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Post by drbill on Sept 22, 2019 21:36:36 GMT -6
ITB summing is broken?
Oh no!!
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Post by mrholmes on Sept 23, 2019 1:58:54 GMT -6
I think there is no dilemma in 2019. If money is tight you can have great sound cherry picking hardware that was 1.5 to 2.0k 20 years ago. Often you get them in new or mind condition for 200 to 300 bucks. I named often the overlooked VLA2 drbill also pointed many many times to great sounding cheap used compressors. Everything Tony Larkin did was great but has been bashed like crazy for reasons I never understood. Tony went bankrupt because of stupid kids on GS. I am at a point picking best of both worlds and I am sure this is the future. Otherwise ideas like the Silver Bullet won't sell great. It's still about to knock out songs. Sometimes it's time to be happy with the gear I have. That's at least what I learned late. The internet is great in creating needs I didn't had two weeks ago.
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Post by Chad on Sept 23, 2019 9:43:42 GMT -6
That makes me wonder why Pro Tools and Apple haven’t copied their summing “solution”. Martin, It was my understanding (many years ago when I researched Mixbus) that Harrison's solution came from their multi-decades of console building. 1) They built their big 70's console (responsible for MJ's Thriller, Queen, etc.) 2) Then, in the 90's (I think) they started making digital consoles and created software algorithms that gave their digital consoles a similar "sound" to their 70's/80's analogue desks. 3) Then... Since those algos were software, they dreamed up Harrison Mixbus. That's my fairly fuzzy memory of this from years back. I probably missed or mixed up details, but that's what's still in my head. ;-) Chad
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Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 23, 2019 9:50:28 GMT -6
Thanks Chad. I would expect engineers and techs at Avid and Apple would be aware of competing solutions, UAD too. If the Mixbus has a better sounding summing system, I would expect those companies would be interested in equaling or improving on that. Is it they think their process works fine, so why bother?
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Post by notneeson on Sept 23, 2019 10:12:46 GMT -6
I believe that Mix bus has built in saturation. At that point, there's not really any comparison to be made, aside from anecdotal subjective preference. (Which is part of the job, to be sure).
Avid added Heat as an an add on to their mixer, BTW. Heat is kinda cool (I mean warm) but I've found a little goes a very long way.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 23, 2019 10:31:28 GMT -6
Interesting. I wonder if there's a plug-in that if added to a 2 Bus would give you the same kind of effect the Mixbus does. I've got a dozen saturation plugs, even Apple's compressors have that built in. I guess it would take someone very familiar with most of the available options available to pick one that would sound the way the Mixbus does.
I find the idea of an improved 2 Bus digital summing attractive, but I don't want to learn a new DAW. Logic's hard enough as it is.
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Post by Chad on Sept 23, 2019 10:55:34 GMT -6
Thanks Chad. I would expect engineers and techs at Avid and Apple would be aware of competing solutions, UAD too. If the Mixbus has a better sounding summing system, I would expect those companies would be interested in equaling or improving on that. Is it they think their process works fine, so why bother? Martin, I think Avid and Apple might be simply going after the "low hanging fruit" as customers. (Totally guessing on this one, as... I don't use Avid or Apple Logic.) I do think that Presonus Studio One is ahead of the others (excluding Mixbus) with their console shaper tool (which I have toyed with but not much).
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Post by notneeson on Sept 23, 2019 11:04:25 GMT -6
Interesting. I wonder if there's a plug-in that if added to a 2 Bus would give you the same kind of effect the Mixbus does. I've got a dozen saturation plugs, even Apple's compressors have that built in. I guess it would take someone very familiar with most of the available options available to pick one that would sound the way the Mixbus does. I find the idea of an improved 2 Bus digital summing attractive, but I don't want to learn a new DAW. Logic's hard enough as it is. I find the idea that Logic's summing is "flawed" very unlikely. That has nothing to do with whether or not Mix Bus sounds good, I'm sure it does. So, how can MJB get the sound he wants out of logic? There are loads of popular saturation plugins. Personally I found using transformer balanced discrete preamps on all tracks, mixing hybrid with real outboard, especially on the master bus, and being very judicious with plugins is the best way for me to get where I need to go. There was a time when I used a subtle tape emulation on every channel, and when I go back and listen those mixes sound really good too.
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Post by drbill on Sept 23, 2019 11:49:54 GMT -6
Interesting. I wonder if there's a plug-in that if added to a 2 Bus would give you the same kind of effect the Mixbus does.. Slate has their Virtual Console emulation. I found it smeary, tweaky, and after initial tries with it, I abandoned it. ITB Summing is not broken. It's simple math. Well....simple for programming geeks. Doing something "different" is cool, but doesn't mean what you have traditionally used is "broken". OTB summing is all about the makeup gain, which can simply be applied on the mix buss for 95% of the gain. As a matter of fact, there are some Burl B32 Vancouver files floating around where (among other things - SB) they did 32 wide summing vs. 2 wide into the box, and more people chose the 2 wide over the 32 wide - as long as it was coming thru the same signal path. That's essentially been my experience as well. It's in the makeup gain.
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Post by drbill on Sept 23, 2019 11:52:04 GMT -6
Thanks Chad. I would expect engineers and techs at Avid and Apple would be aware of competing solutions, UAD too. If the Mixbus has a better sounding summing system, I would expect those companies would be interested in equaling or improving on that. Is it they think their process works fine, so why bother? Martin, I think Avid and Apple might be simply going after the "low hanging fruit" as customers. (Totally guessing on this one, as... I don't use Avid or Apple Logic.) . ?? AVID is going after the most high end customers still alive on the planet - the film guys. They still spend mega-bucks on systems. Other solutions are aiming for the low hanging fruit so to speak. You may be right about Apple. But not AVID. They have abandoned their lower end clients.
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Post by Chad on Sept 23, 2019 12:20:10 GMT -6
Martin, I think Avid and Apple might be simply going after the "low hanging fruit" as customers. (Totally guessing on this one, as... I don't use Avid or Apple Logic.) . ?? AVID is going after the most high end customers still alive on the planet - the film guys. They still spend mega-bucks on systems. Other solutions are aiming for the low hanging fruit so to speak. You may be right about Apple. But not AVID. They have abandoned their lower end clients. Yes, I see your point. :-)
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Post by Vincent R. on Sept 23, 2019 12:58:54 GMT -6
Martin have you tried Waves' NLS Plugin? I've been using that for a while I now. I think it's really nice. You get 3 different consoles to choose from (Neve, SSL, EMI) and each console has multiple channels that they have emulated as well. You get the channel plugin and the master buss plugin. It has a bit of mojo. I found it to be much better than the Slate VCC Collection. It might be a nice band-aid until you figure out the mixer you really want that you can afford. I'm really in the same boat as you. I would really love a good console, but most of the price conservative boards are really just that, boards at a price point.
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Post by sirthought on Sept 23, 2019 14:08:50 GMT -6
I've taken to adding some type of small saturation on most channels when mixing to attempt that collective console warmth.
Kazrog True Iron or Sound Toys Decapitator- neither introduces too much saturation if used properly. It add a subtle mojo.
And recently I purchased Wave Factory's Spectre plugin, which looks like an EQ but really doesn't behave like one. It's mostly a saturation enhancement plug that helps you target frequencies, only it listens to the source material and balances a certain level of saturation. There's a lot of different types of saturation too! (tape/tube/diode/etc) Super high quality sound, in my opinion, that I'm actually trying on the mix bus, in place of using certain EQs, to add depth and width. Recommended.
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Post by kcatthedog on Sept 23, 2019 14:21:58 GMT -6
Softtube has its free saturation plug in.
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Post by mrholmes on Sept 23, 2019 15:32:24 GMT -6
Softtube has its free saturation plug in. More Free ones...
Shatterd Glas Audio offers two mic pre simulations which can introduce nice subtle harmonics. Airwindows BussColors4 just WOW 4 more saturation options.
LogicX has a few nice distortion options which sound great on low frequency content.
Many subtle saturation options ITB.
There is no need to buy Waves NLS or SLATE.
I would not be surprised if one of the next major Logic updates would contain tape and desk simulations.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 23, 2019 22:05:37 GMT -6
I've got a bunch of these, but haven't really used them. I'll give them a try. The Waves plugs disappointed me. I have a bundle with 150 plugs, and use maybe 5 occasionally, if that many. Like Dr. Bill, I haven't really found the Slate plugs to be all that great either.
Logic's distortions are quite good, if only you could dial in the amount instead of being stuck with their 3 preset levels.
The UAD ATR-102 is one of the best plugins ever made. It really does it's job beautifully. It actually doesn't sound like tape, but I just like what it does on the 30 ips mastering preset or the Smooth Vocal preset. Strangely, their Oxide tape sim is the only plug-in that fooled my ears once.
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Post by mrholmes on Sept 24, 2019 3:18:23 GMT -6
I've got a bunch of these, but haven't really used them. I'll give them a try. The Waves plugs disappointed me. I have a bundle with 150 plugs, and use maybe 5 occasionally, if that many. Like Dr. Bill, I haven't really found the Slate plugs to be all that great either. Logic's distortions are quite good, if only you could dial in the amount instead of being stuck with their 3 preset levels. The UAD ATR-102 is one of the best plugins ever made. It really does it's job beautifully. It actually doesn't sound like tape, but I just like what it does on the 30 ips mastering preset or the Smooth Vocal preset. Strangely, their Oxide tape sim is the only plug-in that fooled my ears once.
I think most plug in developers overdo it like an FX and this makes an ITB mix harsh and brittle. If you just use small amounts of tape tube and iron saturation the mix gets big wide and open. Logic offers also a plug in with nice solid state artifacts.
There are a just a few good ones which do the trick, its is a shame in 2019.
We had the hint with the Karzog Iron in this thread. I just demoed this one.
WoW!
This thing sounds very nice.
Airwindows Shatterd Glas Audio Logic Stock Karzorg Slate VTC
It gets me a long way ITB doing some fast demos and other stuff people want from me.
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Post by mrholmes on Sept 24, 2019 8:51:37 GMT -6
WTF I had to buy this thing its one of the rare exceptions which do react and sound like hardware WOW....
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Post by notneeson on Sept 24, 2019 10:26:04 GMT -6
I've got a bunch of these, but haven't really used them. I'll give them a try. The Waves plugs disappointed me. I have a bundle with 150 plugs, and use maybe 5 occasionally, if that many. Like Dr. Bill, I haven't really found the Slate plugs to be all that great either. Logic's distortions are quite good, if only you could dial in the amount instead of being stuck with their 3 preset levels. The UAD ATR-102 is one of the best plugins ever made. It really does it's job beautifully. It actually doesn't sound like tape, but I just like what it does on the 30 ips mastering preset or the Smooth Vocal preset. Strangely, their Oxide tape sim is the only plug-in that fooled my ears once. Try developing a simple preset for subtle saturation and rendering it across every track. Can you do that easily with UAD? I've stayed away from their stuff. One of the facets of "glue" afforded by tape machines and/or consoles is that they bring a modicum of homogeneity to the sound of each track. You can experiment with recreating this effect ITB.
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Post by kcatthedog on Sept 24, 2019 12:06:04 GMT -6
UAD Studer is sort of for that: ampex on 2 bus ?
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Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 24, 2019 12:09:15 GMT -6
I'll try UAD's Oxide on tracks via a bus. I never liked their Studer emulation, and Studer was my favorite tape machine.
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Post by notneeson on Sept 24, 2019 14:51:34 GMT -6
UAD Studer is sort of for that: ampex on 2 bus ? The ATR is one of the cleanest sounding tape machines ever made, and largely used for masters. Mike Wells has one with retrofitted tube electronics that is pretty freakin' awesome for mastering. I think Dave Hill from Crane Song was the designer on that. But, in DAW-land there's no reason you couldn't try a two track emulation on all your tracks. If it sounds good it is good!
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Post by drbill on Sept 24, 2019 14:58:14 GMT -6
WTF I had to buy this thing its one of the rare exceptions which do react and sound like hardware WOW....
SKETCHY for me. Makes my system act all crazy. All of their software does. Either they don't like Mac or PT or maybe both.
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Post by mrholmes on Sept 24, 2019 15:57:49 GMT -6
WTF I had to buy this thing its one of the rare exceptions which do react and sound like hardware WOW....
SKETCHY for me. Makes my system act all crazy. All of their software does. Either they don't like Mac or PT or maybe both.
Must be a PT issue. Contact support, its worth the trouble. For a few moments it made me forget that its software.
Base line blooms wide and open and is glued on the ground. On the mix bus in parallel?
Icing on the cake!
PS
I have eight carnhills in my rack and this plug in sounds a lot like it.
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Post by ragan on Sept 24, 2019 16:08:07 GMT -6
I like that True Iron plug a lot too. I'll pick it up sometime. FWIW, I didn't have issues with it when I was demoing (Mac and PT).
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