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Post by jsteiger on Dec 11, 2013 21:32:32 GMT -6
And let's not forget all those transformers!
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 11, 2013 22:00:21 GMT -6
The first ten space module...
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Post by tonycamphd on Dec 11, 2013 22:17:44 GMT -6
^ lmao JK, cept 10's one too small, jeff would have to design it for the 51x box  |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2013 22:35:05 GMT -6
I vote the thread name be changed to I'm reaally thinking I might go without - Psych!
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 11, 2013 23:10:32 GMT -6
I'm a hypocrite...
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Post by Ward on Dec 12, 2013 18:00:00 GMT -6
Well, I'll be the odd man out here and categorically state that I LOVE tracking with compression - but you'll never hear it. If you can hear the compression, you're not doing it right. And it isn't all about "The Loudness Wars" or Tony's hilarious video, it's about the tone and keeping the things constant enough that need to be constant.
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 12, 2013 21:00:46 GMT -6
Well, I'll be the odd man out here and categorically state that I LOVE tracking with compression - but you'll never hear it. If you can hear the compression, you're not doing it right. And it isn't all about "The Loudness Wars" or Tony's hilarious video, it's about the tone and keeping the things constant enough that need to be constant. I agree with that... |
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Post by littlesicily on Dec 13, 2013 12:11:45 GMT -6
Well, I'll be the odd man out here and categorically state that I LOVE tracking with compression - but you'll never hear it. If you can hear the compression, you're not doing it right. And it isn't all about "The Loudness Wars" or Tony's hilarious video, it's about the tone and keeping the things constant enough that need to be constant. That's the way I do it, as well. Totally agree. |
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Dec 13, 2013 12:49:07 GMT -6
When we got 24 bit recording, I stopped tracking with compression and never looked back. When something "needs" compression while tracking, it generally means there is something wrong with what people are hearing or possibly with the arrangement.
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Post by popmann on Dec 13, 2013 14:54:10 GMT -6
Bob's "junior member" status here cracks me up every time I see it. Someone give him my "senior member" and give me "longwinded waxer of gear poetic".  |
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 13, 2013 16:13:26 GMT -6
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Post by popmann on Dec 13, 2013 16:29:55 GMT -6
Love it. Seriously. I AM longwinded...I think it comes from having a math professor for a father. it's not enough to get it right...show your work! |
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Dec 14, 2013 11:34:21 GMT -6
I'm more aware of my juniorship every single day! One of my happiest experiences was working as an assistant to a multiple Oscar-winning sound designer during the 1990s. The endless learning and the incredible people are the reason I still do this.
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Post by popmann on Dec 18, 2013 1:05:33 GMT -6
Bumping this to tell this story. Client says he's tracking a new tune he wants me to mix. He usually "compresses a little on the way in" on his vocals. I say...this time...let's try with you NOT doing that...
Get the tracks...sibilance. I call him...
"hey...did you compress the vocal on the way in anyway?"
"you can HEAR that...man, it was just a little"
(insert an hour of manual deEssing)
I'm telling you--musicians look at compressors as automatic volume controls. Without understanding that they ARE manipulating the envelopes--it's not some kind of slow smooth riding of a fader...it's going to grab in milliseconds--so, JUST enough time for a leading SSS or T to cut through at full volume. I can set it so that doesn't happen. But only if you DON'T screw with the envelope. It's like equating shooting someone when you really wanted to throw a little hunk of lead at them. Same thing being propelled at the person...totally different effect.
It's a subtle thing alone. The consonants are made a touch louder...but, if you've ALSO used an LDC, which will (with the exception of a 67) make them a touch louder...so, now, you've used an LDC that pumps them a few DB. You applied "a little compression" that pumps them a few more--and I still need to sit it in the mix. This doesn't even count the guys with lousy preamps and/or converters that will distort that range transient just a little more still.
Anyway...I just wanted to point out another real world example of "better off without".
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Post by littlesicily on Dec 18, 2013 12:10:26 GMT -6
Bumping this to tell this story. Client says he's tracking a new tune he wants me to mix. He usually "compresses a little on the way in" on his vocals. I say...this time...let's try with you NOT doing that... Get the tracks...sibilance. I call him... "hey...did you compress the vocal on the way in anyway?" "you can HEAR that...man, it was just a little" (insert an hour of manual deEssing) I'm telling you--musicians look at compressors as automatic volume controls. Without understanding that they ARE manipulating the envelopes--it's not some kind of slow smooth riding of a fader...it's going to grab in milliseconds--so, JUST enough time for a leading SSS or T to cut through at full volume. I can set it so that doesn't happen. But only if you DON'T screw with the envelope. It's like equating shooting someone when you really wanted to throw a little hunk of lead at them. Same thing being propelled at the person...totally different effect. It's a subtle thing alone. The consonants are made a touch louder...but, if you've ALSO used an LDC, which will (with the exception of a 67) make them a touch louder...so, now, you've used an LDC that pumps them a few DB. You applied "a little compression" that pumps them a few more--and I still need to sit it in the mix. This doesn't even count the guys with lousy preamps and/or converters that will distort that range transient just a little more still. Anyway...I just wanted to point out another real world example of "better off without". Popmann, I get what you're saying from a technical aspect, really I do. In certain settings I record without compression and agree with your philosophy. But, many artists/vocalists sing way better (IME) with a touch of reverb and compression while recording. Yeah, someone can say, "well, if they can't sing more evenly they are doing something wrong". Have you ever tried to teach an artist (inexperienced new artist even worse) to immediately learn a new way of singing on the spot, oh and by the way, still emote "from the heart"? In my world, (and many other's I'd suspect), we gotta get the best we can out of the artists in a short period of time before they burn out their voice, get frustrated by not hearing themselves well or have to get back on the tour bus. Many artists SING better with compression (hearing themselves more evenly, not crushed) and in the end, the performance, feel and music all benefit. Unfortunately, mix guys like you are way down stream in the process and may inherit an hour of de-essing, but hey... the music comes first and the sibilances are easily remedied. This is my real world example of "better off with". Similar mindset are the singer/songwriters that can't overdub their vocal as well as when they play acoustic guitar and sing simultaneously. I used to try and convince them it'll "sound" better if we record them separately, but 9 times out of 10, the performance suffers for these folks. So, in the end, I deal with a little sacrifice in "quality" and my technical preferences to capture the art in a way that the artist can deliver. |
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Post by Ward on Dec 18, 2013 12:42:50 GMT -6
Using compression properly does not automatically cause sibilance or envelope issues. I never encounter these problems from compression. When sibilance is an issue, the built in Pro Tools De-Ess 3 works fantastic. HF only, center at 6k and use about 7 to 14 db of reduction.
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Post by tonycamphd on Dec 18, 2013 15:34:22 GMT -6
Why can't the headphone mix have the compression? Singers also like reverb, and no one I know prints that? IMO Unless u don't have the quantity of compressors you need to cover tasks after tracking, there is a flaw in the logic of removing useable color from ur sources , this opinion is shared by quite a few beasts in the field, I'm a nobody, but I agree.
But Again, this is art, so to each his own, no one should do it like a Bruce S or Bob O if they have a clear vision of their goal, and the path differs.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Dec 18, 2013 15:45:47 GMT -6
With my Apollo, I can use anything in the mix, and then choose to print if I want. I use the LA2 a little and EMT 140 for the vocalist's headphone mix, sometimes I print a little LA2, and leave the reverb. I bus that in my DAW.
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Post by popmann on Dec 18, 2013 19:17:45 GMT -6
The cue feed isn't the tracking feed here. I'm all analog for the cue....for a number of reasons. One being I can do whatever I want for the player's headphone mix without compromising the track.
Your Apollo is just enabling what TDM systems have done for decades--that cue mix paradigm in digital.
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Post by lolo on Dec 18, 2013 20:08:09 GMT -6
So how did this go for you JK? Hehe
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 18, 2013 20:23:00 GMT -6
$2500 later...
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Post by jsteiger on Dec 18, 2013 20:46:40 GMT -6
Welcome back to analog compression Admin!
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Post by Martin John Butler on Dec 19, 2013 7:53:43 GMT -6
I like the option of printing from the Apollo console, or not. I've barely explored it, but it is rather nice to have. I'll try to pay closer attention to the transients when using compression on the way in Popmann, thanks for posting about that.
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Post by matt on Dec 19, 2013 8:03:09 GMT -6
IMHO, there is something very euphonic about judiciously (and properly) applied compression, whether printed or applied at mix. In my case, I print since I only have one of these beautiful glue machines:  If I had a stack of them, I would probably insert during the mix. What a nice thought. |
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Dec 19, 2013 11:15:44 GMT -6
You really want all analog for the cue. TDM and HDX aren't low enough.
The difference is in how quickly a stellar performance can be achieved. The fact that the performer doesn't notice or complain doesn't mean the job will get done as quickly or as well. People always throw fits when I bring this up because setting up an analog feed can be a real PITA. I don't get to do it as often as I'd like but if I were recording every day rather than mastering, it would be at the top of my list.
What I've done is set up a parallel compressor for vocalists who feel they need to hear compression. What's ironic is that I co-taught a vocal recording workshop a couple times with a great vocal coach in San Francisco. Taking people who had never recorded before, we got by far the best results with no vocal at all in the headphones and even better with them singing to speakers. We did a NAMM show demonstration here a few years ago where we had a couple of the world's top background singers doing a demonstration and I ended it by having them sing with speakers. It was big fun watching everybody's, (including Michael Wagener) jaw hit the floor over how much their singing improved. Yes, one can learn to sing with headphones, but why?
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