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Post by M57 on Feb 9, 2016 5:56:14 GMT -6
I've noticed that folks here seem to have a preference to track vocals with some comp in chain - but (models aside) there doesn't seem to be consistency among people about which types to use. I've noticed some prefer FET, while some prefer Opto ..and some use nothing. Some use both - for instance, slicing transients off the top with a 76 and then following it up with a 2A or a Vari-mu to smooth things. Some of you might do the same thing every time because you know what works for you, but I don't doubt that some of you use different comps depending on the vocalist, mic, pre, genre, etc. I'd love to hear peoples' thoughts/suggestions.
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Post by swurveman on Feb 9, 2016 7:58:02 GMT -6
The only way I'd use compression/limiting for vocals is to catch peaks so there's no clipping. Otherwise, you better be really experienced with knowing how the vocal will sit with the entire mix before you do anything heavier.
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Post by RicFoxx on Feb 9, 2016 8:00:58 GMT -6
Personally for someone like myself who tracks everything myself and has a one room setup, I track monitoring compression only... that way I make sure Im not making a mistake that can't be reversed, I can manipulate/add compression to the track anyway I want in my proper environment! I use to have a separate control room setup that when I recorded other artist I could dial in compression and commit.
As far as compression, I love the 76 followed by an LA-2A for vocals/bass, the LA-2A on clean electric for tone, LA/3A on Dirty Electric/Background Vocals, VCA for Drums and VCA/76 for drum parallel.
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Post by EmRR on Feb 9, 2016 8:06:47 GMT -6
I always track with it. None to 1-2 dB on average, could be 10dB on peaks. RMS VCA type 99% of the time. Usually more on mix. I am apparently the rare person who is never happy with a vari-mu on vocals.
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Post by tonycamphd on Feb 9, 2016 8:46:49 GMT -6
The only way I'd use compression/limiting for vocals is to catch peaks so there's no clipping. Otherwise, you better be really experienced with knowing how the vocal will sit with the entire mix before you do anything heavier. to me this is right, i take it even further, if i'm ITB, there is 0 reason to track with compression, i have gobs of headroom with no fear of clipping, and 100's of compressors at my fingertips that can be applied in context to the track while mixing, without the multiplication of arbitrary multiplied instances of compression bringing all the nasties to the surface, even in my OTB rig, i've got approaching 40 channels of outboard compression available, the same concept applies. Rickfox's recommendation for monitoring compression is the gospel, lord hear our prayer! haha 8) |
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Post by jazznoise on Feb 9, 2016 8:53:52 GMT -6
I always track with it. None to 1-2 dB on average, could be 10dB on peaks. RMS VCA type 99% of the time. Usually more on mix. I am apparently the rare person who is never happy with a vari-mu on vocals. This, usually just my RNC set up as a peak limiter for a little polish on playback and then I'll do some riding and slower, low ratio compression thereafter. It's really more about having the customer feel more confident about the product from the get-go than it is for sonics, an overly dynamic vocal can make a rough mix seem like a total mess. I print it and the dry signal currently, in case the comp does something screwy, but usually I never need it. |
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Post by sean on Feb 9, 2016 9:00:45 GMT -6
I often use a LA-2A, trying not going past 5 dB of compression, on a vocal. I usually don't touch the settings and just use the preamp to adjust the amount of compression. It doesn't like to get hit hard, so I try to keep the peaks at 0 VU, and that puts the gain and compression around 20/30 (I can't remember). When I work with overly dynamic singers without much mic technique it helps...it helps what they are hearing in the headphones and helps me get it closer to sounding like a record going to tape. I find that the workflow that works best for me is tracking through analog compressors and/or EQ and staying in the box when mixing...of course I try to avoid using or needing much of it with good microphone placement, but capturing the sounds I want while tracking has really helped my recording. Of course, I couldn't afford/justify nice stuff worth recording through until the past couple years but I'm starting to build up a collection of pieces that I use every day.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2016 9:20:34 GMT -6
With nowadays ADs there is no need to use compression while tracking, i mean printing it on the way in.
You just have to watch the peaks don't clip at the ADC. No worries about too much noise at lower uncompressed levels with nowadays specs.
I know there are different traditional habits among european and american AEs. While in the states the AEs often like to color and shape while tracking and do less on mixing time, european AEs tend to record with as little color as possible and do coloring and shaping on mixtime. The first makes clear from the start, what the product will sound like, and the mixing engineer has a good insight in the direction. Also, the first rough mix is much nearer to the final sound. The european way leaves all possibilities to the mixing engineer, there is nothing irreversible.
As already mentioned, if tracking without compression, one can split the signal and cut the source in 2 different levels, so if the hotter one clips, you have the other one as an emergency track so you never lose a performance due to clipping. Or you do a fader ride on the in, instead of compression, like many did in the old days, but this needs a lot of practice to do right...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2016 9:28:28 GMT -6
(...but preserves transients.)
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Post by odyssey76 on Feb 9, 2016 9:43:29 GMT -6
Vocals and bass are the 2 elements that I'll track with compression every time. Get the singer or bass player to sing or play as loud as they are going to during the actual take and adjust your comps accordingly. For me, it all depends on how much experience the performers have. If I get seasoned players I'm not afraid to hit 5-7 dB. gain reduction during most dynamic sections. For less experienced players I'm using the comp to just trim the peaks.
I'm sure it just psychological but, for me, there's something sweet about the right mic-->preamp-->compressor chain. I'm pretty sure it just makes the electrons happy - kinda' like voltage "bar hopping".......
I also like to track with compression because I have very little outboard gear. It frees up what I have for mixing and I don't mind using more plugin compression if the track needs it.
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Feb 9, 2016 9:49:19 GMT -6
I often use a LA-2A, trying not going past 5 dB of compression, on a vocal. I usually don't touch the settings and just use the preamp to adjust the amount of compression. It doesn't like to get hit hard, so I try to keep the peaks at 0 VU, and that puts the gain and compression around 20/30 (I can't remember). When I work with overly dynamic singers without much mic technique it helps...it helps what they are hearing in the headphones and helps me get it closer to sounding like a record going to tape. I find that the workflow that works best for me is tracking through analog compressors and/or EQ and staying in the box when mixing...of course I try to avoid using or needing much of it with good microphone placement, but capturing the sounds I want while tracking has really helped my recording. Of course, I couldn't afford/justify nice stuff worth recording through until the past couple years but I'm starting to build up a collection of pieces that I use every day. This ^^^ A very light touch. Over-compression sounds worse to me than clipping. It takes the life right out of a performance. I seldom change the settings on a compressor either once I've found it's sweet spot. Gain stage up to it. Works like Novocain. |
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Post by Ward on Feb 9, 2016 9:56:06 GMT -6
I've noticed that folks here seem to have a preference to track vocals with some comp in chain - but (models aside) there doesn't seem to be consistency among people about which types to use. I've noticed some prefer FET, while some prefer Opto ..and some use nothing. Some use both - for instance, slicing transients off the top with a 76 and then following it up with a 2A or a Vari-mu to smooth things. Some of you might do the same thing every time because you know what works for you, but I don't doubt that some of you use different comps depending on the vocalist, mic, pre, genre, etc. I'd love to hear peoples' thoughts/suggestions. The deFacto standard in compression whilst tracking vocals is an Opto, be that an LA2a (or new clones), a CL1b or ADL. That is the bulk of your "fader riding" as well as tone thickening. 3-5db on peaks is standard. After that? The next de facto standard is an 1176 (either before or after the Opto, but I always prefer after) to catch the big peaks which can be as much as 12db for 'shouty' vocalists or those who have no microphone and/or vocal control and/or technique. Is there a de facto vocal chain? Sure. Neumann microphone - 1073 - LA2a - 1176 bluestripe. And everybody (myself included) has been trying to reinvent the wheel ever since, on a daily basis! |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2016 9:58:34 GMT -6
I'm sure it just psychological but, for me, there's something sweet about the right mic-->preamp-->compressor chain. I'm pretty sure it just makes the electrons happy - kinda' like voltage "bar hopping"....... Uhum, so i guess parallel compression makes the electrons dizzy, "left or right, man, decisions, decisions..." |
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Post by tonycamphd on Feb 9, 2016 10:22:00 GMT -6
I will do very light touch on occasion, but a few hand tying things happen when u track with compression, u lose transient information that you will never recover, u lose dynamic range that can only be recovered painstakingly if at all, you permanently bring up ur noise floor, and the biggest offender.... U BRING UP UNNATURAL AMOUNTS OF LOW LEVEL INFO THAT INDUCES THE SIZZLE AND SLICE THAT IS SO PERVASIVE IN BAD "MODERN"MIXES OF TODAY, a good sounding mix is NOT subject to trends, they are subject to the nature of human hearing biology, the end. I just don't get why anyone would take options off their table, but of course and as always, to each his own
btw, every instance of compression thereafter is a multiplication, not addition of ratio, this is why many recordings I've heard are using up to 500:1 ratios before the mutilation is over 8)
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Post by LesC on Feb 9, 2016 10:51:51 GMT -6
As I think someone else has already said, I always record vocals to two tracks, one with 1176-clone compression of up to about 6 db on the peaks and one without compression. This way I keep total flexibility if I don't like what the compressor is doing, but I have never yet had a situation where I felt that to be the case. This also eliminates an extra DA-AD conversion that would be required to process the recorded raw vocal through the analog compressor, and saves a bit of time.
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Post by schmalzy on Feb 9, 2016 11:38:50 GMT -6
I find my vocalists are typically happiest monitoring a compressed track. I'm happiest when I've got a parachute: I'm too paranoid not to take a dry vocal. So I mult it and print both.
I end up using the compressed takes most of the time but, for the few times the compressor did something weird or the vocalist jumped on something too hard, that dry vocal track saved my ass!
Pretty fast attack. Medium fast to fast release. Fairly low ratio. 6db reduction at most. Smooth and controlled is what I'm going for. Lots of waves getting just a little compression. Louder sections getting a fair bit more.
...unless it's my vocal, then I'll print both the dry and the compressed and let that compressor bang 12 db off without raising an eyebrow. I'm not a great vocalist, I'm not even sort of OK (understatement of the year - I'd describe my singing as "not good") but I'm willing to get some scuzz on the the front end.
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Post by svart on Feb 9, 2016 12:08:45 GMT -6
Almost always. I usually use an 1176, LA2A or LA4A for mild compression while tracking, around 3-5dB of GR on the highest peaks.
It's not just about taming those big transients, it's also about mojo. You get a little more harmonics from compressed peaks, and the level is a little hotter for the headphone mix return to the singer, which generally makes them sing better.
Also, because I will use the same compressors on the vocal chain later, it allows me to compress a smaller amount on mixdown where most people would use a lot more compression.
Most compressors have a lot more "character" when compressing hard, so doing it twice, lightly, keeps me from having to impart too much "character" on the track if I don't want to.
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Post by noah shain on Feb 9, 2016 12:18:12 GMT -6
Oh man...here's where I get flamed!!!!
I track rock/pop/r&b vocals with a ton of compression.
I might hit 3 compressors on the way in.
Some mild distressor on opto hitting peaks into an 1176 20:1 pegging the needle on loud parts and maybe into the 176, also working, after that.
I'll have the singer do a couple full warm up passes where I'm just adjusting gain, Eq and compression.
I always try and get the mic pre to work for me first. I'm not afraid to bury the needle there either.
I'm probably as wrong as an "engineer" can be.
I don't end up with square wave files at all. They're nice healthy wave forms.
I read a Sylvia Massey interview a long time ago where she said she wants to track a finished sounding vocal. Compressing well in to double digit reduction. I was so happy to read that because I was hiding my dirty little secret...I thought I was a closet over-compresser.
A lot of the guys I know here in LA are very aggressive with vocal compression...tracking and mix.
Maybe my records have that offensive, brittle, harsh vocal sound that we all hate and I can't hear it cause it's mine.
I don't know...
I do feel like I don't know what I'm doing when I read posts about how little everyone else is compressing but man...if I don't do it I end up with a plug in limiter on it so I can contain the vocal while we are in the tracking/rough stage.
Granted I'm doing mostly fairly dense, aggressive music.
Well, at least I'm honest!!
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Feb 9, 2016 12:29:42 GMT -6
Oh man...here's where I get flamed!!!! I track rock/pop/r&b vocals with a ton of compression. I might hit 3 compressors on the way in. Some mild distressor on opto hitting peaks into an 1176 20:1 pegging the needle on loud parts and maybe into the 176, also working, after that. I'll have the singer do a couple full warm up passes where I'm just adjusting gain, Eq and compression. I always try and get the mic pre to work for me first. I'm not afraid to bury the needle there either. I'm probably as wrong as an "engineer" can be. I don't end up with square wave files at all. They're nice healthy wave forms. I read a Sylvia Massey interview a long time ago where she said she wants to track a finished sounding vocal. Compressing well in to double digit reduction. I was so happy to read that because I was hiding my dirty little secret...I thought I was a closet over-compresser. A lot of the guys I know here in LA are very aggressive with vocal compression...tracking and mix. Maybe my records have that offensive, brittle, harsh vocal sound that we all hate and I can't hear it cause it's mine. I don't know... I do feel like I don't know what I'm doing when I read posts about how little everyone else is compressing but man...if I don't do it I end up with a plug in limiter on it so I can contain the vocal while we are in the tracking/rough stage. Granted I'm doing mostly fairly dense, aggressive music. Well, at least I'm honest!! Fair enough. Whatever you're doing it's working. Once you get used to a certain chain (and here is the big one, be able to monitor the tracking properly while it's happening which a lot of us cannot do because we are the ones doing the playing or singing), then it becomes easier to add more compression to taste. Everytime I try, I screw it up so I go minimal. |
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Post by noah shain on Feb 9, 2016 12:36:00 GMT -6
Oh man...here's where I get flamed!!!! I track rock/pop/r&b vocals with a ton of compression. I might hit 3 compressors on the way in. Some mild distressor on opto hitting peaks into an 1176 20:1 pegging the needle on loud parts and maybe into the 176, also working, after that. I'll have the singer do a couple full warm up passes where I'm just adjusting gain, Eq and compression. I always try and get the mic pre to work for me first. I'm not afraid to bury the needle there either. I'm probably as wrong as an "engineer" can be. I don't end up with square wave files at all. They're nice healthy wave forms. I read a Sylvia Massey interview a long time ago where she said she wants to track a finished sounding vocal. Compressing well in to double digit reduction. I was so happy to read that because I was hiding my dirty little secret...I thought I was a closet over-compresser. A lot of the guys I know here in LA are very aggressive with vocal compression...tracking and mix. Maybe my records have that offensive, brittle, harsh vocal sound that we all hate and I can't hear it cause it's mine. I don't know... I do feel like I don't know what I'm doing when I read posts about how little everyone else is compressing but man...if I don't do it I end up with a plug in limiter on it so I can contain the vocal while we are in the tracking/rough stage. Granted I'm doing mostly fairly dense, aggressive music. Well, at least I'm honest!! Fair enough. Whatever you're doing it's working. Once you get used to a certain chain (and here is the big one, be able to monitor the tracking properly while it's happening which a lot of us cannot do because we are the ones doing the playing or singing), then it becomes easier to add more compression to taste. Everytime I try, I screw it up so I go minimal. Makes sense to me. I'm also an aggressive tracking guy by nature. I mess with everything. Trying to get things sounding unique or different or "close to mixed". If I were working on music that wanted to sound really natural I might back off. |
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Post by Ward on Feb 9, 2016 12:41:56 GMT -6
Oh man...here's where I get flamed!!!! I track rock/pop/r&b vocals with a ton of compression. I might hit 3 compressors on the way in. Some mild distressor on opto hitting peaks into an 1176 20:1 pegging the needle on loud parts and maybe into the 176, also working, after that. I'll have the singer do a couple full warm up passes where I'm just adjusting gain, Eq and compression. I always try and get the mic pre to work for me first. I'm not afraid to bury the needle there either. I'm probably as wrong as an "engineer" can be. I don't end up with square wave files at all. They're nice healthy wave forms. I read a Sylvia Massey interview a long time ago where she said she wants to track a finished sounding vocal. Compressing well in to double digit reduction. I was so happy to read that because I was hiding my dirty little secret...I thought I was a closet over-compresser. A lot of the guys I know here in LA are very aggressive with vocal compression...tracking and mix. Maybe my records have that offensive, brittle, harsh vocal sound that we all hate and I can't hear it cause it's mine. I don't know... I do feel like I don't know what I'm doing when I read posts about how little everyone else is compressing but man...if I don't do it I end up with a plug in limiter on it so I can contain the vocal while we are in the tracking/rough stage. Granted I'm doing mostly fairly dense, aggressive music. Well, at least I'm honest!! I have no quarrel with you, and I was less honest than you were by not admitting just how much compression I actually use! LOL |
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Post by RicFoxx on Feb 9, 2016 12:48:01 GMT -6
Oh man...here's where I get flamed!!!! I track rock/pop/r&b vocals with a ton of compression. I might hit 3 compressors on the way in. Some mild distressor on opto hitting peaks into an 1176 20:1 pegging the needle on loud parts and maybe into the 176, also working, after that. I'll have the singer do a couple full warm up passes where I'm just adjusting gain, Eq and compression. I always try and get the mic pre to work for me first. I'm not afraid to bury the needle there either. I'm probably as wrong as an "engineer" can be. I don't end up with square wave files at all. They're nice healthy wave forms. I read a Sylvia Massey interview a long time ago where she said she wants to track a finished sounding vocal. Compressing well in to double digit reduction. I was so happy to read that because I was hiding my dirty little secret...I thought I was a closet over-compresser. A lot of the guys I know here in LA are very aggressive with vocal compression...tracking and mix. Maybe my records have that offensive, brittle, harsh vocal sound that we all hate and I can't hear it cause it's mine. I don't know... I do feel like I don't know what I'm doing when I read posts about how little everyone else is compressing but man...if I don't do it I end up with a plug in limiter on it so I can contain the vocal while we are in the tracking/rough stage. Granted I'm doing mostly fairly dense, aggressive music. Well, at least I'm honest!! HaHa....thats awesome! If a were a tracking engineer (with ears like yours:) in a proper tracking facility I would have absolutely no problem tracking with lots of compression. If it were not for the fact that I can monitor compressed/heavily limited signal without committing, I would have to compress on the way in (heavy compression helps me not oversing.) |
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Post by schmalzy on Feb 9, 2016 12:57:36 GMT -6
Oh man...here's where I get flamed!!!! ... Well, at least I'm honest!! I'm have the same vocal-treatment mindset as you it seems; I'm just not as commitment-ready as you are. I end up treating vocals (in a dense mix) in much the same way. I typically bang them up against a few more compressors in the mix, I'm just a bit afraid to do it during tracking. I'm always nudging toward finished in tracking but never going all the way. I think a one-room studio like mine has to have that little bit of undercommitment because I can't truly hear what anything sounds like during tracking - source in the room with me, yada yada. After tracking, I'm smashing the vocal into a fast compressor (1176-style is good for that) and then into a slower, more leveling-style compressor. I'll often toss all the vocals into a parallel buss if I need a little more smashing together after that. It's nice to have an "all vocals" buss to lift them over the louder sections of the song. |
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Post by M57 on Feb 9, 2016 13:11:20 GMT -6
So we've got some 'serial' compressors coming out "of the box."
One of the arguments for compressing on the way in has to do with getting a good performance. I have to admit compression can definitely inspire me when I'm singing. I don't have the luxury of multi-ing out a dry track, so I've got to be conservative with it.
There was a brief mention of how compressing in series is multiplicative. Is this true? ..it makes sense. For those of you who put a couple comps in line, do you consider this? ..is it desirable - i.e. part of what glues things?
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Post by svart on Feb 9, 2016 13:20:36 GMT -6
Oh man...here's where I get flamed!!!! I track rock/pop/r&b vocals with a ton of compression. I might hit 3 compressors on the way in. Some mild distressor on opto hitting peaks into an 1176 20:1 pegging the needle on loud parts and maybe into the 176, also working, after that. I'll have the singer do a couple full warm up passes where I'm just adjusting gain, Eq and compression. I always try and get the mic pre to work for me first. I'm not afraid to bury the needle there either. I'm probably as wrong as an "engineer" can be. I don't end up with square wave files at all. They're nice healthy wave forms. I read a Sylvia Massey interview a long time ago where she said she wants to track a finished sounding vocal. Compressing well in to double digit reduction. I was so happy to read that because I was hiding my dirty little secret...I thought I was a closet over-compresser. A lot of the guys I know here in LA are very aggressive with vocal compression...tracking and mix. Maybe my records have that offensive, brittle, harsh vocal sound that we all hate and I can't hear it cause it's mine. I don't know... I do feel like I don't know what I'm doing when I read posts about how little everyone else is compressing but man...if I don't do it I end up with a plug in limiter on it so I can contain the vocal while we are in the tracking/rough stage. Granted I'm doing mostly fairly dense, aggressive music. Well, at least I'm honest!! I've read a lot of interviews from top engineers.. One thing that always comes as astonishing is how much compression they actually use while tracking AND while mixing, and it's generally a LOT more than most people use. It's not uncommon to read that someone used 3-4 compressors on vocals, etc, and to get a "finished" sound on the way in. I really don't know where the "use nothing going in" thing came from. I used to believe it was the only way, but now that I'm doing a lot more to get the "finished" sound while tracking, my mixes have gotten a LOT better. Maybe it's just that I've gotten much better at instinctively knowing what sounds best going in, so I'm able to adjust to taste without fear of borking it all up, or maybe using the gear like that just adds the pizzazz that can't be obtained later.. I don't know. |
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