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Post by jcoutu1 on Nov 12, 2016 9:47:21 GMT -6
Hey everyone! Finally made the jump over here from Gearslutz! I'll be in a position to do a little upgrading in the next few months and it led me to this test. I'm still on my stock Apollo 8 Quad Thunderbolt, and I've really been craving an upgrade on the digital end. I like my mixes with the Apollo but, I always feel like there is just this light smearing going on that I can't seem to overcome. Every time I hear a Burl mix, I feel like that's what I'm missing. On the other hand, I've heard some test where the Apollo is clocked by a BLA clock or something similar, and it has a similar effect to the Burl. It seems like there is just a little more something along the lines of clarity, width and presence that isn't an eq thing. The new micro clock mkiii xb just came out for like 1200 bucks. The Burl is maybe 1800 used. Which one would you guys go for if you had the option? I'm kinda torn and I can't afford both. Thanks in advance! I went with this... realgearonline.com/thread/2161/secret-project-svart-ad-converters
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Post by nick8801 on Nov 12, 2016 10:20:46 GMT -6
Hmm diy? Looks really cool. I do like diy but this might be a little much for me. I think I'm gonna go Burl. I can always use that as a master clock, and I like what I've heard with the Apollo clocked to a Burl.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Nov 12, 2016 10:46:48 GMT -6
Hmm diy? Looks really cool. I do like diy but this might be a little much for me. I think I'm gonna go Burl. I can always use that as a master clock, and I like what I've heard with the Apollo clocked to a Burl. It's sold pre-built and I use it as my master clock for my Tascam UH-7000.
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Post by ragan on Nov 12, 2016 11:01:20 GMT -6
Hmm diy? Looks really cool. I do like diy but this might be a little much for me. I think I'm gonna go Burl. I can always use that as a master clock, and I like what I've heard with the Apollo clocked to a Burl. Hey Nick. I'd say go Burl (or another great converter) over shelling out 1200 bones for a clock. Or actually, if I were in your position, I'd look hard at a used Symphony MKI 8x8. As for the clocking, I clocked my SF Apollo to my Burl and I'm not convinced it made a difference. When I would test it blind I couldn't pick it out. But Burl conversion does indeed sound sweet. I just didn't find it was worth the money per channel once I went to the BF Apollo. My opinion only of course.
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 12, 2016 11:05:16 GMT -6
Hey everyone! Finally made the jump over here from Gearslutz! I'll be in a position to do a little upgrading in the next few months and it led me to this test. I'm still on my stock Apollo 8 Quad Thunderbolt, and I've really been craving an upgrade on the digital end. I like my mixes with the Apollo but, I always feel like there is just this light smearing going on that I can't seem to overcome. Every time I hear a Burl mix, I feel like that's what I'm missing. On the other hand, I've heard some test where the Apollo is clocked by a BLA clock or something similar, and it has a similar effect to the Burl. It seems like there is just a little more something along the lines of clarity, width and presence that isn't an eq thing. The new micro clock mkiii xb just came out for like 1200 bucks. The Burl is maybe 1800 used. Which one would you guys go for if you had the option? I'm kinda torn and I can't afford both. Thanks in advance! Welcome, nick8801 - glad you're here!
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Post by nick8801 on Nov 12, 2016 12:55:58 GMT -6
Thanks guys. Happy to be here!
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Post by stratboy on Nov 12, 2016 13:29:20 GMT -6
John, did you finally end up with a micro clock?
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 12, 2016 14:56:08 GMT -6
No. still using the svart with the Apollo
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Post by wiz on Nov 12, 2016 15:07:32 GMT -6
I saw this pop up, and didn't notice it wasn't posted now...so I listened to the test in the first post...
I thought B.
Then I realised it was from ages back.... I looked through and saw my original comment that I liked B...
8)
I was relieved... .LOL
still like B
cheers
Wiz
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Post by veggieryan on Nov 12, 2016 16:07:22 GMT -6
Hmm diy? Looks really cool. I do like diy but this might be a little much for me. I think I'm gonna go Burl. I can always use that as a master clock, and I like what I've heard with the Apollo clocked to a Burl. Hey Nick. I'd say go Burl (or another great converter) over shelling out 1200 bones for a clock. Or actually, if I were in your position, I'd look hard at a used Symphony MKI 8x8. As for the clocking, I clocked my SF Apollo to my Burl and I'm not convinced it made a difference. When I would test it blind I couldn't pick it out. But Burl conversion does indeed sound sweet. I just didn't find it was worth the money per channel once I went to the BF Apollo. My opinion only of course. I couldn't agree more. I also had limited success with BF Apollo with great external clocks. The symphony is the upgrade you are looking for and the price is right on the MK1's. You can run it in standalone mode as the AD/DA converter for the Apollo via ADAT/Spidf. If 8x8 is too much you can score 2x6 for close to 1200 or less these days. This is a HUGE jump up from the Apollo conversion and sound to my ear and you speak like you are hearing what was bothering my ears about the Apollo. Remember, it's not just the digital side that you are upgrading but also the analog input and output components as well as the clock with the Symphony. Trust your ears. I know I am glad I did. Let us know if you do and how it works out.
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 12, 2016 18:13:23 GMT -6
What are the SF Symphonies going for these days?
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Post by nick8801 on Nov 12, 2016 18:16:37 GMT -6
Hey Nick. I'd say go Burl (or another great converter) over shelling out 1200 bones for a clock. Or actually, if I were in your position, I'd look hard at a used Symphony MKI 8x8. As for the clocking, I clocked my SF Apollo to my Burl and I'm not convinced it made a difference. When I would test it blind I couldn't pick it out. But Burl conversion does indeed sound sweet. I just didn't find it was worth the money per channel once I went to the BF Apollo. My opinion only of course. I couldn't agree more. I also had limited success with BF Apollo with great external clocks. The symphony is the upgrade you are looking for and the price is right on the MK1's. You can run it in standalone mode as the AD/DA converter for the Apollo via ADAT/Spidf. If 8x8 is too much you can score 2x6 for close to 1200 or less these days. This is a HUGE jump up from the Apollo conversion and sound to my ear and you speak like you are hearing what was bothering my ears about the Apollo. Remember, it's not just the digital side that you are upgrading but also the analog input and output components as well as the clock with the Symphony. Trust your ears. I know I am glad I did. Let us know if you do and how it works out. I've always wanted a symphony! I don't really need all the extra i/o, but it might be nice. Mostly I'm just tracking one or two channels at a time, even with drums. I won't be able to purchase either for a few months but I like looking ahead. I'll definitely report back with what I end up with!
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 12, 2016 18:22:14 GMT -6
Man, I don't know if the Burl is worth it for the price. I - and several other people thought it could be a little bright when pushed. Maybe not bright. But very hifi. The Blackface Apollo is really good.
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Post by indiehouse on Nov 12, 2016 18:44:48 GMT -6
I'm on a BF Apollo 16, and I've toyed with the idea of picking up a used Symphony, but everything I've read leads me to believe the difference might not be worth the price to switch. There are those who are steadfast in their belief that the Symphony is still far superior, but there are just as many, if not more, who believe the difference is subtle at best, especially comparing the upgraded DA conversion of the BF Apollo 16 to the Symphony MKI. I'm confident in my choice that it's not a worthwhile place to spend dollars, at least for now. Maybe the Symphony MKII makes the difference more apparent. But, I'm happy with what I've got!
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Post by ChaseUTB on Nov 13, 2016 2:38:20 GMT -6
Again veggieryan we all respect your opinion on how you prefer the symphony over the Apollo's conversion and I/o, however we all know it's not a huge jump up conversion wise Not to mention the Symoh mk1 fan and heat and noise problems that every unit is plagued with.. My Apollo is dead quiet, no fan, no heat Have a great day
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Post by indiehouse on Nov 13, 2016 6:58:03 GMT -6
I should say that reading something on the forums is not the same as listening with my own ears, and it may very well be a matter of preference and not a matter of 'better than.' It's entirely possible that I might prefer the sound of the Symphony to the BF Apollo 16. But that test would cost me money, and I'm just not seeing an overwhelming wave of opinion from those who've heard both that the Symphony MKI is empirically better, or even an overwhelming preference. It seems polarized at best, and that's enough for me not to dip my toe.
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Post by nick8801 on Nov 13, 2016 7:21:19 GMT -6
That brightness/Hifi thing is something I very much like!
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Post by ludwigvanbeartrap on Nov 13, 2016 11:24:35 GMT -6
Nice that this thread was resurrected. Put me in the B group. The Burl stamp is just a bit too strong for my tastes on this type of tune. I have a feeling some other element in the mastering chain might improve B a bit, while I'm not sure how A can benefit from further processing. Maybe run B through an OCL-2 at min settings for a little sparkle?? BTW, I find my BF Apollo sounds better when clocked to an Antelope Pure 2.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 14, 2016 9:09:24 GMT -6
I had the Burl for a week. I wish I still had it. It's got the kind of sound I like. I've heard tracks done with the Symphony, and liked them over the Apollo. So, comparing the Symphony to the Burl would be interesting to me. The Burl was solid, plug and play, no issues at all.
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Post by svart on Nov 14, 2016 9:19:36 GMT -6
Hmm diy? Looks really cool. I do like diy but this might be a little much for me. I think I'm gonna go Burl. I can always use that as a master clock, and I like what I've heard with the Apollo clocked to a Burl. It's not DIY. It's a full-fledged product. I only have a couple left from the last batch though.
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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 14, 2016 10:15:52 GMT -6
One thing about burl A/B comparisons, as you can drive the burl transformers before its converters that will really affect the sound quality. We are talking converters in isolation, but a big part of the burl sonic difference , I think stems from its transformers before its converters.
At one point, I had a 2192, the burl ( essentially the 2192 mkii) and a black lion audio modded silver face apollo here and now I have the bf apollo.
for me the burl was like dialling in rich dark chocolate, very nice but not all the time.
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 14, 2016 15:56:51 GMT -6
Well you can push the signal going into the burl to get more transformer sound...but you're not actually driving anything with the burl. The attenuator is after the transformers. Plus, popmann you wanna describe what happens when you hit the burl transformers hard? (It gets sunny)
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Post by ragan on Nov 14, 2016 16:19:55 GMT -6
Well you can push the signal going into the burl to get more transformer sound...but you're not actually driving anything with the burl. The attenuator is after the transformers. Plus, popmann you wanna describe what happens when you hit the burl transformers hard? (It gets sunny) I think that's what Matt was saying. You push the signal going into the Burl to hit the Burl's transformer harder and then attentuate that down with the Burl's attenuation so the actual ADC in there isn't getting clipped. Would there ever be a case where you'd be driving anything "with" an ADC? That's always the last stop on the train isn't it?
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Post by chasmanian on Nov 14, 2016 16:41:54 GMT -6
Hmm diy? Looks really cool. I do like diy but this might be a little much for me. I think I'm gonna go Burl. I can always use that as a master clock, and I like what I've heard with the Apollo clocked to a Burl. It's not DIY. It's a full-fledged product. I only have a couple left from the last batch though. these things just rock. I am an extremely happy customer. highly recommend.
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Post by popmann on Nov 14, 2016 18:18:09 GMT -6
It gets brighter. But, like tape, rolls the highs off transients at the same time--which makes it "good bright". No one complains about anything being too bright. Quite the opposite. It's "bad bright" that people call "too bright"--mostly revolving around transients--be that consonants in vocals or the pick strum of the acoustic....
Anyway, yes I discovered that by accident....I was wondering why you guys kept describing it as a "bright converter"....one day though some oversight ended up cutting a few tracks too hot, or as most call it "normal"....and it came glaring back out of the speakers--nothing nasty, just really bright.
At nominal levels, it's a hair darker than most anything I've used...and what's odd is, when you push it a LITTLE, that rinsing away of 6-9khz icepicks happens, but otherwise, it seems the same.....the same but little nasties gone....cool....but, push it EVEN harder....and it gets really bright. But, again--it's not "bad bright". I've started to experiment with how best to exploit that during tracking. Which, I'd point out is a bit of what some are missing here in leaving it behind. We're comparing stereo summed files....and that's fine....that's AN aspect....and I'd like to (re) point out why cheap mofo me bought it after the demo with a little anecdote, actually two unrelated ones that happened during the demo:
1- dumb ass me was looking at the wrong meter for a quick level set....and cut a vocal track a solid 6db hotter than I meant to. The RME track would've needed a LOT of work. It not only clipped the ADC a few times....but, even when it didn't, it sounded what I refer to as "Mackie non linear". The Burl track, on soloing, you could hear got ever so slightly hairy where the other overed....and generally sounded great. As someone who TRACKS mostly myself....the ability to fuck up and still be able to use the take? Golden. When I was tracking other people, ie--doing the job of engineer, that didn't happen, because there was someone sitting there handling just that (me)....but, when I'm also fuctzing with my amp's tone stack and wondering if my work is like screaming into a chasm of empty despair anyway (the typical artiste) being able to keep a track despite "whoops did I turn the amp up after I set the level?"....Golden.
2- You can get #1 from a lot of really nice converters with solid power supply and analog section design. Not exactly the same (they'd likely have the overs--just less of the weird non linear sound in the rest of the track)....but, here's was what got the checkbook out. And you computer centric guys, potentially righfully don't care....but, I did a lot of testing with multed tracks--so, I'd record a take of whatever through both ADCs at once and then process and "fuck with them". When using things like VCC/NLS abd Fairchild and Pultec plug ins....I simply heard only a small improvement with the Burl. Not enough to justify the price for cheap ass me. BUT....use the stock plug ins. The ones that are simple function. Burl was NIGHT AND DAY better. As someone whose goal as I downsized to my rig being "just for me" again....the LAST thing I want to do is continue dumping money into plug ins, and having to use X platform so that I CAN use said plug ins....are they compatible with....the new computer? I've had third party plug ins ruin recalls more than once. And if the market ever answers my prayers for a stand alone HD recorder....plug the Burl into the AES/SPDIF....and same sound. Anyway--here's the punchline--Burl+built in DSP was usually better than the RME+analog modeled stuffs. Not equal. Better.
Anyway--for me, #2 is huge. In a day and age where you can track 48trks of 24/96 to an iPad or any couple hundo machine off Craigslist(maybe with added SSD)....the ability to make myself genuinely happy with what has become the fairly standard set of DAW DSP toolset of whatever system is inexpensively/conveniently available to me is of great value. Not to mention that yes--if I have the budget, I'd rather sum analog....and while you can legitimately justify adding coloring/smeary plugs to individual tracks in a mix as a legit way to work--someone earlier said of these clips (I believe) that the Burl was finished, and they immediately thought the other "would be better with some mastering plug ins" (quotes despite a paraphrase to mean that was not my thought)....and I considering my feelings on people's love of "mastering plug ins" I think that's hugely telling. The Burl sounds finished. Right. Your mix should always "sound finished" without adding mastering plug ins. But, I'm old school that way.
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