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Post by wiz on Jun 5, 2016 16:28:57 GMT -6
I started to type a reply.. but then thought
go watch this
cheers
Wiz
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Post by kcatthedog on Jun 5, 2016 17:06:30 GMT -6
Perfect : good on ya Mate !
For his set up with a patchbay, would you normal or half normal the PB ?
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Post by M57 on Jun 5, 2016 17:54:09 GMT -6
Perfect : good on ya Mate ! For his set up with a patchbay, would you normal or half normal the PB ? What does 'normal' mean?
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,949
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Post by ericn on Jun 5, 2016 18:10:11 GMT -6
Perfect : good on ya Mate ! For his set up with a patchbay, would you normal or half normal the PB ? Personal preference, 1/2 normal only top row of jacks activates the switching full normal both do, I have personal preference for full less thinking involved when patching!
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Post by M57 on Jun 5, 2016 18:15:27 GMT -6
I started to type a reply.. but then thought go watch this cheers Wiz Yeah - That's the first one I found. (Funny he's got the same D/A A/D interface and I've watched a bazillion Logic videos but I never watched that one before) Still have to pump up the output but I can do it right in the I/O plug. Also the ping automatically aligns thngs. That's a great find. Anyway, after playing with that and getting a little more of a feel for the comp, I went with the splitter solution (thanks ericn ) - one through the WA-2A, and the other straight from the D4 (is there any reason I shouldn't track this way all the time?). What was cool about that is that I was able to easily A/B a number of comp plugs on the naked track against the WA-2A using the mute switches on the X-Touch so I didn't know what I was listening to until I looked. At some point, I'll need to print and use the ABXer to make it a bit more clinical. I have to say that after using the real thing, the virtual stuff is very nice.. In particular, I liked the Logic's 'Platinum' for transparency, the 'Studio VCA' (Focusrite Red emulation) was smooth and the Vintage Opto (LA-2A emulation) is OK, similar albeit not as nice a color. Regardless, the WA-2A is always softer and all the virtual comps come across a bit sterile in comparison to the WA-2A. The only comp that gave it a run in the this-feels-analog department was the MJUC. I could get a somewhat similar coloration with the MK2 setting (strangely enough, that's an 1176 emulation), but I find that all of the MJUC settings have a decidedly metallic sheen to them, and after living with them for a while, I tend go back to the Logic stuff. That said, I will often use the MJUC in line with other comps, mixing it in at 50% or so. Back to the WA-2A. It somehow tames the lower mid-range and plosives of my vocal much more musically than any of the virtual comps. Picking nits, I'm wondering if there's a little flavor dip in the 5-6k range that is part of the 'soft' but can also come across as pinched (Doesn't matter if I'm hitting it hard or not using any gain reduction at all - I hear it regardless.) Like Martin, I'm questioning how good a match the Dizengoff D4 is in the chain, I love its dimensionality and color and I'm still preferring it over the Focusrite and the Liquid pre's in the Focusrite, but it's just SOO hard to tame - the damn things has so much mojo - I absolutely love having the D4's for my piano. Anyway, at this point I'm SUPER happy with my gear - but closely watching Martin's search for a happy 1073.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jun 5, 2016 18:31:18 GMT -6
Perfect : good on ya Mate ! For his set up with a patchbay, would you normal or half normal the PB ? What does 'normal' mean? It refers to how the signal flows through the patchbay and by implication how you can grab it for patching. Here is an article from sweetwater. Patch bays and the differences between normal and half-normal operation. By Sweetwater on May 25, 2001, 12:00 AM Like +1 Tweet “I don’t understand the normal function on patch bays. Specifically, what is the difference between normal and half-normal, and when would I use one over the other?” First, check out the definitions in our WFTD archives. The distinction should be clearer once you read those. In order for any of it to really make sense, however, you have to understand why you would want any normalled connections at all. The most effective studio wiring/patch bay designs will have the patch bay set up so it automatically routes signals to their most likely destinations. For example, if the output of your keyboard module is “normally” routed to channel 16 then you probably want to set up your patch bay so that connection is made automatically, meaning you don’t have to patch a cable between where the module is on the bay to the channel input. It’s already internally done in the bay. This is known as normalling If a patch is going to be automatically done inside of a patch bay then clearly it is important to be able to override that in case you need to route that signal somewhere else or use those inputs for something else. Thus, on a properly configured patch bay, when you plug another source into the patch point for input channel 16, as in the example above, the signal coming from the module to that point would be automatically interrupted (cut off) in favor of the signal coming in on the patch you just made. Very convenient, and one of the reasons why patch bays are so important in a working studio. So what happens to the signal coming from the module? It’s still available at its own patch point and can still be routed to another destination if need be. Once you get the general understanding of what a normal patch bay connection is and why it is important you can then begin understand the distinction between half-normal and normal (often called full normal). We’ll explain. Most patch bays have two rows of jacks, one above the other. The normal wiring convention is that outputs are on the top row and inputs are on the bottom. Outputs normally feed inputs so this logic makes sense. That module’s output would therefore appear at a jack on the top row. The corresponding channel input would appear on the jack immediately below. If they are normalled you know you do not need to make a patch for the module to feed into that input. The only question is, what conditions will break this connection? This is the difference between full normal and half-normal. If those points are wired to be half-normal then the connection between that module and the inputs will ONLY be broken when a cable is plugged into the bottom jack (the channel input jack). Plugging a cable into the top jack (the module output) will NOT break the connection. The signal will still flow down to that channel input and simultaneously appear at the end of that cable you plugged in. This effectively creates a Y cable. Now, go back and read those WFTD entries again and they should make more sense. Why would you use one over the other? The only time you really need a half-normal is when you might need to split a signal to two places. Since there is often very little downside to a half-normal you can deploy these almost anywhere you would use a full normal, even if there is only a very slight chance you might ever need the half-normal function. There are many possible examples where each is used. An interesting application of the half-normal is mixing board insert points. Here, you would have the send on the top jack and the return on the jack right below it. Without anything plugged in the signal flows through without interruption, just like your board “normally” works. If you want to insert a compressor or EQ you will use both jacks (one for sending the other for returning) so regardless of whether it is set up as half or full normal it will work the same. However, in a half-normal configuration that top jack (the send) can double as a direct out, which you can use to go to a recorder or an effects processor without interrupting the signal’s path on through the mixer. You just leave the bottom jack open for this to work. An example of where you would probably want a full normal is when you are bringing microphone signals into a mixer through a patch bay. If you need to patch the mic’s signal over to another input channel, or to an outboard preamp, you do not want it to remain connected to its normal channel, as would happen in a half-normal configuration.
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Post by Ward on Jun 5, 2016 20:27:58 GMT -6
Perfect : good on ya Mate ! For his set up with a patchbay, would you normal or half normal the PB ? Personal preference, 1/2 normal only top row of jacks activates the switching full normal both do, I have personal preference for full less thinking involved when patching! Same. But Multing is easier with a half normal... so I really need to get some Switchcraft switchable patchbays like Randge uses.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,949
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Post by ericn on Jun 5, 2016 20:34:29 GMT -6
Personal preference, 1/2 normal only top row of jacks activates the switching full normal both do, I have personal preference for full less thinking involved when patching! Same. But Multing is easier with a half normal... so I really need to get some Switchcraft switchable patchbays like Randge uses. Those Switchcrafts are awesome, not sure if they are $600 awesome though, I'll stick to good old ADC's and the smell of solder!
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Post by Randge on Jun 5, 2016 21:59:17 GMT -6
Try $899.00 list awesome now...Too expensive for me to buy any more, sadly.
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Post by wiz on Jun 5, 2016 23:14:51 GMT -6
I use the samson s patch... switchable from the front.. been reliable for me.. I have 3 48 point ones
cheers
Wiz
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 5, 2016 23:16:22 GMT -6
Half Normalled Half Normalled: plugging a patch cable into the top jack does not break the signal, but creates a Y split. Plugging into the bottom jack breaks the normal top to bottom connection and allow signal to flow from the top to the bottom jack through the patch cable. en.wikiaudio.org/images/3/3b/Half_Normalled.png
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Post by M57 on Jun 6, 2016 4:33:46 GMT -6
Now I'm really confused.. Plugging into the bottom breaks the "normal" top to bottom connection and allows the signal to flow from top to bottom. That's two opposite things. Do you mean breaks the top to back connection? When you say 'half-normalled,' does that mean split?
Anyway, is there a sonic difference between using a patchbay and a y-cable?
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jun 6, 2016 4:40:15 GMT -6
Now I'm really confused.. Plugging into the bottom breaks the "normal" top to bottom connection and allows the signal to flow from top to bottom. That's two opposite things. Do you mean breaks the top to back connection? When you say 'half-normalled,' does that mean split? Anyway, is there a sonic difference between using a patchbay and a y-cable? If a bay is half normalled, the back top flows to the back bottom. Plugging into the front top still allows the back top to flow to the back bottom, but you have the front top split to plug anywhere. Anytime you plug into the front bottom though, your top signal stops flowing. ....feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
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Post by indiehouse on Jun 6, 2016 5:05:08 GMT -6
I use the samson s patch... switchable from the front.. been reliable for me.. I have 3 48 point ones cheers Wiz Loving the Samson S patch. I was worried at first, but they are so great...and affordable!
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,949
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Post by ericn on Jun 6, 2016 6:18:47 GMT -6
Half Normalled Half Normalled: plugging a patch cable into the top jack does not break the signal, but creates a Y split. Plugging into the bottom jack breaks the normal top to bottom connection and allow signal to flow from the top to the bottom jack through the patch cable. en.wikiaudio.org/images/3/3b/Half_Normalled.pngYeah I got it reversed!
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Post by kcatthedog on Jun 6, 2016 14:39:37 GMT -6
If half normalled does not break the signal , then the original signal is still flowing through the patchbay and back to the source.
But if you patch out of the top (output/send), say to your compressor and patch the comps output into the patchbay front bottom input/ channel: this replaces the original signal and sends the comp output back to the source: correct ?
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Post by wiz on Jun 6, 2016 15:09:57 GMT -6
If half normalled does not break the signal , then the original signal is still flowing through the patchbay and back to the source. But if you patch out of the top (output/send), say to your compressor and patch the comps output into the patchbay front bottom input/ channel: this replaces the original signal and sends the comp output back to the source: correct ? yes cheers Wiz
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Post by M57 on Jun 6, 2016 15:53:54 GMT -6
If half normalled does not break the signal , then the original signal is still flowing through the patchbay and back to the source. But if you patch out of the top (output/send), say to your compressor and patch the comps output into the patchbay front bottom input/ channel: this replaces the original signal and sends the comp output back to the source: correct ? yes cheers Wiz So patching out of the top and not coming back in on the bottom effectively splits the signal. Is this the same as using a Y-cable? The resistance is different, right? Does this change things sonically?
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Post by wiz on Jun 6, 2016 15:58:09 GMT -6
So patching out of the top and not coming back in on the bottom effectively splits the signal. Is this the same as using a Y-cable? The resistance is different, right? Does this change things sonically? Smarter people than me will have to answer that.. but "impedance" rather than resistance will be the thing to concern yourself with. cheers Wiz
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Post by M57 on Jun 6, 2016 16:04:28 GMT -6
So patching out of the top and not coming back in on the bottom effectively splits the signal. Is this the same as using a Y-cable? The resistance is different, right? Does this change things sonically? Smarter people than me will have to answer that.. but "impedance" rather than resistance will be the thing to concern yourself with. cheers Wiz Well actually, if it comes down to the price of a patchbay over a y-cable, I could run into resistance from my wife - but point well taken.
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Post by rowmat on Jun 6, 2016 17:32:49 GMT -6
Smarter people than me will have to answer that.. but "impedance" rather than resistance will be the thing to concern yourself with. cheers Wiz Well actually, if it comes down to the price of a patchbay over a y-cable, I could run into resistance from my wife - but point well taken. As long as you have the capacity to overcome her resistance and inductor into the world of GAS then I really don't see watt the problem is.
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Post by chasmanian on Jun 6, 2016 17:42:52 GMT -6
I don't know much about this subject. I cannot tell you a good definition for impedance. but in the spirit of trying to be helpful, I have done some research and I can tell you what resistance is. resistance is futile. I found this in the following wiki: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borg_(Star_Trek)"Resistance is futile" "Individual Borg rarely speak. Instead, they send a collective audio message to their targets, stating that "resistance is futile", generally followed by a declaration that the target in question will be assimilated and its "biological and technological distinctiveness" will be added to their own. The exact phrasing varies and evolves over the various series episodes and film. One phrase, from TNG, is: "We are the Borg. Your biological and technological distinctiveness will be added to our own. Resistance is futile." The complete phrase used in Star Trek: First Contact, as performed by Jeff Coopwood is: "We are the Borg. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile."
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Post by kcatthedog on Jun 6, 2016 17:45:19 GMT -6
Man, I just wanted to talk optal compression, my thread topic is hanging by a thread : what the fuck happened ?
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Post by Ward on Jun 6, 2016 22:05:19 GMT -6
Man, I just wanted to talk optal compression, my thread topic is hanging by a thread : what the fuck happened ? You have been DERAILED!!! BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
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Post by joey808 on Jun 8, 2016 13:52:39 GMT -6
Was just thinking the same. Turned into a patchbay thread.
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