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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 2, 2017 18:34:30 GMT -6
Can you describe those differences Dan? Did you get a chance to listen to the mic shootout files I linked earlier? I'm curious if this sounds like a "good" 67 to you. It was just me testing mics, straight into an SSL board, no compression, no EQ, just a pinch of reverb.
https%3A//soundcloud.com/martin-john-butler/mic-shootout-1-u67
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Post by Ward on Jan 2, 2017 18:47:58 GMT -6
On every single case where I have had opportunity to compare the two, the EF806 blows the socks off the EF86 type. Whether it has been in a microphone or an old Vox AC30 or Dr. Z Stangray guitar amplifier. An EF806 just tingles the spine with its sparkly goodness
We should hardly be surprised if there are differences in the sound of the Max Mod using an EF806 in place of an EF86 or a PF86.
Anyone else have thoughts on this?
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Post by dandeurloo on Jan 2, 2017 20:07:58 GMT -6
I have only listened to 2 EF806 compared to really good EF86's. In my experience the EF86 was much better. The EF806 was louder, more congested and less harmonically rich.
I know it is hard to find really nice EF86's that are low noise for mics. Lots of gear uses EF86's so they are getting harder to find.
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Post by bowie on Jan 2, 2017 20:16:53 GMT -6
On every single case where I have had opportunity to compare the two, the EF806 blows the socks off the EF86 type. Whether it has been in a microphone or an old Vox AC30 or Dr. Z Stangray guitar amplifier. An EF806 just tingles the spine with its sparkly goodness We should hardly be surprised if there are differences in the sound of the Max Mod using an EF806 in place of an EF86 or a PF86. Anyone else have thoughts on this? My experience is a bit different. I've found little to no difference between certain Telefunken EF86 and EF806s when the samples are well-selected. In fact, I've seen it referenced by a couple mic techs that Telefunken sometimes labeled EF86 tubes as EF806s. It's only info picked up online, but it wouldn't surprise me. The late, great Oliver A. said on the Neumann forum in regard to a Q about Telefunken EF86 vs EF806s; "The EF806s is pretty much the same than an EF86..." and .. ."The EF804/806s uses all the same mechanical parts like the EF86 only that the mica wafer were heat treaded and different cathode nickel was used. Soundwise EF86/804 and the 'S' are the same, were for the 'S' version a better noise figure is practical build in."I've pretty much experienced the same thing with the similar EF804 and EF804s used in the V72/V76. The 's' is more likely to be low noise, but not by a huge margin, and they sound the same when they are the same version (there are a couple different anode material versions of the Tele EF804(s) and EF86 tubes). When buying blind, it used to make sense to get the 806s because they were more likely to be mic-worthy. These days, it's such a gamble with either type because the market for Tele EF86/806s is a mess, and there's a increasingly high number of used/faked/B-stock EF806 out there. I tend to find good sources and buy in bulk but even I get burned sometimes and have to take the hit. The EF806s is getting so expensive that I recommend the standard Tele EF86 when people are shopping with me. I say all that with the disclaimer that I sell tubes. But, FWIW, that advice goes against my interests because I could profit more on the 806s. I just think a well-selected Tele EF86 is already expensive enough and, when well-selected, is an equal performer. So, I say, save the money. As far as your experience, I won't say it's wrong or anything like that but I'll add some food for thought; there are a couple versions of Telefunken EF86 that sound different, and the sound quality can vary quite a bit depending on condition. There are also Telefunkens that are Tele in name only, but were made by other companies and branded for Telefunken (sometimes legitimately, sometimes not). A lot of factors come into play. I don't want it to sound like I'm discrediting your personal opinion and experience though, I absolutely respect that. |
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Post by dandeurloo on Jan 2, 2017 20:21:27 GMT -6
I trust Bowie!
I buy all my tubes from him because he knows. Thanks for the post!
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Post by drsax on Jan 2, 2017 20:53:02 GMT -6
If anyone wants to take a listen to some different tubes in the Max Mod, here you go... seven different vintage Telefunken tubes - PF86, EF86 & EF806s tubes. My test was unscientific. Did this right when I got the Max Mod. It's just a talking mic check purposely done about an inch from the mic without a pop filter to capture all the ugly plosives and sibilance. I do have a fairly sibilant voice even though it's deep. This is straight through a Great River MP500-NV mic pre with no processing whatsoever. Files are 24-bit, 44.1kHz WAV format all inside one zip file. I also included a file of the Original u87ai in the test as well so you can hear the difference between the stock mic and the Max Mod. There are some gain differences between the tubes. I'd be curious to know which of these tubes are your favorite www.dropbox.com/s/n4zd7lws93vfdeg/Max%20Mod%20U87ai%20to%20U67%20Tube%20Test.zip?dl=0 |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 2, 2017 20:58:07 GMT -6
Always thought vintage 67s were the perfect mic. I always had a nerd-boner for a 251 - and with the Upton (gently tweaked by Shannon) I feel completely satisfied. But a vintage 67 still haunts me like an LSU national championship. Maybe one day.
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Post by joseph on Jan 2, 2017 21:27:15 GMT -6
The latest samples from Pianolando on GS sound damn good. Rest before that not so much.
I wonder if f the TLMs occasionally get lower quality capsules than the 87ais.
Of course capsule variability is a factor, regardless.
I suppose going on what Klaus has said, it may be impossible for Max to truly replicate the transformer winding and the Neumann tube selection process.
The latter seems remediable, the former maybe not, but my guess is you can still end up with a great mic as long as the capsule is a good one.
Ragan has good ears, he has proved it in every Slate thread, ha.
I don't put any stock in the other clones, and aside from the ioaudio, for a non hyped currently made condenser vibe would only consider a Brauner Valvet X or my favorite the Josephson C715.
Until next time I have a little dough, sigh...
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Post by dandeurloo on Jan 2, 2017 21:32:08 GMT -6
The C715 sounds cool! I borrowed one for a few session and it was a really great mic.
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Post by Ward on Jan 2, 2017 22:52:17 GMT -6
On every single case where I have had opportunity to compare the two, the EF806 blows the socks off the EF86 type. Whether it has been in a microphone or an old Vox AC30 or Dr. Z Stangray guitar amplifier. An EF806 just tingles the spine with its sparkly goodness We should hardly be surprised if there are differences in the sound of the Max Mod using an EF806 in place of an EF86 or a PF86. Anyone else have thoughts on this? My experience is a bit different. I've found little to no difference between certain Telefunken EF86 and EF806s when the samples are well-selected. In fact, I've seen it referenced by a couple mic techs that Telefunken sometimes labeled EF86 tubes as EF806s. It's only info picked up online, but it wouldn't surprise me. The late, great Oliver A. said on the Neumann forum in regard to a Q about Telefunken EF86 vs EF806s; "The EF806s is pretty much the same than an EF86..." and .. ."The EF804/806s uses all the same mechanical parts like the EF86 only that the mica wafer were heat treaded and different cathode nickel was used. Soundwise EF86/804 and the 'S' are the same, were for the 'S' version a better noise figure is practical build in."I've pretty much experienced the same thing with the similar EF804 and EF804s used in the V72/V76. The 's' is more likely to be low noise, but not by a huge margin, and they sound the same when they are the same version (there are a couple different anode material versions of the Tele EF804(s) and EF86 tubes). When buying blind, it used to make sense to get the 806s because they were more likely to be mic-worthy. These days, it's such a gamble with either type because the market for Tele EF86/806s is a mess, and there's a increasingly high number of used/faked/B-stock EF806 out there. I tend to find good sources and buy in bulk but even I get burned sometimes and have to take the hit. The EF806s is getting so expensive that I recommend the standard Tele EF86 when people are shopping with me. I say all that with the disclaimer that I sell tubes. But, FWIW, that advice goes against my interests because I could profit more on the 806s. I just think a well-selected Tele EF86 is already expensive enough and, when well-selected, is an equal performer. So, I say, save the money. As far as your experience, I won't say it's wrong or anything like that but I'll add some food for thought; there are a couple versions of Telefunken EF86 that sound different, and the sound quality can vary quite a bit depending on condition. There are also Telefunkens that are Tele in name only, but were made by other companies and branded for Telefunken (sometimes legitimately, sometimes not). A lot of factors come into play. I don't want it to sound like I'm discrediting your personal opinion and experience though, I absolutely respect that. How odd, I could have sworn I bought my batches of EF86s and EF806s off you, Christian. |
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Post by bowie on Jan 2, 2017 23:56:59 GMT -6
My experience is a bit different. I've found little to no difference between certain Telefunken EF86 and EF806s when the samples are well-selected. In fact, I've seen it referenced by a couple mic techs that Telefunken sometimes labeled EF86 tubes as EF806s. It's only info picked up online, but it wouldn't surprise me. The late, great Oliver A. said on the Neumann forum in regard to a Q about Telefunken EF86 vs EF806s; "The EF806s is pretty much the same than an EF86..." and .. ."The EF804/806s uses all the same mechanical parts like the EF86 only that the mica wafer were heat treaded and different cathode nickel was used. Soundwise EF86/804 and the 'S' are the same, were for the 'S' version a better noise figure is practical build in."I've pretty much experienced the same thing with the similar EF804 and EF804s used in the V72/V76. The 's' is more likely to be low noise, but not by a huge margin, and they sound the same when they are the same version (there are a couple different anode material versions of the Tele EF804(s) and EF86 tubes). When buying blind, it used to make sense to get the 806s because they were more likely to be mic-worthy. These days, it's such a gamble with either type because the market for Tele EF86/806s is a mess, and there's a increasingly high number of used/faked/B-stock EF806 out there. I tend to find good sources and buy in bulk but even I get burned sometimes and have to take the hit. The EF806s is getting so expensive that I recommend the standard Tele EF86 when people are shopping with me. I say all that with the disclaimer that I sell tubes. But, FWIW, that advice goes against my interests because I could profit more on the 806s. I just think a well-selected Tele EF86 is already expensive enough and, when well-selected, is an equal performer. So, I say, save the money. As far as your experience, I won't say it's wrong or anything like that but I'll add some food for thought; there are a couple versions of Telefunken EF86 that sound different, and the sound quality can vary quite a bit depending on condition. There are also Telefunkens that are Tele in name only, but were made by other companies and branded for Telefunken (sometimes legitimately, sometimes not). A lot of factors come into play. I don't want it to sound like I'm discrediting your personal opinion and experience though, I absolutely respect that. How odd, I could have sworn I bought my batches of EF86s and EF806s off you, Christian. Quite possibly, but I usually steer people off of the EF806s (in the last few years at least) simply because I think they're excessive in price when an equally good EF86 can be had for much less. I do keep both though so you may be right there. Hard to keep track sometimes. |
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Post by ChaseUTB on Jan 3, 2017 1:45:17 GMT -6
Always thought vintage 67s were the perfect mic. I always had a nerd-boner for a 251 - and with the Upton (gently tweaked by Shannon) I feel completely satisfied. But a vintage 67 still haunts me like an LSU national championship. Maybe one day. what did Shannon do to your 251 sir? |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 3, 2017 8:47:24 GMT -6
Dang drsax, that's a great post, thanks for taking the time to do it. Tubes are such a shot in the dark, to be able to listen to a bunch of them in the same mic is a rare stroke of luck.
I'd choose #3 (86), and then #2 (06). I actually liked #1, (I'm a sucker for bass boost), but it was noisier, # 3 had the best overall balance to me. The 806's were a little softer. Most were good, but the stock and one of the others had too much of that megaphone tone for my taste. It's amazing to know that once you get a Max Mod done, there's one more step, find the right tube. With the tube change, it's a different mic. And I must say, it sounds fantastic!
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Post by ragan on Jan 3, 2017 13:28:07 GMT -6
If anyone wants to take a listen to some different tubes in the Max Mod, here you go... seven different vintage Telefunken tubes - PF86, EF86 & EF806s tubes. My test was unscientific. Did this right when I got the Max Mod. It's just a talking mic check purposely done about an inch from the mic without a pop filter to capture all the ugly plosives and sibilance. I do have a fairly sibilant voice even though it's deep. This is straight through a Great River MP500-NV mic pre with no processing whatsoever. Files are 24-bit, 44.1kHz WAV format all inside one zip file. I also included a file of the Original u87ai in the test as well so you can hear the difference between the stock mic and the Max Mod. There are some gain differences between the tubes. I'd be curious to know which of these tubes are your favorite www.dropbox.com/s/n4zd7lws93vfdeg/Max%20Mod%20U87ai%20to%20U67%20Tube%20Test.zip?dl=0Thanks for posting, that's really helpful. I actually like the PF86 that comes with the MaxMod the best. |
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Post by drsax on Jan 3, 2017 13:33:20 GMT -6
Dang drsax, that's a great post, thanks for taking the time to do it. Tubes are such a shot in the dark, to be able to listen to a bunch of them in the same mic is a rare stroke of luck. I'd choose #3 (86), and then #2 (06). I actually liked #1, (I'm a sucker for bass boost), but it was noisier, # 3 had the best overall balance to me. The 806's were a little softer. Most were good, but the stock and one of the others had too much of that megaphone tone for my taste. It's amazing to know that once you get a Max Mod done, there's one more step, find the right tube. With the tube change, it's a different mic. And I must say, it sounds fantastic! Glad it was helpful for you man! It was eye opening for me as well. I favor #2 & 3 as well. I kept #2 in the mic for now as I think it is very refined and even with the classic tele EF86 sound. It also handled the plosives and sibilants in a very uniformed way. I like the larger than life lows and the sweetness on top of 2 & 3.. If cats are looking for that well known Neumann mid push, I suppose these particular 806's and PF86 are nice in that regard. In the end, I'd gladly use any most of these... but not #1. It's just way too noisy although it has a ballsy sound. It's either a bad tube, or a good tube gone bad  |
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Post by EmRR on Jan 3, 2017 14:21:15 GMT -6
As has been said, unused tube noise tends to quieten down with use. Could be worth burning the noisy one for 2 days and listening again.
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Post by drsax on Jan 3, 2017 14:46:10 GMT -6
As has been said, unused tube noise tends to quieten down with use. Could be worth burning the noisy one for 2 days and listening again. Thanks. That's a great suggestion. That tube is a used tube... but I'll still give that a shot. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 3, 2017 15:18:58 GMT -6
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Post by ragan on Jan 3, 2017 15:21:48 GMT -6
Yeah I'm tempted to grab the nickel body tube and black badge from Neumann. I'm definitely that vain, just a matter of whether I can spend a couple hundred bucks on it. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 3, 2017 15:52:02 GMT -6
I know. I'm vain too. How much is it from Neumann? And can you get a silver body if you own a tlm67? This was a really expensive option (with no mod) from zen pro
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Post by ragan on Jan 3, 2017 16:04:49 GMT -6
I know. I'm vain too. How much is it from Neumann? And can you get a silver body if you own a tlm67? This was a really expensive option (with no mod) from zen pro It's around $200 for the nickel body tube with a purple badge. They have those in stock. You can special order one with a black badge but it takes longer. It's like another $20 or something. Or you can get the nickel/purple combo and just the black badge and swap it yourself (the black badges by themselves are in stock, not big wait). You just take the body tube off and heat the glue under the badge up from the inside with a hair dryer/heat gun. There are two little nubs that stick through to the inside and once you heat up the glue you can pull the badge off from the outside. And yeah, the TLM67 is the same body tube with a different paint job (and that stupid George Neumann face badge). Swap in a nickel body tube and it's identical to a U87/67. |
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Post by ragan on Jan 3, 2017 16:07:03 GMT -6
Although I don't think you can use that intergral U67 mount with the MaxMod unless you wire it yourself? I think the XLR is integrated into that mount?
Not totally sure, never had one of those mounts in my hands.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 3, 2017 16:59:43 GMT -6
The teuchel looking connecter looks badass too.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 3, 2017 17:00:08 GMT -6
So zen pro is charging like $1000 for all of that.
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Post by EmRR on Jan 3, 2017 17:05:51 GMT -6
They have a nice 'lazy buyer tax' on that full package.
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