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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 5, 2013 14:18:14 GMT -6
Also, when I want to use a mic, I'd have to go around back of my rack, unplug the preamp input from the rack, and plug the mic in. To me, that defeats the whole purpose of cabling to a patch panel. this here is the only way i've ever used any of my outboard pre's, it's the only way I've ever seen it done in a pro studio(on a much larger scale of course), I highly recommend it, of course these are normaled into the patch bay direct to pre's(so you can re route as you see fit), the only time to fear 48v IMU is with a 1/4 inch jack, and/or ribbon mics. Lets get back on topic here..FD312 Heider!!
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 5, 2013 14:18:55 GMT -6
Aren't you always one or two clicks away from it?
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Post by LesC on Nov 5, 2013 14:48:41 GMT -6
Hi John. I guess you're right, with a 500-series single-width preamp, you are always one or two clicks away from disaster.
With something like a DMA-73, Tonebeast, or any other 19" preamp I'm aware of, there are always separate inputs dedicated to line or mic. For example, I have a mic plugged into a Tonebeast mic input, and I've got the Tonebeast line-input cabled to the patch bay. So the 48v phantom can only go to the mic, no possibility of accidentally sending it to the line-in.
Sorry for the derailing, I just wish Jeff made a 19" unit.
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Post by LesC on Nov 5, 2013 14:49:19 GMT -6
Hey, I reached 100 posts, cool!
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 5, 2013 14:58:53 GMT -6
The EL 500 2 unit rack has an an DI (HiZ)...
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Post by jsteiger on Nov 5, 2013 15:02:55 GMT -6
My analogy is this, I can shift my car into reverse flying 80mph down the highway but I don't do it. The Heider FD312 is my first offering in a fully built unit. From my viewpoint, the 500 series is a no-brainer. There is no UL or CE certification to deal with and stocking all the parts/fully built units takes up way less space. I would never say never but I really don't ever see myself manufacturing this pre in a 1RU. If you checked one out, I'd like to think you'd say this is a great reason to go 500, even though you are not a fan of the format.
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 5, 2013 15:48:00 GMT -6
Hi John. I guess you're right, with a 500-series single-width preamp, you are always one or two clicks away from disaster. again, most pieces that don't need it, will ignore 48v? what disasters specifically are you talking about?
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 5, 2013 16:07:59 GMT -6
500 series pieces were originally units pulled from api consoles, these and new designs are tremendously attractive space saving, high end pieces, that are meant to be chained to other high end pieces, the idea that these are a compromise is a serious misjudgment. It's quite the opposite in fact, trying to acquire a single piece to do a bunch of stuff at a price point, is a compromise. If you wanted, or could get a pre as versatile as a vp28, with tone shaping as powerful as a LC53a, with a good DI, it would cost $3k to get it.
IMV, Any channel strip type combo unit at a low price point, is indeed a compromise.
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Post by LesC on Nov 5, 2013 17:42:14 GMT -6
Tony, I agree with most of your last post. I would never get a single piece that does a bunch of stuff, I don't think I said I would. I agree that 500-series is the cheapest way to get high-quality stuff. I do however think the input/output limitations are a compromise, simply because of the form factor. I don't see the DMA-73 as being lower-quality than the vp28 or the Heider. Yes, it's more expensive, and I am happy to be able to make that choice. If Jeff was to make a 19" unit with a pair of Heiders, with separate mic and line inputs, I would buy it, that's all I'm saying. If others are happy with the 500-series units, I have no problem with that.
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Post by LesC on Nov 5, 2013 19:02:02 GMT -6
My analogy is this, I can shift my car into reverse flying 80mph down the highway but I don't do it. The Heider FD312 is my first offering in a fully built unit. From my viewpoint, the 500 series is a no-brainer. There is no UL or CE certification to deal with and stocking all the parts/fully built units takes up way less space. I would never say never but I really don't ever see myself manufacturing this pre in a 1RU. If you checked one out, I'd like to think you'd say this is a great reason to go 500, even though you are not a fan of the format. Sorry Jeff, I didn't see your post. I guess it's just me, thinking of some of the stupid things I've done in my studio. Pressing a wrong button on a pre would be something that I would probably be even more prone to do than shifting my car into reverse on the highway. I do believe your stuff is amazing, and maybe one day I will take up John's previous suggestion and get an EL500 and try a pair of these. I'm glad you're getting into fully built units. I have no problem with soldering, but given my day job, I have too little time for music as it is. I'd rather be spending that time recording than soldering, even if I have to pay more.
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Post by jimwilliams on Nov 11, 2013 12:21:02 GMT -6
A -115 dbu EIN spec is about 12 db noisier than a decent API preamp loaded with a proper ratio input transformer, those can do about -127 db EIN at +60 db of gain. Neve-y designs reach -124 db EIN. Either this is a noisy design or something is amiss with the measurements.
Take 12 db's of hiss off and you will hear that.
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Post by jsteiger on Nov 11, 2013 12:38:02 GMT -6
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 11, 2013 14:49:17 GMT -6
A -115 dbu EIN spec is about 12 db noisier than a decent API preamp loaded with a proper ratio input transformer, those can do about -127 db EIN at +60 db of gain. Neve-y designs reach -124 db EIN. Either this is a noisy design or something is amiss with the measurements. Take 12 db's of hiss off and you will hear that. hi Jim, I hardly feel qualified to say anything here(as if that will stop me lol), Williams and Steiger=kingkong and Godzilla 8) i'm like "atom ant"..hony with a chipmunk voice saying... I'm a huge fan of the work from both of you guys, everything i've picked up from the 2 of you, has been absolutely stellar in function. I believe the Heider is a piece designed for a very specific sound, i'd also bet that when jeff runs his spec tests, he's using real deal parameters(10k) and such, if it's noisy, it's in the original Heider console design. All the stuff he builds is very creatively conceived, and very well designed IMV, and most importantly, it sounds spectacular! I would be happy to bring a CAPI VP28 and a LC53a eq to your house, and let you run it for a for a bit(not too long 8), so you can get a feel for just how great this stuff is. I'm actively trying to figure out the $ for one of your hi speed stereo preamps, and some more Vp28's, i'd like to have enough to track the entire front end of a sizable band. From my perspective, you guys are coming from slightly different angles, but you both achieve the same end results in my world...the most useable and musical equipment i have ever owned, if it wasn't for you fella's, i would be adrift paddle free right now, and that is no BS. Jim, let me know if you want to try the Vp28, Lc53 eq, i'll be coming by later this week regardless. T
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Post by jimwilliams on Nov 13, 2013 11:24:46 GMT -6
This web site shows -110 db EIN with a 300k measurement bandwidth and an unknown gain setting. That is confusing to most readers as many don't understand how noise is measured. Typically, audio noise measurements are done with a 20~22k hz measurement bandwidth to remove out of band noise (inaudible) from the readings. This is how Audio Precision, Rode and Schwartz and Prism audio test analysers do it. EIN means equivalent input noise, it's a sum of the gain plus the signal to noise ratio. 60 db of gain is also where mic preamps are measured, simply to equalise the test perameters for easy comparisons. Measureing EIN at higher gains does not improve the specs as preamp self noise begins to wash out the differences. Typically, a 150 ohm source impedance is also used to emulate the output impedance of many microphones and the source impedance of most mic input transformers. When I test EIN of mic preamps, I also test at 50 ohms input impedance to emulate active condenser mics. That will lower the EIN to below the -129.6 db EIN of a 150 ohm resistor and it's load, IF the preamp has less noise as well. Some designs will do -133 db EIN at 50 ohms. "A" weighting is also to be avoided as it skews the real readings and gives those devices that choose to use A weighting filters a gain in specs without showing the actual noise. I have seen in the last 15 years or so a complete lack of standardised audio tests and a lot of skewed, mis-applied test proceedures in order to either confuse the end user or to bump up their gear test measurements. I also realize many do not share my concepts of honest audio reproduction, but we are not talking about any of that, this is noise. Noise has nothing to do with sound or any audio influenced colors, it's noise, plain and simple. Either you accept a certain amount or flavor of noise or you do not. I'm in the second catagory as I find any sort or type of noise unacceptable. With modern design techniques and carefully choosen components and designs, very low noise specs are achievable. As I mentioned, an API opamp coupled to a proper turns ratio mic input transformer at +60 db of gain with a 20~22k measurement bandwidth will yield a -127 db EIN spec at 150 ohms impedance, as long as the DUT (device under test) is properly screened and the power supply is clean. Anything less than that is either a mistake or a problem. Many won't notice this problem using high output condenser mics, but connect a low output dynamic or ribbon mic and that hiss will eat you up. It's 2013 and there is no valid reason to print excess noise to your converters anymore, unless it is to be used as an effect, like emulating tape hiss. As long as buyers do not challenge the manufacturer's to present honest test results, don't expect them to suddenly become honest on their own. We have the manufacturers we deserve, sort of like government. It's up to the end users to demand honesty.
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 13, 2013 13:11:20 GMT -6
I have this preamp...It ain't noisy...case closed.
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 13, 2013 15:30:04 GMT -6
lets not forget the Heider is a 2 stage pre/channel fader, if your comparing apples to apples? Jeffs designs stand alone in this regard, i don't know of another pre/channel fader combo?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2013 23:52:29 GMT -6
lol is Jim Williams Ethan Winer's brother?
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 14, 2013 10:42:21 GMT -6
Jim is a super smart guy - I'm sure he makes ver valid points here...they are just a little above my layman's knowledge, and I'm not sure they effect anything in practical use. Or, at least, my practical use. Maybe these are noisier if you're cranking these up to 75db with an ancient ribbon mic - I just don't see that as an everyday application - and I don't want someone to get the idea that these are "noisy" preamps.
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Post by Calvin on Nov 14, 2013 12:01:44 GMT -6
Jim is a super smart guy - I'm sure he makes ver valid points here...they are just a little above my layman's knowledge, and I'm not sure they effect anything in practical use. Or, at least, my practical use. Maybe these are noisier if you're cranking these up to 75db with an ancient ribbon mic - I just don't see that as an everyday application - and I don't want someone to get the idea that these are "noisy" preamps. I've learned a lot by reading Jim's posts over the course of time. I very much value his participation in this and other forums (fora?).
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 14, 2013 12:23:34 GMT -6
I appreciate Jim posting here too!
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 14, 2013 12:33:55 GMT -6
Jim and Jeff are two of the best...period. I wish people other than JK, who've tried the Heider would chime in, anything other than this is unfounded speculation, and is not fair to Jeff. I use the 2 stage vp28's to death, and they are faaaaar from noisy, and they rank #1 as the most versatile pre i've ever used. I also own a ton of Jim Williams stuff...= awesome, IME the stuff these guys provide are interchangeable as far as quality goes, J and J's products occupy the core of my entire set up, couldn't be, and wouldn't want to be without either.
I think we should stay on topic here, and let this thread be about the Heider, and peoples experiences with the Heider, If i could drop the coin right now, i'd put up some samples of acoustic guitar-C12-Heider vs acoustic guitar-C12- fast color free burr brown pre, so we'd have something tangible to talk about.... If anyone could do that, it would be awesome..
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Post by jsteiger on Nov 14, 2013 13:17:47 GMT -6
We have more clips in the works. Scott is cutting up a long file into 3 segments now of Randy Kohrs melting a resonator gtr, which is far more interesting to my ears than an acoustic. It was stereo mic'ed with some Peluso's. We did the same 3 HiZ-Pad combination settings as we did with the JK vox.
I am also near to posting some elec crunch gtr and female vox files. Clint Lagerberg on gtr and the talented Whitney Duncan on vox.
Hopefully before the weekend on the above mentioned clips. We have video that accompanies both sessions but that will not be up for a little bit yet. Rack-N-Roll Rob and Tom are still collecting more vid around Nashville. Our very own JK will make a rare video appearance too!
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Post by LesC on Nov 14, 2013 13:35:08 GMT -6
I always enjoy reading Jim's posts. Even when I don't fully understand, his posts are very informative. Jim has a perfectionist scientific approach to technology, and I appreciate that. It doesn't necessarily mean that the last 0.00000001% of some form of distortion or noise will be apparent to a listener, but I think his approach advances the engineering science.
Jeff has a very different approach. He prefers to try to recreate the sounds from the past that most of us love, and if possible, improve on the equipment making those sounds. And he does an amazing job!
We're very fortunate to have both approaches represented.
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 14, 2013 13:45:20 GMT -6
Our very own JK will make a rare video appearance too! exciting news! will JK be smoking the pipe? he's a sophisticated white haired gentleman of course, but the pipe is what gives him his strength 8) hope to see a more svelte version of Steiger in the vids also.
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Post by jsteiger on Nov 15, 2013 9:20:35 GMT -6
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