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Post by Martin John Butler on Dec 19, 2013 12:09:44 GMT -6
That might be interesting to try Bob. When I'm tracking a vocal at home, just play the mix through the monitors and let the singer sing along? Any tips on how loud? If I keep it low so there's little of the music in the vocal track, the vocalist might not sing as well as when it's louder, but.. when louder, perhaps it could mess up the mix EQ?
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Post by popmann on Dec 19, 2013 12:20:56 GMT -6
Yes, analog cue. Hugely important to me as an artist. I literally won't hire a studio (which for me just means basics these days) without a fully analog cue system. Because that's NOT about sonics...it's about the performance.
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Post by jsteiger on Dec 19, 2013 12:43:28 GMT -6
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Post by popmann on Dec 19, 2013 13:26:19 GMT -6
Yes, he's long been a proponent of no phones. It certainly is more natural.
...though honestly, the phase stuff I've found mostly unnecessary. I either use an Sm7 with it's back to the speakers...or an LDC in Fig8 with it's side to the speakers. I might doctor the mix some--lower the bass if it's an LDC, as that's the only real bleed I get...sometimes collapse to mono...
I'm fine with cans myself--as long as the feed in them is analog...but, I grew up a studio rat...you have to cater to the client...so, you SHOULD know how to do the above. And there's very little good reason to NOT have an analog overdub cue...I mean...I have all of $130 invested--and the little line Chinese built mixer was actually bought as a synth sub years ago...I bought a couple Y cables (and did my OCD testing to make sure they weren't coloring the signal)...and we were cooking with gas--so, it's not like to achieve this, you need to have an API. Although, API certainly sells little modular mixers...but...you know what I'm saying...
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Dec 19, 2013 20:41:33 GMT -6
This was how virtually all overdubbing was done prior to the late 1960s. The bleed actually sounds great. It's only a problem if there's something in it that you don't want in the final mix. I played with the phase thing but found it to not make much of a difference.
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Post by popmann on Dec 19, 2013 21:11:58 GMT -6
BTW....for anyone playing at home, the Fig8 side nulls more than the Sm7 back.
When I need to do that, I simply set the side up to point to one of the monitors--and turn the other monitor off.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Dec 19, 2013 21:22:57 GMT -6
A cardioid is an omni mixed with a figure 8.
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Post by Guitar on Dec 19, 2013 22:00:48 GMT -6
nice tip pop mann I am going to have to try that
I HATE SINGING WITH PHONES!!!!
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Post by Guitar on Dec 19, 2013 22:01:39 GMT -6
also going to try: vocal tracking with AKG open back headphones... compare bleed and singing experience to speaker methods
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Dec 20, 2013 9:23:30 GMT -6
Wally Heider used Sennheiser 414s for everybody and they worked great. A lot of '60s and '70s artists were taught to put the phones on their head in front of their ears. It took me a decade to finally figure out why they wanted their cans so damned loud!
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Post by svart on Dec 20, 2013 9:46:06 GMT -6
Why can't the headphone mix have the compression? Singers also like reverb, and no one I know prints that? IMO Unless u don't have the quantity of compressors you need to cover tasks after tracking, there is a flaw in the logic of removing useable color from ur sources , this opinion is shared by quite a few beasts in the field, I'm a nobody, but I agree. But Again, this is art, so to each his own, no one should do it like a Bruce S or Bob O if they have a clear vision of their goal, and the path differs. In my setup, I monitor the vocals pre-stream. This is a great benefit of the SSL alphalink and the DSP card it can use.. So the vocals come into the A/D and I take a send of that to a bus and add compression and reverb almost EVERY time for every vocalist and send that back to them via the ADAT output to an ADAT-analog converter to an analog headphone system. This way there is very little latency and the small amount there is, is mainly covered up by the reverb. I think of it this way. Vocalists LOVE singing in the shower and places where there are a lot of reflections. They do this because it's a lot easier to harmonize with their reflections and keep even notes. I just emulate that by compression and some plate reverb. Almost every vocalist I work with loves it and they miss it when I bypass it. The stream, however, is clean and uncompressed but in mixing I always use 1176+LA2A and some plate delay with reverb, even if it's really low in the mix. It's funny because I always get "Man, your mic and room sound awesome!" when they don't quite understand that it's the sum of everything and not a single point. I get that a lot, musicians always confuse how much work and processing actually go into making them sound good with there being a single device that makes them sound good. I suppose it's just easier for them to believe that a single mic can make them sound like a big star.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Dec 20, 2013 10:07:24 GMT -6
When a guitar amp is set to use higher gain, the sustain increases, and my entire performance is completely different from when I'm at a clean setting. The sustain alone changes what I choose to play. It's similar for a vocalist, a nice reverb sustained and a slightly even volume at peaks, changes every single syllable they sing, and in most cases, you get a better performance. Of course, some mic skills can help a lot. I never use compression that can be heard, but without the LA2 in my mix, the vocals are never as balanced and listenable.
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 20, 2013 10:09:57 GMT -6
I think someone mentioned this earlier, but one of my hesitancies with using a little mixer for headphones is degrading the sound...So no degradation?
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Dec 20, 2013 10:49:07 GMT -6
The little mixer is across the preamp output and not in line to the converter.
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Post by jsteiger on Dec 20, 2013 10:54:19 GMT -6
Just a mult from the preamp JK.
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Post by svart on Dec 20, 2013 11:57:31 GMT -6
A resistive splitter would work, or if the impedance of the second device isn't very high (line input or DI input) the just running a straight splitter to it would work
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 20, 2013 19:02:49 GMT -6
Gotcha...duh...
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Post by Ward on Dec 23, 2013 23:26:11 GMT -6
Cans can also cause pitch problems for a lot of us sangers!
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Post by littlesicily on Dec 24, 2013 7:39:19 GMT -6
Cans can also cause pitch problems for a lot of us sangers! Taking one side of phones off an ear fixes that quickly. Like Bob O said, singers tend to sing better without phones and this one ear off method gives me best of both worlds.
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Post by Ward on Dec 24, 2013 9:12:12 GMT -6
That's the tried and true method, llittlesicily!
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Post by littlesicily on Dec 24, 2013 9:15:11 GMT -6
That's the tried and true method, llittlesicily! Yeah, it's always fun to watch a new singer experience this. At first they keep asking for "more vocal in the cue" till they no longer can hear the music and lose pitch and timing...then they take an ear off and viola'... it's all better
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Dec 24, 2013 11:17:43 GMT -6
Speakers actually worked surprisingly better than one on/one off! The main thing is to make sure the bleed is clean. I've also heard of people recording a track of just the bleed and mixing it in with the phase flipped. You wouldn't want to compress on the way in.
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 24, 2013 12:03:08 GMT -6
Only time I ever have problems with phones is doubling a part. Usually on ooo's and ah's, so I just usually mute the part or turn it way down. It's actually kind of hilarious to hear how off pitch you can get when doubling ooo's with hp's on.
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Post by littlesicily on Dec 24, 2013 12:04:41 GMT -6
Speakers actually worked surprisingly better than one on/one off! The main thing is to make sure the bleed is clean. I've also heard of people recording a track of just the bleed and mixing it in with the phase flipped. You wouldn't want to compress on the way in. Bob, in a world (as unfortunate as it is) where it seems a very low percentage of the recording population can release vocals that are not tuned and/or time aligned (in part, at least) ... the "bleed" factor seems to be a strong deterrent. How "clean" can the bleed get using speakers? I've never done that.
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Post by littlesicily on Dec 24, 2013 12:05:07 GMT -6
Only time I ever have problems with phones is doubling a part. Usually on ooo's and ah's, so I just usually mute the part or turn it way down. It's actually kind of hilarious to hear how off pitch you can get when doubling ooo's with hp's on. Agreed.
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