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Post by scumbum on Nov 28, 2016 13:03:37 GMT -6
Cool video of Alan Parsons re-creating the Dark Side of The Moon drum sound . As a side note Alan Parsons doesn't like compression on drums or the mix buss , or even much in Mastering . Glen Johns doesn't like compression on drums as well .
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Post by ragan on Nov 28, 2016 13:36:28 GMT -6
Damn, I just watched that like a kid in a candy store and then....we don't get to hear it? ?
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Post by rowmat on Nov 28, 2016 13:57:38 GMT -6
According to engineer Tony Platt, he didn't compress the drums on AC/DC's 'Back in Black' either.
Snare mic used on BIB was a Neumann KM86 versus a KM84 on DSOTM.
No doubt recording to tape helped.
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Post by timcampbell on Nov 28, 2016 14:57:19 GMT -6
As we used to say," Tape is the best compressor." Recording drums to tape I and everyone I knew would peg the meters. It was such a thick, wonderful sound. It took me a long time to find compressors that could emulate that.
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Post by scumbum on Nov 28, 2016 16:08:27 GMT -6
Even today using digital he still only uses a small amount of compression on bass and vocals . If you research his working method he doesn't really use any compression , even in Mastering . He will use a brickwall limiter for the peaks in mastering but thats it .
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Post by wiz on Nov 28, 2016 16:52:47 GMT -6
Even today using digital he still only uses a small amount of compression on bass and vocals . If you research his working method he doesn't really use any compression , even in Mastering . He will use a brickwall limiter for the peaks in mastering but thats it . Most of that is whats recorded.. by that, I mean the skill of the player and engineer.... If you tried that in my world.... 8) cheers Wiz
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Post by illacov on Nov 28, 2016 18:29:53 GMT -6
As we used to say," Tape is the best compressor." Recording drums to tape I and everyone I knew would peg the meters. It was such a thick, wonderful sound. It took me a long time to find compressors that could emulate that. I've actually read people claiming that this is an inappropriate way to use a tape machine. Growing up in the recording world using a 2" 24 track taught me otherwise. With tape you could totally just slam the snare to tape and get all the oomph you needed without incurring the dreaded hi hat creep from hell that broadband compression almost guarantees. I don't track snares with compression to digital because of this. Thanks -L.
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Post by Ward on Nov 29, 2016 7:28:03 GMT -6
When it comes to popular music forms, you ALWAYS slam the tape!! It's part of the 'Studio Sound'. And like timcampbell says, tape is the best compression there is.
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Post by illacov on Nov 29, 2016 10:49:48 GMT -6
When it comes to popular music forms, you ALWAYS slam the tape!! It's part of the 'Studio Sound'. And like timcampbell says, tape is the best compression there is. That's the whole point. I've seen plugin developers who sell tape plugins say that this is not the way you actually used a real tape deck, back in the days. I'll let you fill in the blanks on that. I always slammed the inputs (especially on drums) to tape. It was how you got the glory out of the deck. Thanks -L.
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Post by scumbum on Nov 29, 2016 12:03:55 GMT -6
But think about this ,
Then how come all the older albums are so much lower in volume ? If everyone was slamming the tape , then that would produce louder albums ? All the older stuff is way lower in volume and has dynamics .
It seems the older guys like Alan are after an honest capture of the artist , their music and staying out of the way .
Maybe they started slamming the tape in the late 80's , but before that I don't think it happened much or we would have louder albums back then .
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Post by jjinvegas on Nov 29, 2016 12:50:07 GMT -6
Slamming the tape is a relative term. The ballistic meters in use back when were too slow to really tell you how hot the drums were, what looked like -5 on the meter was probably 15 db hotter. Obviously these people opining about how you were supposed to use a tape recorder didn't consider this. As for louder records, distortion beddy beddy good on Ludwig with coated Ambassador, not as sweet on final mixes. If you ever heard the playback from a 3M M79 with 16 trk heads, with glowing transformers sweet FET Vaseline on the lens, spinning Scotch 206 and just burning holes in the mylar, well, things were far more fun back then......
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Post by timcampbell on Nov 29, 2016 13:18:11 GMT -6
Scumbum I can't tell if you're putting us on. Just to be clear in case someone DOES misunderstand this, the volume of a finished piece of music has nothing to do with how loud it was recorded The technique of hitting the tape hard originated to overcome the noise floor of tape before noise reduction.
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Post by Guitar on Nov 29, 2016 17:45:20 GMT -6
This just makes me want to listen to Dark Side Of The Moon... so I'm gonna.
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Post by joseph on Nov 29, 2016 17:57:15 GMT -6
repforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,10844.0.html The above discussion is really worth a read. Not everyone agrees that one should hit tape so hard, because it fucks up transients. Pegging meter is often fine on steady state sounds, but some people see tape as a hifi recording medium and want to avoid degrading the source. I for one don't like the sound of slammed tape on a snare drum at all. Can be cool on cymbals, however. CN Fletcher made endless forum posts about how he'd hit different instruments at different VU levels. Worth digging up. Oh, and Bob www.gearslutz.com/board/2411481-post24.html
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Post by illacov on Nov 29, 2016 23:26:37 GMT -6
You do realize that almost 90 percent of the snare sounds from these classic records are saturated? That heavy low thud that was the classic 70s snare sound has gobs of transient shaping tape compression and saturation all over it. I just call it splat.
Regarding the Motown references, what do your ears tell you? I understand their intentions but the actual releases were pretty saturated, possibly because of their consoles or the tape decks in use. This is in no way a knock against them or Bob O. I think those records sound fantastic and they were part of my upbringing.
Thanks -L.
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Post by ragan on Nov 29, 2016 23:42:12 GMT -6
I'M STILL REALLY MAD WE DIDN'T GET TO HEAR THE TRACKS IN THE VIDEO
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Post by joseph on Nov 30, 2016 11:52:18 GMT -6
You do realize that almost 90 percent of the snare sounds from these classic records are saturated? That heavy low thud that was the classic 70s snare sound has gobs of transient shaping tape compression and saturation all over it. I just call it splat. Regarding the Motown references, what do your ears tell you? I understand their intentions but the actual releases were pretty saturated, possibly because of their consoles or the tape decks in use. This is in no way a knock against them or Bob O. I think those records sound fantastic and they were part of my upbringing. Thanks -L. Read what I said, not the drum sounds I personally like. Liking a record is not the same thing as liking a production. I don't like that 70s sound, or a snare or kick overdampened and dulled to hell, nor do a lot of people (Albini for one). Doesn't mean I don't like any records with that sound. I want drums to sound like a kit in a room, and there are many ways to get there. Moreover my own opinion is the splat you talk about has become a stupid pastiche. I don't like saturation plugins and that fuzzy garage rock low end either. As far as Motown, that's an oversimplification. Hitting tape hard on purpose (meaning snare hits metering in red, rather than under -6VU) does not sound the same as not using a mic pad. That's what you hear on the drums on Motown recodings, plus bass saturation prior to their move to 16 track. And possibly a poor non-mono cd master which exacerbates the distortion. In other studios of the era, you had tube pres with massive headroom. Another big factor is that drummers back then, recording with an ensemble rather than in isolation, did not play at the volumes they do now, which makes dynamics easier to preserve. And the shells were dampened more carefully. Back in Black, no compression, btw.
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Post by kilroyrock on Nov 30, 2016 12:11:23 GMT -6
So for us little guys, could I achieve a similar tape compression sound by using the tape compression stuff in say, mcDSP's analog channel? Cause I really like what it does to my bus.
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Post by rocinante on Nov 30, 2016 12:45:00 GMT -6
Okay they are also using Neumann's on the snare and other parts of the kit and Dark side of the moon was mixed (and partially recorded) on an EMI TG12345 which would have a significant impact on the sound. You dont mix on a Tg12345 if your trying to make a transparent record. IIRC they pushed the meters on the desk as well. I think it also took many sessions over several years in between touring. The dap motown stuff is cool but i personally am more intrigued by a solid production pulling out all the tricks. What I always felt was the coolest thing about Dark Side of the Moon was it set the next precedent of what a studio could do. They were doing things during those sessions that really made the album have an extra dimension.
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Post by rocinante on Nov 30, 2016 12:48:20 GMT -6
Also Massey is my favorite producer.
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Post by bradd on Nov 30, 2016 14:02:17 GMT -6
Not only do they not have any sound clips, but they really don't show where the mics are placed when he is finished. Is that KM84 going over the ride?
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Post by rocinante on Nov 30, 2016 14:26:51 GMT -6
Yeah its kind of a tease. Like that pbs special on recording which almost showed producers doing stuff. Id buy clips of footage from DSOTM too. A good one though is Butch Vig discussing Nirvana's Nevermind. He actually gets into the details.
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Post by scumbum on Nov 30, 2016 15:50:26 GMT -6
Yeah its kind of a tease. Like that pbs special on recording which almost showed producers doing stuff. Id buy clips of footage from DSOTM too. A good one though is Butch Vig discussing Nirvana's Nevermind. He actually gets into the details. Hey could you post that , I'd like to read it .
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Post by rowmat on Nov 30, 2016 17:21:03 GMT -6
The two consecutive snare hits just prior to the commencement of Clare Torry's incredible vocal on 'The Great Gig in the Sky' really highlight the snare sound on DSOTM.
Neumann KM84 > TG12345 console > Studer A80 2" 16 track recorder > EMT140 plate reverb... fantastic!!
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 30, 2016 17:36:05 GMT -6
So for us little guys, could I achieve a similar tape compression sound by using the tape compression stuff in say, mcDSP's analog channel? Cause I really like what it does to my bus. I recorded to tape since I was 15. I don't recall any "slamming" of the tape, although no one worried if it hit the red a little now and then. I paid more attention to playing then, so it might have escaped me. I also had my own private small studio for doing music for radio and TV for a decade, and I must have completed 200 local spots there, before selling all my gear. My point is, my ears know tape when I hear it and the only plug that actually reminds me of tape is the new UAD Oxide. I've tried a dozen others, many were mushy, and in truth, they're basically EQ's. Click on a preset and it shifts the overall tone. So if you can use the UAD platform, go for Oxide, and you're in the right direction.
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