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Post by kilroyrock on May 27, 2016 8:32:01 GMT -6
So there's the ITB, OTB, HYBRID arguments.
But then there are people like me who started their recording career on a TASCAM 4 track > SoundBlaster creative with N-Track world in 1998-99...
I have never known what it's like to work in an OTB world and probably never will. I get intrigued and am working on a hybrid 2 bus + ITB method. I am building a good set of pre's to supplement my generic interface pre's for big duties. I understand why people do one vs the other vs the other, but realistically.. If I was to actually mix a record completely OTB, with all this make believe AD/DA I'd need; what would the gear be I would need?
Would I focus on having a desk with eq's, 2 or 3 mono compressors and 3-4 stereo compressors? 1 or 2 stereo eq's as well? Ignore the recall problems, let's focus on making a modern mix. How many reverbs? Delays?
I am trying to put in focus what it would be like to purchase that with today's money, maybe not cheaply, but more in the DIY/Prosumer cost point, where you could do a modern record radio friendly non-EDM record - say Muse or Foo Fighters or Mumford & Sons.
I am imagining needing 3-4 1176's, an LA-2a, a stereo pair of LA-3A's (thanks to GAP and warm audio this fits the pro-sumer cost level), don classics 250 eq's for a GML 8200, 2 EQP-WA's
How realistic would it be to actually purchase all of this? Would it be something you would even do? I'm figuring 20-30k in units alone to make 1k of plugins on Black Friday, with the infinite instatiations..
Is this why the hybrid method was born? best of both worlds? Are we all chasing ghosts here? This feels heavy for a Friday.
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Post by jcoutu1 on May 27, 2016 9:28:25 GMT -6
The biggest thing is having a desk. I could be totally out of the box (other than filters I guess) with my mix rig, but I choose to work hybrid.
I have a desk full of eq, 24 channels of outboard compressors, 12 channels of outboard eq (plus 8 channels of tilt eq and 4 channels of AirBand), a TC stereo reverb, and 2 TC delay units. Smoking deals are your friend.
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Post by ragan on May 27, 2016 10:16:01 GMT -6
I fantasize about this too. Funnily enepugh, I also started on a Tascam 4-track about that same time.
With a decent desk, a pair of WA76, a pair of GAP COMP-3a, a WA2a, a couple ART Pro VLA II (giving you 4 channels) an RNC, an RNLA, maybe a couple DBX 160___, I think you get do some really groovy stuff. I think about it a lot actually.
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Post by drbill on May 27, 2016 10:23:37 GMT -6
No desk needed IMO. Personally, I have a 120 input automated D&R Orion X (fantastic console) in storage. I do not feel the "need" or desire to install it now. It is awesome for tracking, but for mixing, my new hybrid setup is significantly more fun, quicker and gets me from point A to point B faster and more efficiently. To do OTB with a console and outboard you need probably $200k investment IMO. At least that's what I would need if starting from scratch. It might be able to be done for $120k depending on your needs, but it is an expensive proposition to do "right" and have enough to cover whatever sessions might walk in the door....
The biggest issue for me with the desk is acoustic footprint and reflective destruction of the room acoustics. After hearing my previous room WITHOUT the desk, I barely recognized it, and I knew what I had to do with the next room. Without significant and expensive acoustic mitigation and doing things right, just putting a desk in a room is going to cause more problems that it helps. IMO
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Post by jcoutu1 on May 27, 2016 10:31:11 GMT -6
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Post by jcoutu1 on May 27, 2016 10:34:21 GMT -6
No desk needed IMO. Personally, I have a 120 input automated D&R Orion X (fantastic console) in storage. I do not feel the "need" or desire to install it now. It is awesome for tracking, but for mixing, my new hybrid setup is significantly more fun, quicker and gets me from point A to point B faster and more efficiently. To do OTB with a console and outboard you need probably $200k investment IMO. At least that's what I would need if starting from scratch. It might be able to be done for $120k depending on your needs, but it is an expensive proposition to do "right" and have enough to cover whatever sessions might walk in the door.... The biggest issue for me with the desk is acoustic footprint and reflective destruction of the room acoustics. After hearing my previous room WITHOUT the desk, I barely recognized it, and I knew what I had to do with the next room. Without significant and expensive acoustic mitigation and doing things right, just putting a desk in a room is going to cause more problems that it helps. IMO $120k in gear to do an outboard mix? My rig is nowhere near that, but I'm sure you could do a decent mix with it. |
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Post by popmann on May 27, 2016 10:58:53 GMT -6
I think the first thing you need to do if all you've ever work on is software is see how little DSP you can use to mix. That's both "free"....and will determine how much processing type hardware you need.
But, if you're going to be hard core "everything" analog (other than capture/playback)....it will get crazy expensive, because you can't submix in the software--and once you get into needing 32ch+ IO for computer systems.....and boards big enough to handle that....with enough flexible EQ to deal with that many tracks*....you increase the cost by a shit ton over having a 16 channel analog summing box with a patchbay and a rack of nice goodies to patch in as needed. Which people will call "hybrid".
*if you've not figured this out--the more tracks you use, the more manipulation it takes to shoehorn them all together. So, see the first suggestion and also apply it to tracks and channel at mix
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,966 
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Post by ericn on May 27, 2016 11:10:50 GMT -6
Finding the Board is the easy part! i/o and the never ending quest for outboard! Good luck!
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Post by kilroyrock on May 27, 2016 11:37:25 GMT -6
The biggest thing is having a desk. I could be totally out of the box (other than filters I guess) with my mix rig, but I choose to work hybrid. I have a desk full of eq, 24 channels of outboard compressors, 12 channels of outboard eq (plus 8 channels of tilt eq and 4 channels of AirBand), a TC stereo reverb, and 2 TC delay units. Smoking deals are your friend. 24 channels of outboard compressors? like 160's, stereo pairs? care to enlighten me? that's a lot of compressors.
It's amazing how hard it is to comprehend how complicated it all can be!
I wish I'd never sold my tango 24 ad/da. It may be old, but at least it gave me the io for outboard, without having any pre's to bypass. the presonus dp88 looks really good, but that's 700 bucks I'd rather spend on another pair of capi pre's
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Post by Guitar on May 27, 2016 11:49:38 GMT -6
I fantasize about this. Try not to think about it too much though, it will drive you mad. Even on the low end of things, the space, all the cabling, setup, cost of components, gets very expensive, very quickly.
I think the smartest approach is just to chip away at it whenever you can afford to. Maybe in 5-10-20 years you'll be up to your ears in gears. It's a slow process, but the reward is pretty large. Just keep in mind that people have done a lot more, with a lot less.
If you can find a way to actually earn respectable money for your work in audio, that would probably vastly accelerate the process. There's a lot of hustle involved with that, though.
Really it's amazing the stuff we get to have now, compared to even the late 90's or whatever. Even 10 years ago I never dreamed I would have the setup I have now. Being a gearhead seems to naturally produce a certain result over time. Have fun with it!
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Post by Guitar on May 27, 2016 11:53:00 GMT -6
The biggest thing is having a desk. I could be totally out of the box (other than filters I guess) with my mix rig, but I choose to work hybrid. I have a desk full of eq, 24 channels of outboard compressors, 12 channels of outboard eq (plus 8 channels of tilt eq and 4 channels of AirBand), a TC stereo reverb, and 2 TC delay units. Smoking deals are your friend. 24 channels of outboard compressors? like 160's, stereo pairs? care to enlighten me? that's a lot of compressors.
It's amazing how hard it is to comprehend how complicated it all can be!
I wish I'd never sold my tango 24 ad/da. It may be old, but at least it gave me the io for outboard, without having any pre's to bypass. the presonus dp88 looks really good, but that's 700 bucks I'd rather spend on another pair of capi pre's
The DP88 is really, really good. I just got mine this month. If you shop around you can find open box ones for $500 or $550. |
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Post by jcoutu1 on May 27, 2016 12:17:10 GMT -6
The biggest thing is having a desk. I could be totally out of the box (other than filters I guess) with my mix rig, but I choose to work hybrid. I have a desk full of eq, 24 channels of outboard compressors, 12 channels of outboard eq (plus 8 channels of tilt eq and 4 channels of AirBand), a TC stereo reverb, and 2 TC delay units. Smoking deals are your friend. 24 channels of outboard compressors? like 160's, stereo pairs? care to enlighten me? that's a lot of compressors.
It's amazing how hard it is to comprehend how complicated it all can be!
I wish I'd never sold my tango 24 ad/da. It may be old, but at least it gave me the io for outboard, without having any pre's to bypass. the presonus dp88 looks really good, but that's 700 bucks I'd rather spend on another pair of capi pre's
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Post by kilroyrock on May 27, 2016 12:27:42 GMT -6
You got some good stuff there, jcoutu1 |
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Post by jcoutu1 on May 27, 2016 12:29:40 GMT -6
You got some good stuff there, jcoutu1 Got lucky on some deals. |
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Post by kilroyrock on May 27, 2016 12:43:13 GMT -6
I think I just fell in love with the API 2500.
Shit.
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Post by jcoutu1 on May 27, 2016 12:46:13 GMT -6
I think I just fell in love with the API 2500. Shit. I sold mine and got a second pair of Tonelux TX5C's.  |
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Post by kilroyrock on May 27, 2016 12:49:12 GMT -6
I think I just fell in love with the API 2500. Shit. I sold mine and got a second pair of Tonelux TX5C's. Ha! you and Johnkenn are kindred spirits in that regard. Let's face it, I think we all are! |
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Post by mrholmes on May 27, 2016 12:57:00 GMT -6
So there's the ITB, OTB, HYBRID arguments.
But then there are people like me who started their recording career on a TASCAM 4 track > SoundBlaster creative with N-Track world in 1998-99...
I have never known what it's like to work in an OTB world and probably never will. I get intrigued and am working on a hybrid 2 bus + ITB method. I am building a good set of pre's to supplement my generic interface pre's for big duties. I understand why people do one vs the other vs the other, but realistically.. If I was to actually mix a record completely OTB, with all this make believe AD/DA I'd need; what would the gear be I would need?
Would I focus on having a desk with eq's, 2 or 3 mono compressors and 3-4 stereo compressors? 1 or 2 stereo eq's as well? Ignore the recall problems, let's focus on making a modern mix. How many reverbs? Delays?
I am trying to put in focus what it would be like to purchase that with today's money, maybe not cheaply, but more in the DIY/Prosumer cost point, where you could do a modern record radio friendly non-EDM record - say Muse or Foo Fighters or Mumford & Sons.
I am imagining needing 3-4 1176's, an LA-2a, a stereo pair of LA-3A's (thanks to GAP and warm audio this fits the pro-sumer cost level), don classics 250 eq's for a GML 8200, 2 EQP-WA's
How realistic would it be to actually purchase all of this? Would it be something you would even do? I'm figuring 20-30k in units alone to make 1k of plugins on Black Friday, with the infinite instatiations..
Is this why the hybrid method was born? best of both worlds? Are we all chasing ghosts here? This feels heavy for a Friday.
Its simple you just have to begin with it. The rest will come naturally because you will be addicted to it after a few weeks. Start out with something for the 2 bus and for single tracks. I did choose the SPL Charisma2 if the @dr.bill Tone Amp would have seen the world 10 years ago - tempting. After I had four pieces of HW hardwired to my interface the console was the logical step because it made things super easy in tracking. I did choose a low end console an Allen and Heath ZED and I never looked back because it sounds good - done. If you even choose low end or clone gear you can have a nice hybrid setup for a small budget. The thing is to overcome all the reviewing, overthinking - just do it. |
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Post by drbill on May 27, 2016 13:13:27 GMT -6
No desk needed IMO. Personally, I have a 120 input automated D&R Orion X (fantastic console) in storage. I do not feel the "need" or desire to install it now. It is awesome for tracking, but for mixing, my new hybrid setup is significantly more fun, quicker and gets me from point A to point B faster and more efficiently. To do OTB with a console and outboard you need probably $200k investment IMO. At least that's what I would need if starting from scratch. It might be able to be done for $120k depending on your needs, but it is an expensive proposition to do "right" and have enough to cover whatever sessions might walk in the door.... The biggest issue for me with the desk is acoustic footprint and reflective destruction of the room acoustics. After hearing my previous room WITHOUT the desk, I barely recognized it, and I knew what I had to do with the next room. Without significant and expensive acoustic mitigation and doing things right, just putting a desk in a room is going to cause more problems that it helps. IMO $120k in gear to do an outboard mix? My rig is nowhere near that, but I'm sure you could do a decent mix with it. I'm sure you can. But if you're taking a "traditional" OTB approach - with CLIENTS - who have needs which may not be YOUR needs, take a look at what traditional studios have wrapped up in outboard. If they had to buy it now and hadn't accumulated it over the years, $200k probably wouldn't even cover it. And then you need the patch bay and wiring to hook it all together to your console...... $30-60k. Minimum. I'm of course talking about a 32-64 input in line console. Could be a lot more if you have it fabricated for you - or if you have the requisite 96 input console. In my little hybrid studio I have close to $25k tied up in patch bay, interconnects and overall wiring. The previous console based studio had up and over $50k in wiring. |
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Post by jcoutu1 on May 27, 2016 13:20:00 GMT -6
$120k in gear to do an outboard mix? My rig is nowhere near that, but I'm sure you could do a decent mix with it. I'm sure you can. But if you're taking a "traditional" OTB approach - with CLIENTS - who have needs which may not be YOUR needs, take a look at what traditional studios have wrapped up in outboard. If they had to buy it now and hadn't accumulated it over the years, $200k probably wouldn't even cover it. And then you need the patch bay and wiring to hook it all together to your console...... $30-60k. Minimum. I'm of course talking about a 32-64 input in line console. Could be a lot more if you have it fabricated for you. Well yeah, the thread wasn't about the "traditional" approach though. |
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Post by drbill on May 27, 2016 13:21:54 GMT -6
I'm sure you can. But if you're taking a "traditional" OTB approach - with CLIENTS - who have needs which may not be YOUR needs, take a look at what traditional studios have wrapped up in outboard. If they had to buy it now and hadn't accumulated it over the years, $200k probably wouldn't even cover it. And then you need the patch bay and wiring to hook it all together to your console...... $30-60k. Minimum. I'm of course talking about a 32-64 input in line console. Could be a lot more if you have it fabricated for you. Well yeah, the thread wasn't about the "traditional" approach though. In my world / experience, OTB IS traditional. Even if you're using a DAW as a tape recorder. |
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Post by swurveman on May 27, 2016 13:27:18 GMT -6
The biggest thing is having a desk. I could be totally out of the box (other than filters I guess) with my mix rig, but I choose to work hybrid. I have a desk full of eq, 24 channels of outboard compressors, 12 channels of outboard eq (plus 8 channels of tilt eq and 4 channels of AirBand), a TC stereo reverb, and 2 TC delay units. Smoking deals are your friend. You have a lot of outboard EQ and preamps. Did you ever do a cost analysis of your rig compared to an API 1608? I ask because I want to get on a console as well. |
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Post by jcoutu1 on May 27, 2016 13:49:06 GMT -6
The biggest thing is having a desk. I could be totally out of the box (other than filters I guess) with my mix rig, but I choose to work hybrid. I have a desk full of eq, 24 channels of outboard compressors, 12 channels of outboard eq (plus 8 channels of tilt eq and 4 channels of AirBand), a TC stereo reverb, and 2 TC delay units. Smoking deals are your friend. You have a lot of outboard EQ and preamps. Did you ever do a cost analysis of your rig compared to an API 1608? I ask because I want to get on a console as well. Nah, not even close to a 1608 with just my EQ and Pres. My whole setup wouldn't even cover a used 1608, plus I'd want more than the 16 channels. |
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Post by mdmitch2 on May 27, 2016 13:59:42 GMT -6
I'm going this route too (on the cheap as much as possible). One thing you can do is look at local studios (nice ones), and check out their gear collections to see what's reasonable. In doing so myself, I've found the nicer studios in my area (raleigh/durham) have the below at a minimum. I also put what I've found to be a good price for used/diy versions of everything. The console of course is the most expensive bit, and if you're buying used (which is basically required in this scenario if you want something decent), you're going to have to be your own tech, build you own cables, do all your own wiring, etc.
24+ channel console w/preamps and EQs --> $7,000+
console cabling --> $1,500+
4-8 Channels of additional outboard EQ ad Pre's -->$2,800
20+ channels of Compression, and often much more (including 2-buss) --> $8,000
2-3 nice reverb units --> $1,000
2-3 nice delay/fx units --> $1,200
2 or more de-essers --> $700
24+ Channels of Conversion --> $2,500
Total Used/Diy Price on the low end (but still nice stuff!): $24,700
Not to mention for the full studios you'll need nice monitors, and acoustic treatment, equipment racks, mic stands, cables, headphones, headphone distribution, power management, and bunch of nice instruments and mics. Easily another 20k for that!
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,966
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Post by ericn on May 27, 2016 14:08:08 GMT -6
Remember the traditional analog studio standard for outboard for many years was
2 La2
2 1176
2 160xt a x
Later SSL buss comp
2 Neve modules
2 512
2 550
2 560
Plus some to taste
2 delays to taste
Lexicon
Rev
spx
Build over time and use plugs where you can till you can afford
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