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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2016 9:49:56 GMT -6
Great post JJ. Paragraphs next time please ;-) Yeah - great thread, loving it .....
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Dec 4, 2016 11:57:58 GMT -6
Tom Dowd loaned us his 1" alignment tape in 1964. He told me we were the first to use an 8 track for overdubbing because Les Paul's had big problems that he'd managed to get around for Atlantic. (They'd bought the machine in order to be able to do stereo remixes of their live sessions.) John Windt, one of our shop guys, told me he'd told Les about our 8 track at an AES show and Les got so mad he almost slugged him. We invented automatic input switching because we couldn't fit the electronics in our control room.
In 20-20 hindsight Mike McLean, my boss, and Berry Gordy both think we helped ruin popular music!
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Post by jjinvegas on Dec 4, 2016 12:12:29 GMT -6
I aggravated quite a few people last year over at the slut site when I posited that with the fiftieth anniversary of Frank Sinatra's "September Of My Years" recorded by Mr. Putnam at United and Western, it has all been downhill since then.......
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Post by timcampbell on Dec 4, 2016 13:51:12 GMT -6
Bob from reading your posts you're not refuting that tape does act as a compressor when a hot signal is recorded to it. I admit I started recording later than you and never at your level of expertise. I played on my first record in 1969 and set up my first studio in 1972. Every studio I've worked in from that time has used this phenomenon to greater or lesser degree. Rock drum sounds have particularily benefitted from this. Funny, I've never recorded piano that way and tambourine turns into pure distortion if recorded too loud to tape. I'm sure jazz and classical engineers would shudder at going too hot to tape but I have seen engineers at Danmarksradio use this often.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Dec 4, 2016 14:04:44 GMT -6
Bob from reading your posts you're not refuting that tape does act as a compressor when a hot signal is recorded to it. I admit I started recording later than you and never at your level of expertise. I played on my first record in 1969 and set up my first studio in 1972. Every studio I've worked in from that time has used this phenomenon to greater or lesser degree. Rock drum sounds have particularily benefitted from this. Funny, I've never recorded piano that way and tambourine turns into pure distortion if recorded too loud to tape. I'm sure jazz and classical engineers would shudder at going too hot to tape but I have seen engineers at Danmarksradio use this often. Tim I think a lot of us just considered the compression a part of the sound of tape, it wasn't something we even really thought about. Also even most big rooms didn't have more than say 6-8 ch of compression till the days of the SSL!
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Post by illacov on Dec 4, 2016 14:40:19 GMT -6
Bob from reading your posts you're not refuting that tape does act as a compressor when a hot signal is recorded to it. I admit I started recording later than you and never at your level of expertise. I played on my first record in 1969 and set up my first studio in 1972. Every studio I've worked in from that time has used this phenomenon to greater or lesser degree. Rock drum sounds have particularily benefitted from this. Funny, I've never recorded piano that way and tambourine turns into pure distortion if recorded too loud to tape. I'm sure jazz and classical engineers would shudder at going too hot to tape but I have seen engineers at Danmarksradio use this often. Tim I think a lot of us just considered the compression a part of the sound of tape, it wasn't something we even really thought about. Also even most big rooms didn't have more than say 6-8 ch of compression till the days of the SSL! Therein lies my point. Gabriel Roth of Daptone talks about ignoring the meters during tracking to tape and gets it to where it sounds good with your ears, on machines like a 440 and a Teac 8516. During playback he'd listen to a track in solo and realize he accomplished way more saturation/distortion (plus compression) than he thought he'd heard during tracking. I personally always felt that what made Motowns recordings gel together WAS the distortion/saturation. Maybe it didn't come from the deck, but that fuzzy delicious musical magic was my motivation to try the same things with my tape machines. And dammit, it gave me the same results. In solo they sounded pretty wild, but together in context it was damn good. Thanks -L.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Dec 4, 2016 14:59:36 GMT -6
Tim I think a lot of us just considered the compression a part of the sound of tape, it wasn't something we even really thought about. Also even most big rooms didn't have more than say 6-8 ch of compression till the days of the SSL! Therein lies my point. Gabriel Roth of Daptone talks about ignoring the meters during tracking to tape and gets it to where it sounds good with your ears, on machines like a 440 and a Teac 8516. During playback he'd listen to a track in solo and realize he accomplished way more saturation/distortion (plus compression) than he thought he'd heard during tracking. I personally always felt that what made Motowns recordings gel together WAS the distortion/saturation. Maybe it didn't come from the deck, but that fuzzy delicious musical magic was my motivation to try the same things with my tape machines. And dammit, it gave me the same results. In solo they sounded pretty wild, but together in context it was damn good. Thanks -L. Yeah But using the 8516 and 440 in the same sentence is some kind of Audio sin! Between the thin track width and the fact that I have never seen a 8516 stay in alignment, let's just say it had a distortion all its own you either love or hate! Also in analog we were not yet replacing every drum hit, so you had that gel of everything happening in the same room at the same time. You either used bleed to your advantage & made it sound like a kit, or as time went by and input and track count increased, you fought it, trying to make it sound like a drum machine.
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Post by illacov on Dec 4, 2016 15:18:21 GMT -6
Therein lies my point. Gabriel Roth of Daptone talks about ignoring the meters during tracking to tape and gets it to where it sounds good with your ears, on machines like a 440 and a Teac 8516. During playback he'd listen to a track in solo and realize he accomplished way more saturation/distortion (plus compression) than he thought he'd heard during tracking. I personally always felt that what made Motowns recordings gel together WAS the distortion/saturation. Maybe it didn't come from the deck, but that fuzzy delicious musical magic was my motivation to try the same things with my tape machines. And dammit, it gave me the same results. In solo they sounded pretty wild, but together in context it was damn good. Thanks -L. Yeah But using the 8516 and 440 in the same sentence is some kind of Audio sin! Between the thin track width and the fact that I have never seen a 8516 stay in alignment, let's just say it had a distortion all its own you either love or hate! Also in analog we were not yet replacing every drum hit, so you had that gel of everything happening in the same room at the same time. You either used bleed to your advantage & made it sound like a kit, or as time went by and input and track count increased, you fought it, trying to make it sound like a drum machine. Thats my point brotha. If you listen to Sharon Jones (RIP) and The Dap Kings, its amazing what they accomplished with her, the players and the tech. But it makes sense! Those Tascams and Teacs were and are the shit. I based Zulu's ProFi deck on my Teac and Tascam machines because they are so tapey and musical. I know some people think Daptone sounds cartoonish but listen to their stuff and then fire up some Sam and Dave or Percy Sledge, it makes sense. I see all that the legends like Bob O and others say about using tape, I also got guys who are legends saying the opposite from my own career but what they are saying and what I have as my musical DNA (growing up listening to Motown for example on Vinyl, cassette and the first pressing CDs) that dirt was always there. Maybe the source of the dirt needs to be disclosed? It can't all be my mom's stereo on cinder blocks, cuz the grit stayed from my childhood to right now if I go pull it up on streaming. Bob O. ? BTW, the drum clips on the website sound great but I think they'd really pull you back in time better if they had some tape involved. The cymbals especially jump out and sounding different, snares too. Its worth noting that those older recordings had the drums lower in the mix but they had more body. The kick for example is buried on DSOTM but on the loop library example its up but lacks the maple syrup thickness. Not a knock against AP or the drummer, I think thats more about the digital than anything. Thanks -L.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Dec 4, 2016 16:17:59 GMT -6
What's more amazing were The Dap Kings live shows. I don't think their recordings really did the band justice. I have fantasies of Al Schmitt recording them.
The "glue" at Motown was the live 12+ piece rhythm section, with no headphones on anybody but the drummers and the organ player in the back room. The bleed in the room was really clean. Drummers played much softer with more tone and dynamics.
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Post by wiz on Dec 4, 2016 16:24:40 GMT -6
What's more amazing were The Dap Kings live shows. I don't think their recordings really did the band justice. I have fantasies of Al Schmitt recording them. The "glue" at Motown was the live 12+ piece rhythm section, with no headphones on anybody but the drummers and the organ player in the back room. The bleed in the room was really clean. Drummers played much softer with more tone and dynamics. Its interesting. When my (Old) band rehearsed here in my one room studio... we did it with acoustic guitars.. a tiny ampeg bass amp and rods on the drums, and I muted all the drums and cymbals with cut up t shirts. Myself and the other singer just sang without microphones/monitors. You could have held a conversation thats how soft it was. It was a great way to rehearse... I always wanted to record the band like that.. never did.... cheers Wiz
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Post by Martin John Butler on Dec 4, 2016 19:38:01 GMT -6
When I first began playing guitar, I remember the Youngbloods had a song, "Get Together" that sounded great on my family's hi fi. It was probably one of those old Emerson consoles. My best friend had a gorgeous 300 watt Macintosh amp and preamp, a fine turntable and these big ass Ohm F speakers. When we played that same record on his system, it sucked. We both felt the same way, something about the record gelled, glued, vibed, or something, so much so, that it was an entirely different experience listening on the console.
So, back then I had no idea why this would be so, but from my perspective now, clearly the distortion the console had was a charming one. I've also found it not so easy finding a pleasing distortion on my tracks.
Now I have to go and listen to the Dark Side of the Moon Drums, just to get back on topic.
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Post by winetree on Dec 4, 2016 19:59:54 GMT -6
I've got 2 stereo tube home hi-fi consoles. The ones that are like 6 feet long, that look like furniture, with a built in turntable, AM, Fm radio, and a 100 watt tube amp. Everytime I play a Record Album on them I say " That's the way an Album should sound." I feel the same way when I listen to my HH Scott Tube Stereo.
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Post by scumbum on Dec 5, 2016 0:00:45 GMT -6
I've got 2 stereo tube home hi-fi consoles. The ones that are like 6 feet long, that look like furniture, with a built in turntable, AM, Fm radio, and a 100 watt tube amp. Everytime I play a Record Album on them I say " That's the way an Album should sound." I feel the same way when I listen to my HH Scott Tube Stereo. I had one of those . It was my grand fathers who bought it brand new in the 60's . When I moved a year ago I didn't keep it . I should have .
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Post by Ward on Dec 5, 2016 7:59:21 GMT -6
I've got 2 stereo tube home hi-fi consoles. The ones that are like 6 feet long, that look like furniture, with a built in turntable, AM, Fm radio, and a 100 watt tube amp. Everytime I play a Record Album on them I say " That's the way an Album should sound." I feel the same way when I listen to my HH Scott Tube Stereo. I had one of those . It was my grand fathers who bought it brand new in the 60's . When I moved a year ago I didn't keep it . I should have . YOU THINK?? (sorry, not being intentionally cheeky/saucy/impertinent... just reacting with a little shock)
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Post by ChaseUTB on Dec 5, 2016 22:03:23 GMT -6
My grandma had one in her basement with carved Indian rice wood styles and dark stain maybe maple or birch. What tubes power these beasts and they do sound "warm" and "full"
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Post by jjinvegas on Dec 6, 2016 0:32:50 GMT -6
I blame the family stereo/radio/television for my life-long fascination with audio. It was a Magnavox/Phillips, but actually made by Telefunken with fifteen inch woofer and a horn, obviously tube since i am ancient, and the thing just glowed. From Beat the Meatles to Yes Fragile that thing got a total workout. But Ray Charles "Modern Sounds In Country And Western" was the one I recall most fondly.....honorable mention Sly Stone's Greatest Hits...
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Post by scumbum on Dec 6, 2016 10:23:49 GMT -6
If you got a picture of your Hi Fi , post it up ! Heres the one I had .
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