also used on some SpectraSonics preamps, I think. The 'classic' tube stuff I don't like, I think it's almost always the transformers. I don't have near the same level of understanding as you, or others on this thread but... My limited experience, points to preferring Transformers, on both microphones and Pre's. Guess I like all that "Mojo talk". Hey, it's a "Game Changer". P.S. I actually like the Onyx Pre too.
|
|
|
Post by EmRR on Nov 18, 2020 19:27:53 GMT -6
Oh yeah, I'm all in for transformers, most would say I have a problem. There's plenty of 'highly desirable' vintage preamps that have transformers I just don't prefer over others. YMMV.
|
|
|
Post by Vincent R. on Nov 18, 2020 22:14:36 GMT -6
It took me a little while. I tried API styled preamps, ssl, various tube preamps, but I kept coming back to Neve. I discovered just how many of my favorite records were tracked on a Neve console so I took a plunge. First came my Dan Alexander reracked 1272. Then I sold my Tab Funkenwerk V78M and Demeter VTMP to fund an AMS Neve 1073 DPX. All I have right now are Neve styled preamps. Hoping to get others down the road. I get the vibe I want right in tracking.
Now mixing is another story. I keep reaching for the SSL stuff. Lol.
|
|
|
Post by mrholmes on Nov 19, 2020 9:05:46 GMT -6
to Neve. Something about the 1073 sound that is what music should sound like. Not saying that other variants can't be useful, (they can) but if I only had one sound to record music with, it would definitely be the 1073. I like other variations of Neve tones as well but the 1073 is king IMO. Any thoughts?
I am not a pro AE but pros tell me that I have good senses....?
Isn't that based on taste and genre? I like my 1073 too, it's a great vintage clone special on my vocals.
For a more modern crisp sound I would always prefer the preamps of my Delta 200. They are the surprise of the year 2020 for me:
CLEAN / CRISP / WIDE / OPEN.
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,961
|
Post by ericn on Nov 19, 2020 10:28:08 GMT -6
Oh yeah, I'm all in for transformers, most would say I have a problem. There's plenty of 'highly desirable' vintage preamps that have transformers I just don't prefer over others. YMMV. You transformers, why I have never heard such things😁
|
|
|
Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 19, 2020 12:09:26 GMT -6
Isn't transformers a movie with crazy robot cars, one hot mess babe and a different leading man every sequel?
|
|
|
Post by rowmat on Nov 19, 2020 13:26:07 GMT -6
Oh yeah, I'm all in for transformers, most would say I have a problem. There's plenty of 'highly desirable' vintage preamps that have transformers I just don't prefer over others. YMMV. As far as transformer solid state preamps are concerned give me a Twin Servo over a Neve any day. Just the right balance of transformer iron mixed with clarity. Not as thick as a Neve and not as sterile as a Millenia. Far more usable on more sources. For instance I can’t see why most would want to use a Class A Neve on acoustic recordings unless you wanted a specific sound. Same with anything that required the transients being preserved.
|
|
|
Post by rowmat on Nov 19, 2020 13:44:05 GMT -6
The Neve with 31114's and 31115's I worked on was very thick slow and dark. Very massive and muscular, but tended to feel like treble was missing. Take it to 15ips tape and you were always boosting treble. Are these Class AB as in the 33114 and 33115? If so I would suggest the console either required recapping of maybe the modules were incorrectly loaded. My Class AB Neve 33114’s and 33115’s are definitely more present than the Class A versions and have less heft in the low end.
|
|
|
Post by EmRR on Nov 19, 2020 14:06:54 GMT -6
The Neve with 31114's and 31115's I worked on was very thick slow and dark. Very massive and muscular, but tended to feel like treble was missing. Take it to 15ips tape and you were always boosting treble. Are these Class AB as in the 33114 and 33115? If so I would suggest the console either required recapping of maybe the modules were incorrectly loaded. My Class AB Neve 33114’s and 33115’s are definitely more present than the Class A versions and have less heft in the low end. Yes, AB and undoubtedly needed a recap. It came straight from the BBC and was installed by a Neve specialist (Fred Hill) with no overhaul in 1993. The Pavement album 'Brighten The Corners' (serious irony there) is that console in that install (house) a few years after I drove it most frequently. I imagine it was the JH-24 at 30ips no NR. I feel like I hear the dbx 162 on the mix also, in places.
|
|
|
Post by bluegrassdan on Nov 20, 2020 0:41:38 GMT -6
Echo's is a Neve 8068. I asked Geoff Tanner about why it sounded mushy and lo-fi. He's never worked on it, but he had a few ideas ranging from caps to buss things....all above my knowledge grade.
You just never know how places are wired and maintained. Could be something simple like an impedance mismatch somewhere.
At any rate, if we work over there again I won't be using the console. We'll bring our own if we need to.
I've built 1073 clones and have liked them. We have a Vintech at school. Sampled original 1073s at Sony in Nashville that sounded magnificant.
|
|
|
Post by spindrift on Nov 20, 2020 1:09:08 GMT -6
I love and have actively sought out a little squad of 1066s with the round can input transformers. Dripping with vibe. They’re just a little earlier than the 1073 but very similar except for the input transformer and the EQ section is a touch different. If I need to give something weight....that’s what I reach for. I’m also digging tube pres for acoustic instruments and Dan’s sounds amazing and is often my first call. Incidentally, the Vintech X81 is a very favored vocal tracking preamp here.
|
|
|
Post by adamjbrass on Nov 20, 2020 7:04:39 GMT -6
I only really love them on electric guitars with a royer 121.
I know. That is very specific. But it’s the only time my ears perk up to it.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2020 9:32:30 GMT -6
Yes, I can hear the AB 53 series sound on 'Brighton The Corners'. I own and use a sidecar all the time,
they sound different (smaller / brighter), to me when the 33xx modules are taken out of the console and racked.
|
|