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Post by wiz on Sept 21, 2019 15:44:47 GMT -6
Then I send the tracks out to the Delta, EQ, insert hardware and record those tracks back to new tracks in LOGIC, as individual tracks. Wiz So Why have a board at all? Why not just use something like the Silver Bullet? I guess what I'm asking is, what does a mixing board (with all of its extraneous and redundant functionality) contribute that makes it more desirable than a dedicated hardware chain that's designed to handle just the two channels at a time, which is all you need in the first place? ..assuming of course that you have a limited amount of gear and can only bounce one or two tracks at a time. EQ, HPF,headroom,fader....knobs not mouse. cheers Wiz
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Post by notneeson on Sept 21, 2019 15:59:24 GMT -6
So Why have a board at all? Why not just use something like the Silver Bullet? I guess what I'm asking is, what does a mixing board (with all of its extraneous and redundant functionality) contribute that makes it more desirable than a dedicated hardware chain that's designed to handle just the two channels at a time, which is all you need in the first place? ..assuming of course that you have a limited amount of gear and can only bounce one or two tracks at a time. EQ, HPF,headroom,fader....knobs not mouse. cheers Wiz I think whatever works... works. Wiz is rocking his setup and that’s what matters. But... the silverbullet has EQ, hi pass, knobs, is mouse free, and so much more. No fader though. Consoles will always be cool, but to understand LTL’s thinking on the SB is to understand where audio technology is today— chasing the inspiring sounds of the past but wanting the incredible flexibility of the now. Add to which, DAW headroom issues are largely constrained to pro tools TDM rigs. (And whatever else uses fixed point vs. floating point summing). The rise of the summing mixer is tied directly to the ubiquity of that software and bad advice about “using all the bits.” The mixer in your DAW really is a high quality, transparent mixer. It also may not always provide the sound you’re chasing without analog processing.
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Post by M57 on Sept 21, 2019 16:45:39 GMT -6
So Why have a board at all? Why not just use something like the Silver Bullet? I guess what I'm asking is, what does a mixing board (with all of its extraneous and redundant functionality) contribute that makes it more desirable than a dedicated hardware chain that's designed to handle just the two channels at a time, which is all you need in the first place? ..assuming of course that you have a limited amount of gear and can only bounce one or two tracks at a time. EQ, HPF,headroom,fader....knobs not mouse. cheers Wiz But doesn't the SB have all those things? ..well maybe not the fader, but instead a good range of mojo options.
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Post by johneppstein on Sept 21, 2019 20:28:06 GMT -6
Yeah man, it really ties a room together. Not enough faders. WAAAY too many screens.
How can you do a full mix on eight faders?
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Post by johneppstein on Sept 21, 2019 20:36:06 GMT -6
Then I send the tracks out to the Delta, EQ, insert hardware and record those tracks back to new tracks in LOGIC, as individual tracks. Wiz So Why have a board at all? Why not just use something like the Silver Bullet? I guess what I'm asking is, what does a mixing board (with all of its extraneous and redundant functionality) contribute that makes it more desirable than a dedicated hardware chain that's designed to handle just the two channels at a time, which is all you need in the first place? ..assuming of course that you have a limited amount of gear and can only bounce one or two tracks at a time. It's not the board that has "extraneous and redundant functionality". It's the DAW that has extranenous and redundant DISfunctionality. Unless you actually believe that attempting to adjust an onscreen "knob" with a damn jerky mouse is superior to moving a real knob precisely with your fingers. (It ain't.) Same thing with faders. I have NEVER seen an onscreen "fader" that was even remotely as even and precise as a real hardware fader, unless the fader was broken or the console was junk.
I mix on a console by physical feel. There is no precise physical feel with a damn mouse.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 21, 2019 20:57:07 GMT -6
I believe the Silver Bullet's $2,100. The SSL's around $1,400, the 2 Bus + around $2.700. I know products like the Silver Bullet and 2 Bus + are costly to develop and make, but if they were under $1,000, I'd have one already. It won't be too long before the SSL's 1K used somewhere, but I think I'd prefer the SB or the 2 Bus + more though.
Time's on my side. It sure would help if I could hear the SSL Six in action though.
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Post by drbill on Sept 21, 2019 21:20:18 GMT -6
The Silver Bullet is made in the USA. The Six is made in China. That alone should give you an idea of why the cost is what it is. If the Six was boutique made in the US it would cost double the Silver Bullet. In addition to where these are made, the SB also has a lot of discrete electronics and multiple Neve and API style custom transformers. Those cost $$$$. It may be expensive, but for what it delivers, it's an incredible bargain IMO. It would be impossible to build the box as is for under $1k - even building in the hundreds or thousands. That said, if you need faders that push audio, you need a console / mixer. Period - end of story. IMO the Silver Bullet is sonically light years ahead of any SSL, but that's a personal opinion that I built on LONG before the SB was even an inkling in my brain. Neve and API consoles are the best sounding consoles in the world IMO, and that's why we patterned the SB after them - not after an SSL. It's essentially a 2 channel unit that will deliver the sound of it's behemoth large frame console brethren of yesteryear. A 2 channel API/NEVE console if you will. SSL's claim to fame is it's automation, and total recall. And to a lesser degree, it's buss comp. If I was tracking bands, I'd still have my console. A console is invaluable in that style of recording. I used the Silver Bullet with my OrionX before I sold it, and it was awesome. But I'm not tracking bands very often, and even when I am, I can do great workarounds with HDX. This time around, I built my studio WITHOUT the huge console reflection footprint, and for that, I'm pretty happy. Although I do miss the beauty. In my experience the console TALK is huge. But the console buyers few. The wiring, patchbays, footprint size, HVAC costs, etc. limit so many from doing it. The vast majority of studio's that are still rocking consoles are using ones that are 20-30 years old for the most part. People love to chat up consoles, not many are willing to commit to the huge impact it has on the time, money, and logistics of studio life. Real consoles (not mixers so much) are dead sexy though, and if I had a second room, it would almost certainly have a console in it unless I was just mixing - if it was for mixing, then it would have a big ass S6. Unfortunately the industry, budgets and production styles have changed. :-( Long live consoles. Even if just in my memories.....
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Post by wiz on Sept 22, 2019 1:27:52 GMT -6
EQ, HPF,headroom,fader....knobs not mouse. cheers Wiz But doesn't the SB have all those things? ..well maybe not the fader, but instead a good range of mojo options. I don’t think so... I have 4 band 2 sweepable eq,hpf....and I dedicate the channels to instruments. I can ride the faders in real time as I reamp etc cheers Wiz
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Post by M57 on Sept 22, 2019 4:22:06 GMT -6
But doesn't the SB have all those things? ..well maybe not the fader, but instead a good range of mojo options. I don’t think so... I have 4 band 2 sweepable eq,hpf....and I dedicate the channels to instruments. I can ride the faders in real time as I reamp etc cheers Wiz As for riding faders while re-amping, well you got me there. When you say you dedicate channels, do you mean you have working presets/templates strips that are dedicated to the typical instruments you use? I'm thinking that's not necessary if you're bouncing one at a time, but it is convenient. As far as the filters are concerned, wouldn't you be better off using inserts in a hypothetical SilverBullet with the hardware EQs of your choice? On the other hand if you like everything about the board, and it's a match made in heaven, then there's no extraneous functionality. One more question. If you're only bouncing one track (or stem) at a time does board crosstalk even matter? (assuming one considers that to be a feature)
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Post by subspace on Sept 22, 2019 8:00:31 GMT -6
Yeah man, it really ties a room together. Not enough faders. WAAAY too many screens.
How can you do a full mix on eight faders?
You kids these days that need more than 8 tracks to make a record... those fancy 16 and 24 tracks are going to destroy music! Once I go past 24 faders, I'm using the computer to remember my mix moves and live in 'touch' auto mode on the Audient. Screens are really fancy board tape and Sharpie with better penmanship.
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Post by lando on Sept 22, 2019 8:16:31 GMT -6
Silver bullet looks super tempting and has been since it came out...maybe this year I will finally go hybrid and order one!
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Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 22, 2019 8:43:43 GMT -6
Cool setup subspace! What board is that?
Thanks for that great post DrBill. Please don't misunderstand me, I absolutely get the value of a product like the Silver Bullet, and I'm sure it is a great deal all things considered. There was a time I'd buy something like that in a heartbeat, but with the changes in the music business, I make 10% of what I made in the 80's and 90's for the same work, so I just don't have the wiggle room to buy at the level I'd prefer. Personally, I don't need faders, but I do miss hands on EQ's. The 2 Bus + or a Silver Bullet would be one of the first things I'd try if I could afford it before attempting to go with a soundboard.
My tastes run to high end minimalism. Two great hardware compressors, two reverbs and EQ's and I'd continue to focus on the mics. I wouldn't want to be the guy with an entire wall of gear. That's just me, I sure do appreciate that when I see it.
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Post by M57 on Sept 22, 2019 9:25:23 GMT -6
Cool setup subspace! What board is that? I want to know more about that vintage looking boom box and why there's an empty 500 rack
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Post by schmalzy on Sept 22, 2019 9:27:43 GMT -6
I mix on a console by physical feel. There is no precise physical feel with a damn mouse.
What you're describing is exactly why I moved to Console 1 for as much of my mix workflow as possible. I also bought a larger trackpad for those "fader" rides. Reaper is really great in many ways. One of those ways (and other DAWs do this, too - Cubase I know for sure) is it'll allow you to add a keyboard button to increase the detail available in the knob/fader on-screen moves. Detail and precision isn't a problem for me anymore. Combine the Console 1 knobs and buttons workflow with the trackpad for my faders workflow and I'm feeling a lot better than I did when I was all on the mouse. If you work it correctly, you can even do the "balance one thing vs another" thing that is a huge downfall of the mouse-only workflow and a huge positive to my continued live sound (on a digital board and not a touch surface) workflow.
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Post by subspace on Sept 22, 2019 9:36:13 GMT -6
Cool setup subspace! What board is that? It's a Trident Trimix, 16 inputs x 8 subgroups x 10 tape returns. Bought and had it flown from a studio in Sydney 18 years ago, when it was already 20 years old. Mic pre/EQ design is from the Series 80 but the hi/lo shelves are fixed at 10k/100Hz so some outboard Pultec or Neve HPF/Lo shelf control is helpful for dialing in the bottom. I bus mics together during tracking as part of my workflow, inside/outside, top/bottom, mic/DI, to feed one compressor/EQ, even if I'm recording the individual direct outs as well.
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Post by subspace on Sept 22, 2019 9:43:24 GMT -6
Cool setup subspace! What board is that? I want to know more about that vintage looking boom box and why there's an empty 500 rack If you're not monitoring with 3D Hyper-Bass, you're not really monitoring at all... I only have the four units that are in that Aphex lunchbox in the Audient picture, but two more CAPI kits are sitting and waiting to force me into separate preamp and compression 500 racks.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2019 11:36:59 GMT -6
Even if I sound like a broken record....(sorry) But if real estate and budget is tight, for downmix I can only recommend Mixbus. I have a real console collecting dust (well, actually 2 with 24+ch each but only one readily set up for mixing with 24ch DAC) since I use Mixbus 32c all the time. Kind of sad for the hardware, really. But for me it does the trick perfectly. Even the standard version of Mixbus gives that analog feel and sound. For ITB it is pretty much unique and unsurpassed IMO. A (cheap) controller and you have hands-on feel. Most probably I will never mix on my console again... The console might go to the rehearsal room of my band, as a band mixer and for preamps while recording there... Just saying. The software has a fully functional demo mode that bursts in noise from time to time, until you install the license file, so it can be tested without any risk... Well worth at least a try... Really, if I had known, how often (i.e. always, nowadays) I would use it, I might have saved the money for the MOTU AVB and the console and cables etc. ... There is even a tutorial video how to connect it just for summing to Logic, so it is very easy to compare sounds you get with clean digital DAW´and Mixbus. Or external summing...
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Post by M57 on Sept 22, 2019 12:47:23 GMT -6
But if real estate and budget is tight, for downmix I can only recommend Mixbus. ^^This and Console 1 are on my radar where sonic virtual board options are concerned. I just don't know how much they would contribute to what I do, and how redundant they would be if I'm already building a chain that I can use like wiz does. I do have the Slate E-Bundle, which has the Virtual Console, and I have to admit I use it sparingly.
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Post by drbill on Sept 22, 2019 13:38:05 GMT -6
Thanks for that great post DrBill. Please don't misunderstand me, I absolutely get the value of a product like the Silver Bullet, and I'm sure it is a great deal all things considered. There was a time I'd buy something like that in a heartbeat, but with the changes in the music business, I make 10% of what I made in the 80's and 90's for the same work, so I just don't have the wiggle room to buy at the level I'd prefer. Personally, I don't need faders. No worries Martin. I completely get it. Cheers,
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Post by Quint on Sept 22, 2019 14:07:25 GMT -6
Even if I sound like a broken record....(sorry) But if real estate and budget is tight, for downmix I can only recommend Mixbus. I have a real console collecting dust (well, actually 2 with 24+ch each but only one readily set up for mixing with 24ch DAC) since I use Mixbus 32c all the time. Kind of sad for the hardware, really. But for me it does the trick perfectly. Even the standard version of Mixbus gives that analog feel and sound. For ITB it is pretty much unique and unsurpassed IMO. A (cheap) controller and you have hands-on feel. Most probably I will never mix on my console again... The console might go to the rehearsal room of my band, as a band mixer and for preamps while recording there... Just saying. The software has a fully functional demo mode that bursts in noise from time to time, until you install the license file, so it can be tested without any risk... Well worth at least a try... Really, if I had known, how often (i.e. always, nowadays) I would use it, I might have saved the money for the MOTU AVB and the console and cables etc. ... There is even a tutorial video how to connect it just for summing to Logic, so it is very easy to compare sounds you get with clean digital DAW´and Mixbus. Or external summing... With Mixbus, is it the workflow that mostly does it for you, or is it the sound, or both? I keep hearing people talk about it, but I've never tried it. What makes it better than other DAWs? How well would Mixbus integrate with external summing? Or is the internal summing the whole point?
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Post by wiz on Sept 22, 2019 15:51:26 GMT -6
I don’t think so... I have 4 band 2 sweepable eq,hpf....and I dedicate the channels to instruments. I can ride the faders in real time as I reamp etc cheers Wiz As for riding faders while re-amping, well you got me there. When you say you dedicate channels, do you mean you have working presets/templates strips that are dedicated to the typical instruments you use? I'm thinking that's not necessary if you're bouncing one at a time, but it is convenient. As far as the filters are concerned, wouldn't you be better off using inserts in a hypothetical SilverBullet with the hardware EQs of your choice? On the other hand if you like everything about the board, and it's a match made in heaven, then there's no extraneous functionality. One more question. If you're only bouncing one track (or stem) at a time does board crosstalk even matter? (assuming one considers that to be a feature) Hi Yes...I basically have a channel designated to an instrument...eg my kick channels is my kick channel etc. Most of the time I track drums (6 channels) then bass and acoustic guitar, and then reamp those at once. So 9 tracks in one go.... I have enough outboard to do that. Then it’s usually one channel at a time. If I were to use a silver bullet and dedicated hardware for EQ, it would cost me way more than my board and actually not be as easy on me ergonomically. Dont forget I have modded my delta and the EQ is certainly better than all cheaper rack or 500 series EQs I have used/owned... My cross talk is exceptionally low ......and not a factor. cheers Wiz
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Post by kcatthedog on Sept 22, 2019 17:15:34 GMT -6
I do something similar to wiz. It found I was lazy in terms of resetting my eq, so leave it flat on board but do have dedicated channels and that I love fab filter eq so use that in my daw.
I still have the benefit of passing signal through delta and ob comps and vary settings in those to suit song and use logic’s summing but send 2 bus back out to Audioscape ssl and wa273eq inserts, post it’s pres, for its hpf, neve style 3 band eq and output transformer and drive to taste.
I always prefer the hybrid ITB/OTB mix to just ITB.
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Post by popmann on Sept 22, 2019 20:08:36 GMT -6
Even if I sound like a broken record....(sorry) But if real estate and budget is tight, for downmix I can only recommend Mixbus. I have a real console collecting dust (well, actually 2 with 24+ch each but only one readily set up for mixing with 24ch DAC) since I use Mixbus 32c all the time. Kind of sad for the hardware, really. But for me it does the trick perfectly. Even the standard version of Mixbus gives that analog feel and sound. For ITB it is pretty much unique and unsurpassed IMO. A (cheap) controller and you have hands-on feel. Most probably I will never mix on my console again... The console might go to the rehearsal room of my band, as a band mixer and for preamps while recording there... Just saying. The software has a fully functional demo mode that bursts in noise from time to time, until you install the license file, so it can be tested without any risk... Well worth at least a try... Really, if I had known, how often (i.e. always, nowadays) I would use it, I might have saved the money for the MOTU AVB and the console and cables etc. ... There is even a tutorial video how to connect it just for summing to Logic, so it is very easy to compare sounds you get with clean digital DAW´and Mixbus. Or external summing... With Mixbus, is it the workflow that mostly does it for you, or is it the sound, or both? I keep hearing people talk about it, but I've never tried it. What makes it better than other DAWs? How well would Mixbus integrate with external summing? Or is the internal summing the whole point? 1- Sound. Wonderful EQ. Great summing. If you made is sound like the nullable DAWs, I wouldn't CONSIDER using it for anything. See : "Ardour". 2- Sound. It also launches faster, but....I mean....sound. 3- You literally can't use it with external summing due to the method of compensation. But, yes--the fact that they fixed ITB summing IS largely it's point. That, and what a wonderful sounding channel EQ.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 22, 2019 21:12:57 GMT -6
That makes me wonder why Pro Tools and Apple haven’t copied their summing “solution”.
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Post by christopher on Sept 22, 2019 21:36:04 GMT -6
Anyone try Reason? My friend is a long time user and a few years back they redid the mixer to be an SSL. I’ve never compared to other plugins versions. He’s always telling me to switch to it. Sonically his stuff does sound pretty polished with a nice sheen.
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