kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Sept 17, 2019 19:41:08 GMT -6
Yes, he does, using logic’s utility I/o plug in and patchbays. Unless he has changed his set up. I copied his set up: works like a charm!
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Post by wiz on Sept 17, 2019 19:42:39 GMT -6
Wiz, so you don't run out of your DAW to the Delta and back for mixing? This is how I use it. I track to the DAW, Drums go straight from preamp to MOTU. Bass goes straight from V72 (sometimes LA2A inserted) to MOTU Vocal goes from preamp to STA Level to MOTU Acoustic Guitars straight from preamp to MOTU Electric Guitars straight from preamp to MOTU (though sometimes LA3A inserted) Backing vocals from preamp to STA Level, or LA2A or LA3A to MOTU Lead Vocal preamp to STA Level to MOTU So thats capture. Then I send the tracks out to the Delta, EQ, insert hardware and record those tracks back to new tracks in LOGIC, as individual tracks. Then I do a little tweak here and there ITB to nest things against each other, but honestly it might be +- 1 or 2 dB on one or two tracks with fab filter EQ ... then the two buss gets an IO plug in on it, goes back to 2 channels on the Delta, and gets the Stam Buss compressor inserted over it... and I run off the mix Its as simple as that Cheers Wiz
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Post by mrholmes on Sept 17, 2019 19:52:29 GMT -6
It's mainly the sonics. If the SSL sounds better than the Soundcraft Delta, I'd laen that way. It'll be a few months before I'm in position to look at buying anything, so I have time to research. When I was in your position and money was tight I asked my Tech what kind of mini mixer he would recommend. And he advised me to try an Allen and Heath ZED 14. I used this one for 3 years and the Tech was right, the specs are very close to LFC. After db advised me that mixing into some hardware can lead to a very similar experience like with a console. I sold the AH because even a small desk can cause space problems in a small setup. I am very happy today working hybrid or pure ITB....
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Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 17, 2019 22:16:39 GMT -6
Thanks Wiz!
Mrholmes, what hardware are you mixing into?
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Post by mrholmes on Sept 18, 2019 0:56:54 GMT -6
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Post by matt@IAA on Sept 18, 2019 9:24:33 GMT -6
Hey MJB I will have a demo unit available soon of the transformer box I was telling you about a while back, the Portia Street Stomp. It has been really useful for both tracking and mixdown warmth and transformer sheen/tone. May be just the ticket for what you’re looking for. PM me if you want to try it out. Cheers.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 18, 2019 15:23:17 GMT -6
Hi Matt, thanks for thinking of me. i'll shoot you a PM.
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Post by sirthought on Sept 19, 2019 9:29:56 GMT -6
Not to diminish the benefit of a console or mixing into a board, but I think a lot of the analog mojo can be picked up when summing. There are certainly plenty of options worth trying and if they don't do it for you it's not impossible gear to move.
One slightly more affordable choice is the Roll RMS216 Passive Summing Mixer and then into two nice preamps of your choice. You can find the 216 on Reverb sometimes as low as $450. Pair that with your tube pres, or the Stams and you'll be surprised. Reid Shippen wrote about how he uses his in Tape Op a couple years ago. Might be worth a Google search.
I think something like what Dog Ears sells, or the Dangerous stuff can really help, while your workflow stays essentially the same ITB. The Rolls is somewhat more affordable and you can experiment with different preamps that you might already have on hand.
I was looking at the SSL and it is interesting how much functionality is packed in there. But the major downside to me is how complicated it is to set up for all those various options. I, too, would be worried that the EQ and compression settings would be limiting at times. I haven't used it, so really hard to say. But the SSL compressor stand alone unit has more control options for a reason. I guess if you are working on your own all the time, taking the time to switch different things with the SSL might not matter. To me, the UAD EQs and compressors are so close to analog stuff I'm not sure it's worth the space and expense.
But I listened to your recording. I don't think the result was anything to beg for upgrades. It sounded really professional and not lacking for sonics. The Apollo worked!
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Post by matt@IAA on Sept 19, 2019 9:45:18 GMT -6
sirthought solid post. The hard part about understanding the impact of any equipment is you have to be able to separate the activity from the sonic signature imparted by the gear itself. Putting something through a class-A buffer with an output transformer will sound different than a modern IC buffer with electronic balanced outs - but both have no / negligible frequency response. I am not sure that passive summing does anything sonically by itself. A resistor doesn't really have a sound other than Johnson noise and for practical purposes has infinite headroom. I think when people run through passive summers what they're really enjoying is the makeup gain from whatever amplifier they're using. Active summing is different because the active element is going to introduce some imperfections in the summing itself...due to slew rate limitations, imperfections between active devices, etc. I think the net effect of this is what we tend to find pleasant. The apparent stereo image increases due to slight imperfections left to right (just like hard panning guitars), transients get rounded in a nonlinear way, and so on. AND you get tone of the piece on top. When I started on the active summing journey I was a skeptic. Then I built one and was kind of annoyed at how good it sounded, and had to try to figure out why. I think the more channels you're summing, the more the summing effects become apparent vs the tone of the amplifier portion. But you can get a LOT of mileage out of just an amplifier. Or even just running signal through a transformer.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 19, 2019 12:11:39 GMT -6
Thanks sirthought, your insights are helpful. I'm looking forward to trying an active summing mixer. It might just be enough.
I've only heard it a few times, but the Dangerous 2 Box + sure does add some of that big console mojo I'm looking for. Now, if only it was $999 ;-)
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Post by Chad on Sept 19, 2019 12:24:32 GMT -6
I have the Heritage Audio MCM-32 for summing, love the routing capabilities just for monitoring (simple but easier than using a mouse for everything.) Lots of cabling with all of the inserts so keep that expense in mind.
Chad
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Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 19, 2019 12:35:17 GMT -6
Cool Chad! In what ways have you found the sound changes? Have you tested it with and without?
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Post by notneeson on Sept 20, 2019 11:19:19 GMT -6
Martin, are you still rocking an Apollo?
The nice thing about a Dangerous D-Box or D-Box+ is that you'd just need the additional cabling— the io and monitoring solution is baked in.
Something like a 2 Bus+ is going to require more io, and a standalone monitor controller to provide a complete solution. (Best practice is to monitor mix capture, so you're printing back into Logic and listening back on a separate DA channel.)
The original D-Box doesn't have the tonal shaping options that the new one does, but personally I run my mix out of the D-Box and into a Stam 4000 comp and a pair of 1073 clones, so that's where the "glue" is coming from. I'm quite happy with it. They're getting quite affordable on the 2nd hand market too, which is nice.
Similar to the D-Box, many of the mixers mentioned on this thread aren't doing much in the mojo department (I spent years mixing on a Soundcraft Ghost for example, which can be pretty neutral if you watch your headroom. Pushing it doesn't sound good.)
Loads of people feel like the tactile interface of a console allows them to produce better work. (I'm not one of those people— mixed a few tunes on an API 1608 a while back and, while fun and awesome sounding, I like my setup just fine and feel that complete automation is preferable to faders in terms of producing great mixes).
So, hard to say what would be best for you, and a lot of the advice in the thread represents very different sounds and philosophies there of.
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Sept 20, 2019 12:29:28 GMT -6
Perhaps, the bottom line here is, you never know for certain till you try?
I essentially use my modded delta as a pass through device and summing as everything goes out it to OB comps and the 2 bus too, out to Audioscape ssl and wa273eq inserts (no pre but eq and output transformer are at play .
There is definitely a positive difference with more definition, weight and presence. A real mixer going to a patchbay if all your i/o is also on the bay let’s you send send/receive anything, anywhere or leave things dedicated to speed up workflow: plus 16 channels of pres and British 4 band eq.
Overkill for 1-2 tracks recording but if a drummer or band are coming in: nice and versatile.
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Post by notneeson on Sept 20, 2019 12:51:09 GMT -6
Perhaps, the bottom line here is, you never know for certain till you try? I essentially use my modded delta as a pass through device and summing as everything goes out it to OB comps and the 2 bus too, out to Audioscape ssl and wa273eq inserts (no pre but eq and output transformer are at play . There is definitely a positive difference with more definition, weight and presence. A real mixer going to a patchbay if all your i/o is also on the bay let’s you send send/receive anything, anywhere or leave things dedicated to speed up workflow: plus 16 channels of pres and British 4 band eq. Overkill for 1-2 tracks recording but if a drummer or band are coming in: nice and versatile. And priorities too— Does he need the weight, definition, and presence of the Neve and SSL clones? Or the transparency, ergonomics, and flexibility of something like your Delta? Or, does he need it all? (Yes, of course he does, this is RGO!)
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Post by Chad on Sept 20, 2019 12:53:39 GMT -6
Cool Chad! In what ways have you found the sound changes? Have you tested it with and without? Martin, So far... for my uses, it’s been more about ergonomics. Building my studio this time around, I contemplated when I was happiest and when creativity was flowing best, and it was at a time when I had a mixer in front of me and a couple of outboard tools. :-) I get lost in menus and too many choices. This keeps things simpler (so far). Chad
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Post by sean on Sept 20, 2019 13:29:58 GMT -6
The Focusrite/Audient 2802 might be a good fit for you. Pete Townsend uses an Audient now if that’s a selling point
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Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 20, 2019 14:07:10 GMT -6
Thanks Sean, I wasn't aware Audient had a mixer at that price point. I've been interested in their mixers for quite a while. It's around $1,200 more than the SSL though. I does have more channels which is tempting too. The thing is, if I really want more channels, the Soundcraft Delta looks sweet at the well under 1k price range.
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Post by subspace on Sept 20, 2019 14:22:12 GMT -6
Yeah man, it really ties a room together.
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Post by sean on Sept 20, 2019 15:34:48 GMT -6
Thanks Sean, I wasn't aware Audient had a mixer at that price point. I've been interested in the mixers for quite a while. It's around$1,200 more than the SSL though. I does have more channels which is temting too. The thing is, if I really want more channels, the Soundcraft Delta looks sweet at the well under 1k price range. It also has HUI control (dual layer faders) and a Stereo Buss Compressor with actual attack, release and ratio control. On the second hand market they seem to go for $1500-$2000
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Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 20, 2019 21:01:34 GMT -6
Thanks Sean, when I get closer to going for it, I will definitely look into that. Does HUI work with Logic? Also, I use the UAD X6, is that compatible?
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Post by sirthought on Sept 20, 2019 23:29:24 GMT -6
It'll be compatible for sure.
Those units have been discontinued though, so if you find one in your price range you have to be really sure you want it. I doubt there will be much technical support. But this thing seems like great kit. It's a shame that more people didn't buy into it.
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Post by subspace on Sept 21, 2019 4:20:23 GMT -6
Thanks Sean, when I get closer to going for it, I will definitely look into that. Does HUI work with Logic? Also, I use the UAD X6, is that compatible? You can select between HUI profiles to control Pro Tools, Logic, or Cubendo. I prefer the Logic profile as it loads two HUI instances, one for DAW control that banks through the session and the other that stays dedicated to 8 dummy tracks for controlling the analog automation. Don't know how it would work for UAD control.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 21, 2019 7:36:31 GMT -6
Thanks Guys. Since I'm just exploring the possibilities, maybe in time I'll be able actually hear these units in action. Two friends have modified Soundcraft boards, and it's possible I might be able hear the SSL at Alto Music.
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Post by M57 on Sept 21, 2019 8:02:51 GMT -6
Then I send the tracks out to the Delta, EQ, insert hardware and record those tracks back to new tracks in LOGIC, as individual tracks. Wiz So Why have a board at all? Why not just use something like the Silver Bullet? I guess what I'm asking is, what does a mixing board (with all of its extraneous and redundant functionality) contribute that makes it more desirable than a dedicated hardware chain that's designed to handle just the two channels at a time, which is all you need in the first place? ..assuming of course that you have a limited amount of gear and can only bounce one or two tracks at a time.
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