|
Post by geoff738 on Feb 2, 2014 11:56:58 GMT -6
Ok, I'm mainly talking LDCs here. I'll also begin with the caveat that I'm purely a hobbyist now, so I'm not in and out of real studios where I might get the chance to hear more stuff.
Back in the 80s when I started doing this, pretty much the only LDCs I'd see (or at least remember) were 87s and 414s. The places I saw weren't swanky enough to have M49s or 47s hanging around (or they hid them from me). It was pretty simple. The "money" mic was always an 87.
Now we have(just going off the top of my head): Avantone, Bock, Brauner, Cathedral Pipes, Blue, Violet, Flea, Wonder, Mojave, ADK, Lauten, Miktek, JJ, Oktava, Beezneez, Charter Oak, Beyer, Blackspade, Horch, Pearlman, Peluso, Josephson. Not to mention Neumann, AKG, AT, Gefell, Telefunken, (does Senn make an LDC?), and onto stuff like Stellar and Sterling and Advanced Audio, KEL, and modders like Joly. Lets ignore the stuff like APEX, MXL etc.
So that's well over thirty manufacturers - and I'm sure there are oodles more I've left out. (Just realized I forgot Shure).
On the one hand we're spoiled for choice like never before.
On the other hand it can be a bit overwhelming.
How do you guys go about deciding your mic purchases these days?
Cheers, Geoff
|
|
|
Post by Ward on Feb 2, 2014 12:31:21 GMT -6
Since I've been at this for virtually 3/4 of my life, I've learned what are the mics to have in the toolbox. I acquire them as available cash and opportunity collide. 90% of the time, I buy used. In terms of LDCs, you can go with the consensus on each, and judge the acquisitions accordingly. You don't necessarily need to follow the Ferengi Rules of Acquisition.
What do you need next? That's the biggest question. Starting point? Always a U87 and a pair of 414s. Which 414s? Up to you... know the differences between EB, XL2, XLII, XLS, TL, TL2, ULS etc and btw, I listed them there from brightest to darkest. From there? What are your needs?
|
|
|
Post by tonycamphd on Feb 2, 2014 13:17:03 GMT -6
If it applies? a good way to start from scratch? Outfit ur self with enough mics and flavors of mics to track a full drum kit, ribbons, LCDs, SDCs, and dynamics.
For loose example; pair of ribbons for over heads, fet 47 for kick, sm57 snare, md421's for toms, sm81's for hi hat, C12 for room.
then ur covered for tracking just about anything they throw at u in the studio.
hope this helps a little
as far as Chinese mics, there are a lot of the same mics rebranded as different, when in reality they are exactly the same, that narrows the field down significantly.
|
|
|
Post by popmann on Feb 2, 2014 14:33:14 GMT -6
You should buy baseline standard LDD and SDCs. Anything else you potentially buy should be compared directly to those. Dynamics will do better in close mic scenarios than inexpensive LDCs....and SDCs at medium distance.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2014 15:01:16 GMT -6
buy a CV4 and get Shannon to mod it.
|
|
|
Post by jeromemason on Feb 2, 2014 15:35:14 GMT -6
The market is much larger, looks more confusing.... but IMO buying a microphone these days is much easier and wayyy cheaper. You can literally buy a cheaper mic and just send it off to a "sinsay" as matkat suggested above and when it comes back it will be right there with mic's that cost 10x as much. Then you get into the DIY mics, which will use premium components, some of them not ROHS compliant, that's the thing these days it seems with getting the old school sound. At least that's what a lot of techs are blaming it on. The good news, if you're not selling a mic as a retailer you can use those components and get really close to the way these mics used to sound, for much cheaper. If you're not into building things, just google the model of the mic and buy it off the 2nd hand market, it'll be much cheaper and sound great, and close to the original it was modeled after.
Some good advice in the post's above on selection, but there are plenty of options, best thing you could do is make a post on a site that harbors the people that already have tried and have experience with weeding through all these choices. You've done that, so take the info that comes in the thread, do research on the ones that seem to fit what you want, and then make a decision.
Have fun!
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Feb 2, 2014 16:07:09 GMT -6
There are great options out there. I'm not sure I buy Popmann's premise of buying Large Diaphragm Condensers - there are plenty of good LDC's that are cheap and easy to get good sounds out of. ADK, Shure KSM44, Blue Bluebird, AT's...All under $1000...
|
|
|
Post by popmann on Feb 2, 2014 16:51:01 GMT -6
I never said someone can't get a good sound out of something. For the record.
I simply know that the premise/assumption is that an LDC mic sounds better in some way* than a dynamic or SDC because of the type of microphone it is.... is patently a poor assumption, given my experience as you know-an audio engineer. This is about better/worse at a given price point. SDCs and dynamics can be made WELL...cheaper and (as important to general discussion) more consistently than LDCs.
*discounting a situation where the tracking calls for fig8 pickup to exploit the nulls.
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Feb 2, 2014 17:33:25 GMT -6
Speaking of which - you tried the LDD Heil mics?
|
|
|
Post by Bob Olhsson on Feb 2, 2014 18:12:08 GMT -6
First, I'd suggest a pair of whatever so you can compare mike positions. It can make a bigger difference than anything else.
My go-to "desert island" mikes have been SM57s and KM-84s. One or the other simply works and in most cases I can move on to more important issues. I've had to use most of the others plenty but the number of times an 84 has simply walked all over one of the highly touted inexpensive condensers or even the exotic LD antiques has been immense. By the way, the 184 was a disappointment. It could be too bright and I've run into RFI issues with them.
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Feb 2, 2014 18:15:21 GMT -6
Bob, you talking about using the 84 as a vocal mic over some of the cheaper LDC's?
|
|
|
Post by Bob Olhsson on Feb 2, 2014 18:38:23 GMT -6
Absolutely! Every vocal at Motown between 1967 and 1970 was recorded with a KM 86 which is two of the very same capsules back to back forming a three pattern mike.
They have such an even pattern that both the room and position become far less critical than with most mikes. They are somewhat prone to popping so you need a pop screen or better yet vocalists who have been trained not to pop. The added reach allows a bit more distant placement than many mikes. The only other thing is that shock mounting is important. The best I've found are the donuts made for Shure SM-81s.
|
|
|
Post by dandeurloo on Feb 2, 2014 18:43:40 GMT -6
I've recorded a number of scratch vocals with km84's while laying down acoustic tracks. Every time I've been shocked how cool they sound. It really is a great mic.
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Feb 2, 2014 18:59:08 GMT -6
What's a good price for a km84?
|
|
|
Post by Guitar on Feb 2, 2014 19:33:02 GMT -6
Basically, you don't need to know about all of them. It's like trying to watch every movie, read every book, and listen to every band. Once you find a few that work all around, not much left to worry about. Like finding a wife, or something. But plenty of room for exploration if you ever want it. I don't think anyone here has heard half of those mics, or even brands. Hell, looking at Audio-Technica's full product range will make your head spin, to name one company alone. I also tend, more or less, toward the "standards" meself.
|
|
|
Post by popmann on Feb 2, 2014 19:39:28 GMT -6
Speaking of which - you tried the LDD Heil mics? I haven't. I know someone whom I trust his ears who has....he said they're brighter. Pre-EQ'd. Nice in the kick (where heavy EQ is typical)...floor tom...but, sounded to me kind of the answer to a question I didn't ask you know? An Sm7 isn't particularly dark. It's just not pre-EQd and hyped up. It captures breathy air in a vocal pretty damned well, IME... The argument against them for vocals really is that the singer can't be bobbing and moving all over like they can 2-3ft from an LDC. Axl Rose on an Sm7 woulda been an issue!
|
|
|
Post by popmann on Feb 2, 2014 19:46:15 GMT -6
I like the finding a wife analogy. Maybe to carry that further, I would be a guy who got married while he was young and foolish....divorced for a decade of chasing strange...only to realize the first wife was really the right woman--I just wasn't ready for her the first time around! Ha.
I realized how much time I wouldn't have wasted had I kept my old studio standards to measure baseline.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2014 20:35:29 GMT -6
Lots of very good tips given already. Try a few of the workhorse mics you see all over the place, preferably in pairs, maybe a pair of SM57, SM58 and/or Beyer M201 for dynamic mics, lend them out or try them in a local studio. Learn about the mics before buying, first hand. I nearly never bought a mic i havent heard or used before, in studio or on stage. I asked studio and FoH engineers alot that i trusted because they made me/the band sound good. Depending on budget, you may want to try SM7, 421's or 441's (hypercardiodid) as well. A pair of small diaphragm condensers as well. Maybe Octava MK012 - sure, KM84s are great mics and workhorses, but it all depends on budget. For the LDC(s) i guess it is about your budget and what kind of sources you will probably record mainly. Example: Some are more "go-to" mics for male vocals, some for female voices, some darker, some with alot of shine - it needs to fit the sources and styles you mainly record, or be fairly neutral (e.g. U87 is thrown on endless different things in many budget studios for ages for a reason...), otherwise you may have to invest in additional LDCs soon to be flexible enough...
Man, i started with an SM58 because i needed one for stage background singing to carry around by myself to be independent from the stuff the venues had. And it was the only one that i instantly could trust on stage from own experience, it was cheap and worked for this specific re-occuring occasion for me and others. Many start with 3 mics, 2 workhorses and one for voice, and these will never be sold again, no matter what you might buy next. And then try to make them sound good on as many sources possible, mic placement etc..... Then reconsider from experience what to buy next that fits your applications... I personally found this a good way to never regret a mic purchase...
Best regards, Martin
|
|
|
Post by watchtower on Feb 2, 2014 22:06:18 GMT -6
Speaking of the KM84, I wish somebody could clone that mic well.
|
|
|
Post by Bob Olhsson on Feb 2, 2014 23:42:08 GMT -6
A whole lot of us have been hoping for that! Neumann still has parts so you'd think they would just put it back in production.
|
|
|
Post by svart on Feb 3, 2014 8:01:32 GMT -6
I stopped reading the hype. I realized that once you get above a certain price point, mic "quality" stopped mattering so much and it was only about very small differences in flavor.
So now I only buy mics that give me something I can recognize as useful, which means I don't have very many mics!
Remember, most of those mic manufacturers listed in the OP's post are mostly copies or clones of other famous mics. Figure out WHY you want one of them first, and do NOT use "because I want better quality" as your reason. Find something like "I want the low end of a U47 but the midrange of a UT70S" which is going to guide your research. If you can't tell why you want a new mic, then wait until you can, or else you'll buy the wrong one and things just won't sound right. you'll be attempting to mix the mic to the sound rather than using the mic to get your sound.
|
|
|
Post by watchtower on Feb 3, 2014 8:36:30 GMT -6
A whole lot of us have been hoping for that! Neumann still has parts so you'd think they would just put it back in production. Indeed. Neumann still sells the capsules (and not THAT expensive), so maybe it's just a matter of getting someone to manufacture the body and the transformer. Maybe someone could convince Oliver at Tab to make that tranny.
|
|
|
Post by svart on Feb 3, 2014 8:52:54 GMT -6
Neumann/sennheiser isn't going to go back to making a mic that costs a significant amount to manufacture. The KM184 is probably 50-75$ in COGS, whereas the KM84 is more like 300$ in COGS. When the market will bear around 1000$ per mic, the difference is a couple hundred $$ in profit.
Besides, when Neumann will probably only sell capsules to verified owners of KM mics.. I remember when other manufacturers (hint: AKG)caught on that folks were using "repair" capsules to make clones, they shut down sales of parts to people who don't own them.
|
|
|
Post by tonycamphd on Feb 3, 2014 9:47:38 GMT -6
|
|
|
Post by Bob Olhsson on Feb 3, 2014 10:01:09 GMT -6
There have been lots of clones. Many sound really good on acoustic guitar because that's what the 84 is noted for but forget about vocals, strings, horns, drums, electric guitars, orchestras, etc.
Any 84 or 87 that looks pretty new has probably had the housing replaced. My understanding is that the main difference between an 84 and a 184 is that the capsule isn't interchangeable, is a slightly different design and there is no transformer.
|
|